Evidence for God from Science

I recently came across one of the greatest little booklets of all time . . . it's called Seven Reasons NOT to Ask Jesus into Your Heart, by Dennis Rosker, pastor of Duluth Bible Church. Summary as follows:

#1 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT IS NEVER FOUND IN THE BIBLE.

#2 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT IS NOT HOW ONE IS SAVED.

#3 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT REQUIRES NO UNDERSTANDING OF THE GOSPEL OF GRACE TO DO IT.

#4 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT CONFUSES THE MEANS OF SALVATION WITH THE RESULTS OF SALVATION.

#5 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT EITHER RESULTS IN NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION OR BRINGS A FALSE ASSURANCE TO PEOPLE.

#6 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because REVELATION 3:20 DOES NOT TEACH IT.

#7 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT DOES NOT CLARIFY THE CONDITION OF SALVATION, IT CONFUSES IT -- ESPECIALLY WITH CHILDREN.

You can review the argument behind each of these reasons at http://www.duluthbible.org/seven_reasons.htm. These are phenomenal, and I think this does a good deal in helping people understand the common misconceptions we have about our doctrines of salvation . . .

What is salvation? It is the placement of one's trust in Jesus Christ's promise to grant eternal life upon belief based on His person and work, and John 3:16 says: “. . . he who believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Thoughts?

God bless

Don't agree. Asking Jesus into your heart is (contrary to what the author states) surrendering, trusting, believing and repenting. All those things are necessary. Even the devil believes in Him ; obviously, that is not all that is needed.

I think this is a very literal idea of what people actually mean in asking Christ into their hearts. The heart is seen as the seat of our desires. Asking Christ into our hearts is essentially meaning we declare our desire to follow Christ. I fail to see anything unscriptural about this, especially in light of Paul's words: "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 9:10)

I think this is nitpicking, and it is good for people to ask Christ into their hearts since any sort of method which helps people to embrace Christ personally ought to be encouraged. Christ knows what a person essentially means, even if people may have a literal understanding that Christ literally resides in their physical heart.

Kurieuo

I was taught from early childhood on that to be saved and avoid the fires of hell I must get on my knees and ask Jesus into my heart.

I learned later that all three aspects are false.

This old cliché was so ingrained it became a natural response whenever asked about salvation.

It's a substitute for what God's people are called to do and that is repent for our transgressions (1 John 3:4, KJV), be baptized, submit our entire life to God in obedience to His every word, and sin no more (Matt. 4:4).

Believing with one's whole heart and mind and life and strength is the same as explicitly trusting in everything God says to the point of sacrificing one's life in submission to His will (Rom. 12:1, Phil. 2:17, Luke 9:23-24).

Almighty God provided the sacrifice of His son and accepts it on our behalf if we believe with faith, that He will raise us up at the last day just as He raised His son from complete death (1 Cor. 15:3, 15, John 3:16; 6:39-40, Rom. 5:15, Ps. 115:17, Matt. 12:40).

We are told not to add or take away from God's word. So why are there so many beliefs and traditions and rituals and teachings that do both and yet are accepted by most as truth?

Apparently it's a hard thing to just keep it to the written word.

R7-12

Ah, this is going to be fun

Mystical wrote: Asking Jesus into your heart is (contrary to what the author states) surrendering, trusting, believing and repenting. All those things are necessary. Even the devil believes in Him ; obviously, that is not all that is needed.

You have made three incorrect statements in this brief reply:

1) "Asking Jesus into your heart" is not an objective claim. It is an English idiom, and as such, it does not necessarily mean "surrendering, trusting, believing, and repenting." That may be what it means to you, but I challenge you to go ask fifteen random people, "What does it mean to 'ask Jesus into your heart?'" Therefore, the very basis of your argument is faulty.
2) Of the four actions you mentioned--surredner, trust, belief, and repentance--only one of these is necessary to salvation. That is belief. Trust may be considered the same, given the Greek word behind "belief." Surrender is not involved in the salvation process. It is involved in the realm of discipleship. Repentance is only necessary for salvation if you define it as "a change of mind" rather than a "change of action", and then place it in the context of what you are believing for your salvation . . . yourself, or Christ's promise. In this sense, repentance is either the same as belief, or unnecessary to salvation.
3) You state that the devil believes in Christ as proof that belief is not suffecient. This is false, because "belief" does not mean "intellectual recognition of facts." Savlation is based on the belief in Christ's promise to save you based on His person and work. For more on this, see the Lordship vs. Free Grace thread.

Kurieuo:

Your objection does not adequately address numbers 2, 3, 4, and 7. I know this issue looks like mere semantics, but I can assure you that it is not. I'll post, later, an explanation of why this is far more than nitpicking.

R7:

The only place I disagree with you is in your assertion that something beyond belief is necessary for salvation. For that, see my response to Mystical, as well as read through the Lordship vs. Free Grace thead.

For the record, I especially like numbers 2 and 6

More later,

God bless

I don't think that asking JEsus into your heart should be even considered literal. The physical act, the words, or the individual meaning.

I think that it is more a teaching that says that you consciously come before JEsus Christ and proclaim with your mouth before man that he is from God and he is says he is.

The idea of inviting him into your heart is just a representation of Idnetifying with him and having faith that he will ask his father to adopt us that God will do it.

R7:

The only place I disagree with you is in your assertion that something beyond belief is necessary for salvation.

What is belief?

And, is there anything that is beyond, or something which follows or accompanies belief, in the process of salvation?

If all we need is to believe that Christ is the son of God, then the rest of the Bible is quite unnecessary.

Just believing is, in fact, at least one rung below the fallacy of just asking Jesus into one's heart, which would naturally follow believing.

R7-12

I appreciate that article.

Jac3510 wrote:2) Of the four actions you mentioned--surredner, trust, belief, and repentance--only one of these is necessary to salvation. That is belief. Trust may be considered the same, given the Greek word behind "belief." Surrender is not involved in the salvation process. It is involved in the realm of discipleship. Repentance is only necessary for salvation if you define it as "a change of mind" rather than a "change of action", and then place it in the context of what you are believing for your salvation . . . yourself, or Christ's promise. In this sense, repentance is either the same as belief, or unnecessary to salvation.

Repentance is unnecessary to salvation? That's amazing.

Fortigurn wrote:Repentance is unnecessary to salvation? That's amazing.

Sorry to be the bearer of good news, but no, it isn't. I suppose we could look into that a little bit, though . . .

First, the word "repent" in all its forms is found 54 times in the NT (NASB renderings). Now, the breakdown is very interesting:

Matthew -- 7 times
Mark -- 3 times
Luke -- 14 times
Acts -- 10 times
Romans -- 1 time
2 Cor. -- 3 times
2 Tim. - 1 time
Hebrews - 3 times
Revelation - 12 times

(Someone feel free to correct me if I missed any).

While nearly half of the occurrences are found in Luke-Acts, only 5 (or are found in Paul's writings. If you consider only the gospels, you get roughly half of the occurrences . . . another large chunk is found in the Revelation.

It is interesting to note that 20% of the occurrences are, in fact, in the revelation, and next to the Gospel of Luke, the word is employed more here than any other book. We know that the author was John, so it is obvious that John knew well of the concept. What is interesting, though, is that the word is NEVER used in the Gospel of John! Let's double up that argument by citing the reason for John's writing of his gospel:
"But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:31, NIV, emphasis added)

John's gospel is written to bring people to eternal life. It is the evangelistic gospel. If his purpose is to bring someone to eternal life, it follows that he will have all the necessary instructions. And yet, NOWHERE do we find the word "repent"! Again, John could not have "forgotten" about it, because 1) he was inspired by the HS, and 2) he used the word 12 times in the Revelation.

In fact, what the above verse does say is that faith comes by believing in His name, which, if you read the entire gospel, you will find is the consistent message.

So what of those other passages that seem to imply that repentance is necessary? In Matthew, repentance leads to salvation in only one verse:

"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here" (12:41, NASB)

You can note that salvation is not explicitly tied to repentance. The concept is, but not the word itself. This verse cannot be used to tie repentance to eschatological salvation because these people were delivered from destruction, not from eternal wrath. All the "city-repentance" passages follow this line of thought.

In Mark, only one verse may be used:

"John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Mark 1:4).

However, I have thoroughly demonstrated that the forgiveness of sins is not at all the same as eschatological salvation. Besides this, John the Baptist declared this message, and it is clear that salvation does not come through him.

In Luke, we have 13:3 and 5, which both say, "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish." The context, again, is physical destruction. I will say more on this later. For now, let it suffice that this is not referring to eschatological salvation, but rather temporal deliverance.

Luke 15:7 and 10 both have the same idea, with 7 saying, "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."

Now, this DOES refer to eschatological salvation. Here, repentance can be understood as I have previously explained--a change of mind, not of actions. That is, this person has turned from himself for salvation to God. In other words, he has believed. Given Luke's fondness of the word "repent", and his use of "believe" only 10 times (only three of which could be said to be attached to eschatological salvation, although I would argue only once), this is not at all surprising.

Luke 24:47 deals with the forgiveness of sins, handled above.

We will cover Acts last.

Romans 2:4 could be used to prove repentance is required for salvation if it were not for verse 6, where Paul qualifies "repentance" with the "unrepentant heart." It is the change of mind, not actions, that Paul is referring to, which, again, is consistent with his theology of grace through faith alone.

The Corinthian passages do not refer to salvation, however, 2 Cor. 12:21 actually undercuts the idea that it is necessary. Paul says:

"I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced."

But Paul knows he is talking to Christians!!! And yet, he acknowledges that some of these have been saved, though they have not repented of their sinful actions . . . hmm . . .

Timothy doesn't apply, and the verses in Hebrews make no connection to salvation, either.

2 Peter may be used, but, again, I simply read this as "heart-repentance" . . . and the passages in Revelation do not tie into salvation, even though they were penned by John!

With that, the only passages that may actually teach repentance as necessary are in the first chapters of Acts . . . consider the following:

• Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
  
  Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)
  
  He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (Acts 5:31)

These seem to be clear cut commands to repent for salvation. And to an extent, I would agree, but notice these messages are given to the Jews--the same ones who crucified Jesus. Note that the repentance leads to forgiveness of sins, not to a crediting of righteousness. In fact Acts 2:38 implies that the people had believed, which is why they asked what to do! In all of these passages, the forgiveness of sins is not for final salvation, but for temporary salvation. What sin had they committed? They had just killed Christ!

We could handle the rest of the passages in the same manner, but by now it should be clear, if you are willing to see, that repentance is necessary for fellowship, but not at all for salvation.

In closing, we see at least two types of salvation in the Bible. There is salvation from death, and there is salvation from eternal death. Repentance relates to the former, whereas belief relates to the latter. It is beautifully simple. Once again, note that neither John nor Paul make repentance a major part of their doctrines, and both of them where HIGHLY concerned with salvation. For Paul, it only really comes up in the Corinthian situation, and for John, only at the Revelation. Both of these fit perfectly with the idea I have set up. I hope that helps.

I could go on, but this is a good place to stop.

God bless

“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31“Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32“For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” (Ezekiel 18:30-32, NKJV).

This applies to all for God is not a respecter of persons showing partiality to anyone.

“For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality..." (Deut. 10:17, NKJV).

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (Acts 10:34, KJV).

For there is no partiality with God (Rom. 2:11, NKJV).

And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him (Eph. 6:8, KJV).

“One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger (Gentile) who dwells among you.” (Ez. 12:49, NKJV).

You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger (Gentile) who dwells among them (Num. 15:29, NKJV).

Our conduct is central to salvation. It is to change from repentance onward.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (1 Cor. 6:9-11, NKJV).

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21, NKJV).

For what will it profit them if they gain the whole world but forfeit their life? Or what will they give in return for their life?
27 “For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what he has done (Matt. 16:26-27, RSV).

Our conduct or actions are decided by our mind. From repentance we decide to turn from lawbreaking (committing sin) and begin doing what God commands. This pleases God because from baptism we walk in the spirit which is only given to those who obey (Acts 2:38; 5:32, Rom. 8:7-9). Repentance begins in the mind and heart and becomes manifest in our conduct or how we live. Either we live by the spiritual principles revealed by the law and the testimony and live, or we don't and die.

R7-12

OK, R7 . . .

• "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!" (Ezekiel 18:30-32, NKJV).

One of my favorite passages in the Bible, and it has nothing to do with salvation. God is warning Israel that He is about to destroy them. Death will soon come if they do not repent and turn back to the Lord. Did that happen? Absolutely. Israel was destroyed by Babylon not long after this prophecy. If the people had only repented, they would have been spared, just as God promised throughout the book of the Law.

Now, from this, we can glean the principle that God wishes all were saved, and He takes no joy in condemning any. I have used this text in this way. But, the lesson here is not that repentance is necessary for eschatologial salvation. You have to wrench it out of context for that. The lesson is that God wants us to turn back to Him so that He doesn't have to discipline us. If God, like any father, hates to have to discipline His children, how much more would He hate to condemn any of His creations?

• “For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality..." (Deut. 10:17, NKJV).
  
  Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (Acts 10:34, KJV).
  
  For there is no partiality with God (Rom. 2:11, NKJV).
  
  And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him (Eph. 6:8, KJV).
  
  “One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.” (Ez. 12:49, NKJV).

Amen. God treats all the same. These verses have absolutely nothing to say about repentance as it relates to salvation, other than to say the same standard applied to one must be applied to all.

• You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger (Gentile) who dwells among them (Num. 15:29, NKJV).

This could easily be lumped in with the preceding verses, if not for the "sin unintentionally." Is that your great proof that repentance is necessary for salvation? On top of the fact that it is nowhere mentioned in the passage--if this were true, it would be HIGHLY implicit--it is impossible to repent from unintentional sins. That is what makes them unintentional!

Let's keep trying, shall we?

R7 wrote:Our conduct is central to salvation. It is to change from repentance onward.

Ah, if only that was Scripture, and not R7 who said this . Well, let's see if your claim can be substantiated, shall we?

• Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (1 Cor. 6:9-11, NKJV).

Ah, I see. So, not only must I repent, but if I ever commit a single sin . . . let's say I covet something . . . well, apparently I have lost my salvation. Because, after all, I have coveted, and those who covet "will not inherit the kingdom of God."

OK, so if that isn't what the verse means, then what is it? Well, there are two possibilities. The first has to do with the word "inherit." You will notice that these verses nowhere speak of condemnation. There is little doubt that our inheritance in heaven can be lost, for as 1 Corinthians 3:15 says, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (NASB) And we are told by Jesus that we can store up treasures in Heaven (Matt. 6:20), so it follows that some will have greater rewards than others. Given this, if a Christian continues in the activities listed, then Paul says he will not inherit the kingdom, neither his rewards nor his authority.

The other possibility lies in the realm of identity. Notice that Paul says "And such were some of you." Some of these people could have been put in that list. But, no longer. Now, unless you believe one can lose his salvation, why the warning against going back? And it is obvious that this passage is a warning, for it is in the middle of a series of rebukes. They were dragging one another before the courts and falling back into sexual sin. But, even if one did commit adultery, he was not an adulterer. Paul recognized a basic truth in himself that he still sinned, but when he sinned, it was not he who was doing it, but the sin in him (Romans 7:21-25). Further, the New Man CANNOT sin (1 John 3:6, 9 . . . the "continue to" in most translations is not in the Greek. It should be rendered in the present static, as the KJV rightly does). It is not in his nature. Therefore, Paul makes the exhortations to the Corinthians:

• Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! (1 Cor. 6:15, NIV)
  
  Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. (1 Cor. 6:18, NIV)

Thus, we see that Paul is telling this Church not to go back to the sin that they were saved from, not because it would deny them of their salvation, but because as members of the body of Christ, it was a disgraceful thing! (See also Romans 6:1-14).

To continue . . .

• Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21, NKJV).

This passage can be dealt with exactly the same way as the previous, only we can make a strong case from this passage that repentance is NOT necessary for salvation. If you look starting from verse sixteen, you read,

• So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The exhortation is to live by the Spirit. This is a call to repent, absolutely. We must repent because there is still sin within us, so we must overcome it. We can do this by walking in the Spirit. However, is this repentance tied to salvation? Absolutely not. In fact, Paul makes it very clear that he knows these people are saved! Why, then, the call to repent? Because sin is in conflict with the Christian walk, and those who walk in sin lose their inheritance. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Paul, not me.

• For what will it profit them if they gain the whole world but forfeit their life? Or what will they give in return for their life? For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what he has done (Matt. 16:26-27, RSV).

Bravo, and good pick of a translation to. I applaud the RSV for rendering psuche "life" rather than "soul." It makes my job much easier. This is a reference to exactly what it says . . . the loss of life. This is true on two levels. First is the actual physical level. Those who do not repent lose their lives through God's discipline (see the Ezekiel 18 passage again, or James 1:14-15 works as well). The second level relates to the abundance of life, which we find from the parallel text Mark 8:38-39, quoted here from the ESV with its context:

• And he called to him the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? For what can a man give in return for his life? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Now, this passage is referring specifically to Christians. The context, as you can see, is discipleship. Those who would be disciples must pay a VERY high price. They must be willing to lose their entire lives for Jesus, but if they do that, they will save it. Notice that what they save is their lives, not their eternal souls. Jesus is referring to the abundant life. By giving up what you think you want, you gain what you truly want (c.f. Matt. 6:33). If though, you seek to fulfill your own desires, you will lose your life, both in the physical sense and the abundant sense. What, Jesus says, is more important? Having everything and being miserable, or having nothing and being joyful? The key to this joy is to be a disciple of Jesus, and here is where the most profound truth comes in. It turns out that Jesus' words to apply eschatologically as well as temporally. Jesus will be ashamed of the Christian that is ashamed of Him. This is not to say the Christian will lose His salvation, but He will lose His abundant reward, as is well demonstrated elsewhere in Scripture as well.

When we return to Matthew, we see the same thing taught, only here, we are told that Jesus will repay us each our deeds. That repayment, though, does not include the loss of salvation. As previously noted, some will be saved, though as by fire. The Christian's works will be judged, either good or bad (2 Cor. 5:10), and at that time he will receive reward or rebuke for what he has done on earth.

So, I'm not seeing any verses to substantiate your claims yet . . .

R7 wrote:Our conduct or actions are decided by our mind. From repentance we decide to turn from lawbreaking (committing sin) and begin doing what God commands. This pleases God because from baptism we walk in the spirit which is only given to those who obey (Acts 2:38; 5:32, Rom. 8:7-9). Repentance begins in the mind and heart and becomes manifest in our conduct or how we live. Either we live by the spiritual principles revealed by the law and the testimony and live, or we don't and die.

I suppose that you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation then, as well? R7, I've had this conversation with people, and at least they cited Peter's exhortation to repent in order to be saved. You did not give me a SINGLE verse that tied repentance directly to salvation. You came close with Ezekiel, but, as we've seen, the context had to do with physical deliverance. To spiritualize that text is simply bad hermeneutics. We can say that the saved person ought to repent from his sins, but we cannot say that in order to be saved one must repent from his sins. That is flatly a works based salvation. The least you could do is try to cover yourself by saying, "A person truly saved will repent," although I'd enjoy seeing you try to justify that with Scripture. At least people who believe that good works are evidence of salvation have a few verses to back their position, as misguided as they are . . .

So, I still hold to my case. Repentance is NOT necessary for salvation, and according to Gal. 1:8-9, to teach that is very, very dangerous.

In the meantime, I suggest you look up Genesis15:6, Mark 16:16, Luke 8:12, Luke 18:13-15, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:40, John 17:3, Acts 13:39, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:31, Romans 1:16, Romans 3:22, 28, Romans 4:3-11, 24, Romans 5:1, Romans 10:4, 7-13, 1 Cor. 1:21, Ephesians 1:13, 1 Tim. 1:16, Heb. 10:39.

I suppose I could list more, but I think these demonstrate the point quite nicely . . .

God bless

Jac3510,

The assertion that,

Repentance is NOT necessary for salvation

Blatantly denies the written word,

For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation...(2 Cor. 7:10a, NKJV).

If you seek to overcome such Scriptures as the one above, citing other texts that do not say repentance is not necessary, proves nothing.

Therefore you are required to show Scriptures that actually say repentance is not necessary for salvation.

You said,

Let's keep trying, shall we?

If your assertion is correct and you wish to continue this discussion with me, you will be able to,

“...go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Mat. 9:13, NKJV).

Notice the question requires a three-part answer.

R7-12

You know, R7 . . . people talk about keeping things in context so much that it sounds like a cop-out, but let's look at context for your verses, shall we?

• For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it--for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while--I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor. 7:8-10, NASB)

Paul is referencing, first of all, a particular sorrow. His first epistle had caused them much sorrow, which is not surprising. I mean, have you read it? He busted them throughout that thing . . .

Anyway, say it made them sorrowful, but Paul was glad that it did. And why? Because that sorrow brought them to repentance? It is interesting to note here that the first letter was written to CHRISTIANS. Let's not just assert that without prove, but Scripture says:

• Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours . . . (1 Cor. 1:1-2, NASB)

Now, if these people were already saved, as these previous two verses prove, then how did their repentance at this letter lead them to salvation? Well, Paul tells us exactly how it does in the context of your quote: "that you might not suffer loss in anything through us," and "but the sorrow of the world produces death." Paul was referring to the discipline of God. In other words, if this church had not repented of the terrible sins it had been committing, they were about to come under extreme judgment. This is not without precedent. Look at Christ's letters to the seven churches in the Revelation. To consider only one . . .

• But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. (Rev. 2:4-5, NASB)

The church at Ephesus had "left its first love." They were now playing church, so to speak. They were, in a word, sinning. So, Jesus told them to repent or else he would destroy them.

So, we see that 2 Cor. 7:10 has absolutely nothing to do with eschatological salvation, but everything to do with deliverance from judgment.

For the record, this is actually--if you want to be technical--the "plain" way to read the text. If someone was being mugged and they were yelling, "Someone save me!", what would they mean? The word "save" in English means "to deliver from danger." It takes a theological bent to always assume that the danger is Hellfire. There is a technical word for that, which is the word we render "justify." It almost always refers to eschatological salvation, except where the context tells us otherwise. This is actually because the word means "vindicate", and it usually is in reference to our state before God. Occassionaly it refers to our status before men, but I digress. The point is that we see the word "salvation" and we just assume it has to refer to accepting Christ and going to Heaven. That's a bad habit we have to get out of, because we've misunderstood much of the Bible because of it.

To continue:

If you seek to overcome such Scriptures as the one above, citing other texts that do not say repentance is not necessary, proves nothing.

Therefore you are required to show Scriptures that actually say repentance is not necessary for salvation.

You are asking me to prove a negative, which is logically impossible. However, I have aptly demonstrated that in passages that tell us how to be eternally saved, the sole requirement is belief. Who am I to add to what God said is necessary? I simply challenge you to show me Scripture that does. Once again, I appeal to John's Gospel. It was written, as I have shown, FOR THE PURPOSE of bringing one to salvation, and NEVER ONCE is the word "repent" used ANYWHERE. And yet, John uses it extensively in the Revelation. He uses it, in fact, exactly as I have been advocating its use: deliverance from judgment.

As for Matt. 9:13, this is why you need to make sure you use good translations. God bless the NKJV . . . it is, after all, a good word-for-word translation. The only problem is that the word "repentance" isn't in the original manuscripts. The NKJV is a revision of the KJV, which was translated originally in the 1600's from sub-par manuscripts. Modern translations, such as the NIV, NASB, and ESV, don't include the word "repentance" because we know it wasn't part of the autographs.

So, I STILL hold to my position, and I'll reiterate my warning to you from Gal. 1:8-9, and I'll add the one I posed to Religious Fanatic from James 3:1. Careful with your doctrine, R7. God won't take it lightly.

God bless

Luke 13:1-5 is often used to support repentance as necessary for salvation. We can talk about that, but I wanted to post an audio link to a recorded conversation between Bob Wilkin and Zane Hodges that does a phenomonal job of discounting not only this idea, but the idea that repentance is necessary for salvation, anyway.

Bob Wilkin and Zane Hodges Discuss Luke 13:1-5
(The story of Zacchaeus from Luke 19 is dealt with at 19 minutes, followed by the parable of the minas)

For more audio on this and other issues, see http://www.faithalone.org/Audio/index.html

God bless