Evidence for God from Science

Some very disturbing numbers in that article. I had no idea that that many abortions were happening in the States.

Disturbing indeed. We consider ourselves an enlightened people in a developed nation.

The facts are pretty scary, we wouldn't consider going out and sacrificially murdering children in a ritual to appease "the god of this world". Yet we do it on a daily basis without giving any thought to it as it (murder of innocents) has become tolerated in society that has become so selfish.

It's a pity that we as a nation (Canada / US) have given in to this world. And through ritual practice of abortion have given Satan all the power he needs in our lives to deal with us as he pleases.

Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Psa 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?
Psa 94:21 They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.

sa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
Psa 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
Psa 106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

Alright, consider this.
You have been raped. You become pregnant.
As a "moral" person you decide it's not the babies fault, so you decide to keep it. Wonderful.

Now. You have just been raped, you are still at school, you are very young, giving birth is actually very dangerous. There is no reason you should reck your life just because somebody stuck their **** in you against your will.
What kind of life would there be for that child? As a reminder of what you've been through, there is little hope that you as a... shall we say fourteen year kid would be able to look at it and think of anything but the fact that that child was not brought into this world through the union of two who love each other, as you have been taught a child should be, but through somebody else taking out their anger/hunger for power over others/ the fact they enjoy seeing people hurt on you.

oh dear. double post.

So, two wrongs make a right?

I have been unable to down-load this link. Even so I think that many abortions is alarming. However even if I have not viewed it I still can not understand why nearly all of view pro-choice the way you do. Could any of you please tell me where you get the idea that pro-choice means that people support abortion?

Pro-choice means giving people an option without enforcing your own will on them. Many pro-choice people (like myself) would never consider abortion as an option. At the same time I would never enforce my own moral view on someone else, but allow them the freedom of being able to choose. I would pray to God to guide the person.

Who am I to tell someone else what choice to make in their life. I am not God and neither are any of you! The minute any of us enforce our will on others we become tools of the devil. Who knows, God may have a plan for some people that doesn't make sense to us or seems unjust. Take for example a mother pregnant with multiple foetuses. A mothers life and that of her babies is in danger the more babies she is carrying. What if it is Gods will that he guide a doctor to abort one to save the life of the mother and the rest of the babies? Remember nothing happens unless it is Gods will.

As humans we cannot understand the mind of God and at time things dont seem as if it is him working in our lives. As an example read my post on Divorce and Remarriage. I found that hard to make sense of, and I still find myself wodering why? But despite this I know God has a reason and one day I will understand.

The other point is that if there are that many abortions taking place then we should be addressing the root cause of the problem and not using band-aid end solutions. Why so many? Have we forgotten something as a society? Are many of these teenage pregnancies with young people crying out for attention?

If you are as concerned as you say you are make a stand on the causes of unwanted pregnancies. These range from rape, incest, lack of spiritual understanding and love, and of course selfish greed.

The problem I have with so many anti-abortionists is that they think they are helping to do Gods work, and this may not be the case at all. These people need your love and support, not your judgement. Be there for them, but also be wise enough to let them make their own choice. Let God make the choice! Pray for these people that God will guide them to make the right choice. Trust God and dont rely on your own moral judgement. If they still decide to go ahead that may be Gods will that it does.

I know many of you might say that God would never do that (allow the murder of innocents). However may I try an explain that it might very well be to teach us to have spiritual understanding. As an example in Australia a little girl called Sophie was horrifically burnt when a car crashed into her day-care centre and landed on top of her catching fire when she was three years old. Just recently she was once again hit by a car and almost died. This was not God punishing her or her family. This was God working a miracle in the lives of many people. Because of little Sophie millions of people learnt compassion. As well her father has set up an organisation to help burns victims. What he has done has saved the lives of other children.

However would any of this occurred if Sophie hadn't suffered the way she did? No it wouldn't because there would not have been a Sophie for anyone to learn from, nor receive help.

As well God could be saying that we have looked the other way at the reasons why these problems occur so he is giving us a very loud message that something is wrong with our society. Remember 'bad things happen when good people do nothing'. Somehow we have not done enough and are reaping the consequences. Abortion is the end product not the cause.

Anyway, love and best wishes all.

Michelle wrote:Pro-choice means giving people an option without enforcing your own will on them. Many pro-choice people (like myself) would never consider abortion as an option. At the same time I would never enforce my own moral view on someone else, but allow them the freedom of being able to choose. I would pray to God to guide the person.

If I were to be pro-choice on abortion, I would take the logical step and also be pro-choice on infantcide. For it is not until about two years of age according to science I believe, that human brains are fully developed and babies are self-aware. And do we seriously believe that the moment a baby is outside the womb, that it is different from the moment just before while in the womb? Location does not change the nature of a being.

So if a baby is born, the parents should have the choice to abort their baby if they decided it would be too much of a burden financially, or if for example there was a defect they did not wish to put up with, or for whatever reason. I do not of course think this should be done, I would not be pro-infantcide but simply pro-choice. And given this, it should ultimately be the parent's choice whether to abort their baby at least until about the age of two (or point of time when we have strong scientific evidence the baby is self-aware).

Kurieuo

Kurieuo wrote:

Michelle wrote:Pro-choice means giving people an option without enforcing your own will on them. Many pro-choice people (like myself) would never consider abortion as an option. At the same time I would never enforce my own moral view on someone else, but allow them the freedom of being able to choose. I would pray to God to guide the person.

If I were to be pro-choice on abortion, I would take the logical step and also be pro-choice on infanticide. For it is not until about two years of age according to science I believe, that human brains are fully developed and babies are self-aware. And do we seriously believe that the moment a baby is outside the womb, that it is different from the moment just before while in the womb? Location does not change the nature of a being.

So if a baby is born, the parents should have the choice to abort their baby if they decided it would be too much of a burden financially, or if for example there was a defect they did not wish to put up with, or for whatever reason. I do not of course think this should be done, I would not be pro-infantcide but simply pro-choice. And given this, it should ultimately be the parent's choice whether to abort their baby at least until about the age of two (or point of time when we have strong scientific evidence the baby is self-aware).

Kurieuo

It seems that you may be viewing my post with some hostility assuming that I am someone who supports the murder of innocent defenceless babies. Nothing could be further from the truth! It is very obvious that you are dogmatic about your opinion (your opinion must be Gods as well) apparently. I am simply saying that we don't have the right to enforce our will on others. We can guide and share our opinion, but we cant make people do what we want because that is our world view. Sometimes people are going to make tragic and wrong choices in the eyes of some of us but do we have the right to condemn them. Do we have the right to deny them free will. We allow ourselves free will when we choose to not have an abortion. It is very obvious that you have taken me completely out of context.

Just curious though, do you go out of your way to stop women from having an abortion at all? If so, is it because it is your opinion that you are doing the right thing stopping babies from being slaughtered? I don't wish to be offensive to you so I apologise to you if I am. Do you think you have the right to enforce your will onto others even if you are right, (and I agree with you on your abortion stance on it being wrong)? I get quite upset when I hear how parents abort a baby because of some selfish reason. I don't want that to happen ever.
The reason I asked you this is because I am aware of a person who committed suicide because members of the anti-abortion league harassed her while she was about to enter an abortion clinic. I am wondering if you protest at all about this issue. In the above case they thought they were doing the right thing, however someone died because of their actions. And no that is not justification for abortion, it means that sometimes we may not be doing the right thing.

Also I have met many anti abortionists over the years and some of them have actually proudly proclaimed how they are doing Gods work. Good for them for doing Gods work! However I have seen these very same people who claim to be doing this work walk right past a girl who desperately needed someone to love and care for her. What happened to her? She became pregnant trying to find a substitute for love, had her baby but couldn't cope and tragically the baby suffered abuse and died.

My main point on all of this is that their is a deep seated root cause on this and until we address it abortion will always remain a problem. Also you don't stop women having them by legislating against it. There is the chance that they will have backyard ones. Regardless of what viewpoint each of us has abortion is the end product.

So, if you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you do to stop this problem from occurring in the first place. For example do you make a moral stand on issues such as television, video and other electronic media that might be influential in unwanted pregnancies? Do you provide genuine spiritual love and understanding to people who have no-one to love them so they don't use sex and as an alternative? Do you educate on the right to say no when it comes to sex? Do you assist in providing the means for women to have contraceptives if possible? All these things would help stop the problem (although not in its entirety) in some way which is obviously something you and I would both like to see.

Remember that if you are a real christian you do not judge people, nor do you enforce your will. You love unconditionally. And that means regardless of what choices someone makes in their lives. Some people do horrendous things. Just think of Martin Bryant, or Adolf Hitler and yet despite this God still loved them enough to send his son to die for them too! If God has enough love to do that even for people like them, who are any of us to enforce our judgement on others.

Ouch Michelle,

Why should we bother to have a Civil Government at all? Let's just let everyone act according to their free will. Why stop at abortion? Let's also allow all types of murder, robbery, rape, etc. Obviously, this is nonsense.

Of course we have the right legislate morality. What else are we going to legislate? Part of the Great Commission was to make disciples and to "teach them to observe all things I have commanded you". That means morality, defined by God's Law (Matthew 5:17-18).

And saying that God sent His Son to die for Hitler is quite presumptuous.

Of course, if you are correct, then you have no right to judge someone for judging someone. (You seem to be quite judgmental over the war that Bush allegedly started)

I maybe post more late when I have some time.

I just wanted to say that I agree and understand with what
you are saying Michelle.

Love the Sinner hate the sin.

Protesting outside an abortion clinic is not the answer for sure.


Michael

Michelle wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Michelle wrote:Pro-choice means giving people an option without enforcing your own will on them. Many pro-choice people (like myself) would never consider abortion as an option. At the same time I would never enforce my own moral view on someone else, but allow them the freedom of being able to choose. I would pray to God to guide the person.

If I were to be pro-choice on abortion, I would take the logical step and also be pro-choice on infanticide. For it is not until about two years of age according to science I believe, that human brains are fully developed and babies are self-aware. And do we seriously believe that the moment a baby is outside the womb, that it is different from the moment just before while in the womb? Location does not change the nature of a being.

So if a baby is born, the parents should have the choice to abort their baby if they decided it would be too much of a burden financially, or if for example there was a defect they did not wish to put up with, or for whatever reason. I do not of course think this should be done, I would not be pro-infantcide but simply pro-choice. And given this, it should ultimately be the parent's choice whether to abort their baby at least until about the age of two (or point of time when we have strong scientific evidence the baby is self-aware).

Kurieuo

It seems that you may be viewing my post with some hostility assuming that I am someone who supports the murder of innocent defenceless babies. Nothing could be further from the truth!

I am not sure what you are saying. If I were pro-choice abortion, I would be pro-choice infantcide for I do not believe location from inside the womb to outside changes the nature of the baby. Whatever else you are reading into my words is your own interpretation of them, and however you decide to picture me whether a Hitler or what-have-you I guess is purely your peragotive based upon what little you know about me. As for supporting abortion or infantcide, my words only surrounded the issue of pro-choice. Unless of course you are now seeing that pro-choice infantcide ultimately pro-infantcide as pro-choice abortion would be ultimately be pro-abortion?

Michelle wrote:It is very obvious that you are dogmatic about your opinion (your opinion must be Gods as well) apparently.

If being passionate about my beliefs is dogmatic then I guess so. I apologise. I did not know when you posted that your position was the only one a person could be passionate about without being dogmatic.

Michelle wrote:I am simply saying that we don't have the right to enforce our will on others. We can guide and share our opinion, but we cant make people do what we want because that is our world view.

Where did I enforce my opinion on others? I didn't make any threats of violence or what-have-you. All I said is that if I were pro-choice on abortion I would be pro-choice on infantcide. I apologise if you see some arrogance in this. Perhaps you did not like me saying such things, and you would prefer to have my beliefs silenced, but I see infantcide as the logical conclusion to abortion. If one is justified taking a baby's life in the womb based upon a lack of self-awareness, then I see one is justified in taking an infant's life on the same grounds. Sorry if this offended you, but where do you disagree with my logic and for what reason?

Michelle wrote:Sometimes people are going to make tragic and wrong choices in the eyes of some of us but do we have the right to condemn them. Do we have the right to deny them free will. We allow ourselves free will when we choose to not have an abortion. It is very obvious that you have taken me completely out of context.

I certainly feel my free will to have a say is being attacked here. I agree entirely with you. If we do not have a right to deny a mother her choice to an abortion of her baby's life, then we don't have the right to deny parents the choice to take their born baby's life. Like you say with regards to your pro-choice perspective on abortion, I would simply be pro-choice infantcide and not personally supportive of it. Unless you wish to restrict parents from committing infantcide and force your beliefs and morality onto them, I see that infantcide is the logical conclusion to an abortion.

Michelle wrote:Just curious though, do you go out of your way to stop women from having an abortion at all? If so, is it because it is your opinion that you are doing the right thing stopping babies from being slaughtered? I don't wish to be offensive to you so I apologise to you if I am.

Firstly, I think it is the right of every human being to be able to live their life without being abused and having their life taken from them. This right supercedes all other rights, including choice, and it is the reason why crimes such as murder, rape, and the like are not open to moral opinion. To live in a civil society entails morality is enforced by law, and such laws provide comfort and protection to people including us who would otherwise have none.

Michelle wrote:Do you think you have the right to enforce your will onto others even if you are right, (and I agree with you on your abortion stance on it being wrong)? I get quite upset when I hear how parents abort a baby because of some selfish reason. I don't want that to happen ever.

I believe I have a moral obligation to fight for those who can not defend themselves. I think the freeing of black people from slavery was a good thing, and their equality as human lives was something worth fighting for. I believe the United Nations and nations around the world were wrong to have not protected the innocent lives which were slaughtered in Rwanda. I believe innocent lives are worth fighting for. The only question that remains is whether the unborn are human lives.

I believe pro-choice avoids this question by attempting to change the topic from the most important one which concerns what the status of the unborn human is, to that of an extreme political correctness which ignores such facts.

Michelle wrote:The reason I asked you this is because I am aware of a person who committed suicide because members of the anti-abortion league harassed her while she was about to enter an abortion clinic. I am wondering if you protest at all about this issue. In the above case they thought they were doing the right thing, however someone died because of their actions. And no that is not justification for abortion, it means that sometimes we may not be doing the right thing.

I can understand the resentment towards those who get an abortion. It is the same feeling people anti-slavery would have experienced when fighting for the cause of the blacks. The same feeling we likely get when watching movies of the immorality of the black slave trade. Thus, I see their anti-abortion feelings are entirely understandable and are an outcome of their accepting an unborn as a human equal to the born.

Yet, I believe there are more effective ways of changing the minds of people than through violence and cursing. Education about the status of the unborn, and what it is that provides people with "human value" is one. The way you have reacted to the few short words I mentioned above, makes me feel like you think I would like nothing better then to execute everyone pro-abortion or who has had an abortion. Hopefully it will brighten your opinion of me if I told you my wife's friend has had an abortion, and yet, I have accepted her as my own friend nonetheless. The sad part is, she does not even fully realise she participated in taking a human life predominantly because as it is legal than surely the unborn must not be really human. Thus, I see eduction is key and ultimately having laws changed so people, like my friend, are protected from making a decision unaware which ends up making them feel guilty straight after since they inwardly know something was wrong. Those like my friend need protection from those who would capitalise on making money from performing abortions, just as much as the human lives who are killed when an abortion is performed.

Michelle wrote:Also I have met many anti abortionists over the years and some of them have actually proudly proclaimed how they are doing Gods work. Good for them for doing Gods work! However I have seen these very same people who claim to be doing this work walk right past a girl who desperately needed someone to love and care for her. What happened to her? She became pregnant trying to find a substitute for love, had her baby but couldn't cope and tragically the baby suffered abuse and died.

When and where did you see these people walk past such girls, or are you just talking as a matter of fact? I find it significant there are many Christians who help girls and women through their pregnancies, and provide them with encouragement. I feel your persepective is very warped if you generally characterise those against aborting the human life of an unborn baby (including I guess myself) as entirely devoid of empathy or uncaring for the person who needs help with their pregnancy. If you read over Rich's article at http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/m ... rtion.html, you will hopefully gain a more balanced view of those against abortion.

Michelle wrote:My main point on all of this is that their is a deep seated root cause on this and until we address it abortion will always remain a problem. Also you don't stop women having them by legislating against it. There is the chance that they will have backyard ones. Regardless of what viewpoint each of us has abortion is the end product.

You won't stop murders, rapes, and drug use by legislating it either. Yet, you will help protect those who do not have all the facts on an issue such as my wife's friend. It will make a big difference. And there is nothing wrong with moral reformation. Blacks were once considered less than human by legislation, and I hope one day that as this racism was removed, that prejudices against the human life of the unborn will also be removed.

I think this is enough writing, I dare not respond to your further allegations, implied or otherwise, which make me out to be an ice-cold Hitler. I am entirely disconcerted that you read so much into who I am through my simple words that I would be pro-choice on infantcide as a logical extension of my being pro-choice on abortion (if I were).

For those wishing to know facts about the status of the unborn life, which is what really matters in this issue, I would recommend reading http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html. There are also many other issues that site has article on which are often debated or discussed, and hopefully this website will be able to educate many people on the issue of abortion, and more importantly the valuable status of the unborn.

Kurieuo

K - excellent posts all the way around. I had never thought about the pro-infantcide thing before, but you are exactly right.

That said, I'm not pro-life (specifically).

I'm anti-choice.

Kurieuo wrote:

Michelle wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Michelle wrote:Pro-choice means giving people an option without enforcing your own will on them. Many pro-choice people (like myself) would never consider abortion as an option. At the same time I would never enforce my own moral view on someone else, but allow them the freedom of being able to choose. I would pray to God to guide the person.

If I were to be pro-choice on abortion, I would take the logical step and also be pro-choice on infanticide. For it is not until about two years of age according to science I believe, that human brains are fully developed and babies are self-aware. And do we seriously believe that the moment a baby is outside the womb, that it is different from the moment just before while in the womb? Location does not change the nature of a being.

So if a baby is born, the parents should have the choice to abort their baby if they decided it would be too much of a burden financially, or if for example there was a defect they did not wish to put up with, or for whatever reason. I do not of course think this should be done, I would not be pro-infantcide but simply pro-choice. And given this, it should ultimately be the parent's choice whether to abort their baby at least until about the age of two (or point of time when we have strong scientific evidence the baby is self-aware).

Kurieuo

It seems that you may be viewing my post with some hostility assuming that I am someone who supports the murder of innocent defenceless babies. Nothing could be further from the truth!

I am not sure what you are saying. If I were pro-choice abortion, I would be pro-choice infantcide for I do not believe location from inside the womb to outside changes the nature of the baby. Whatever else you are reading into my words is your own interpretation of them, and however you decide to picture me whether a Hitler or what-have-you I guess is purely your peragotive based upon what little you know about me. As for supporting abortion or infantcide, my words only surrounded the issue of pro-choice. Unless of course you are now seeing that pro-choice infantcide ultimately pro-infantcide as pro-choice abortion would be ultimately be pro-abortion?

Michelle wrote:It is very obvious that you are dogmatic about your opinion (your opinion must be Gods as well) apparently.

If being passionate about my beliefs is dogmatic then I guess so. I apologise. I did not know when you posted that your position was the only one a person could be passionate about without being dogmatic.

Michelle wrote:I am simply saying that we don't have the right to enforce our will on others. We can guide and share our opinion, but we cant make people do what we want because that is our world view.

Where did I enforce my opinion on others? I didn't make any threats of violence or what-have-you. All I said is that if I were pro-choice on abortion I would be pro-choice on infantcide. I apologise if you see some arrogance in this. Perhaps you did not like me saying such things, and you would prefer to have my beliefs silenced, but I see infantcide as the logical conclusion to abortion. If one is justified taking a baby's life in the womb based upon a lack of self-awareness, then I see one is justified in taking an infant's life on the same grounds. Sorry if this offended you, but where do you disagree with my logic and for what reason?

Michelle wrote:Sometimes people are going to make tragic and wrong choices in the eyes of some of us but do we have the right to condemn them. Do we have the right to deny them free will. We allow ourselves free will when we choose to not have an abortion. It is very obvious that you have taken me completely out of context.

I certainly feel my free will to have a say is being attacked here. I agree entirely with you. If we do not have a right to deny a mother her choice to an abortion of her baby's life, then we don't have the right to deny parents the choice to take their born baby's life. Like you say with regards to your pro-choice perspective on abortion, I would simply be pro-choice infantcide and not personally supportive of it. Unless you wish to restrict parents from committing infantcide and force your beliefs and morality onto them, I see that infantcide is the logical conclusion to an abortion.

Michelle wrote:Just curious though, do you go out of your way to stop women from having an abortion at all? If so, is it because it is your opinion that you are doing the right thing stopping babies from being slaughtered? I don't wish to be offensive to you so I apologise to you if I am.

Firstly, I think it is the right of every human being to be able to live their life without being abused and having their life taken from them. This right supercedes all other rights, including choice, and it is the reason why crimes such as murder, rape, and the like are not open to moral opinion. To live in a civil society entails morality is enforced by law, and such laws provide comfort and protection to people including us who would otherwise have none.

Michelle wrote:Do you think you have the right to enforce your will onto others even if you are right, (and I agree with you on your abortion stance on it being wrong)? I get quite upset when I hear how parents abort a baby because of some selfish reason. I don't want that to happen ever.

I believe I have a moral obligation to fight for those who can not defend themselves. I think the freeing of black people from slavery was a good thing, and their equality as human lives was something worth fighting for. I believe the United Nations and nations around the world were wrong to have not protected the innocent lives which were slaughtered in Rwanda. I believe innocent lives are worth fighting for. The only question that remains is whether the unborn are human lives.

I believe pro-choice avoids this question by attempting to change the topic from the most important one which concerns what the status of the unborn human is, to that of an extreme political correctness which ignores such facts.

Michelle wrote:The reason I asked you this is because I am aware of a person who committed suicide because members of the anti-abortion league harassed her while she was about to enter an abortion clinic. I am wondering if you protest at all about this issue. In the above case they thought they were doing the right thing, however someone died because of their actions. And no that is not justification for abortion, it means that sometimes we may not be doing the right thing.

I can understand the resentment towards those who get an abortion. It is the same feeling people anti-slavery would have experienced when fighting for the cause of the blacks. The same feeling we likely get when watching movies of the immorality of the black slave trade. Thus, I see their anti-abortion feelings are entirely understandable and are an outcome of their accepting an unborn as a human equal to the born.

Yet, I believe there are more effective ways of changing the minds of people than through violence and cursing. Education about the status of the unborn, and what it is that provides people with "human value" is one. The way you have reacted to the few short words I mentioned above, makes me feel like you think I would like nothing better then to execute everyone pro-abortion or who has had an abortion. Hopefully it will brighten your opinion of me if I told you my wife's friend has had an abortion, and yet, I have accepted her as my own friend nonetheless. The sad part is, she does not even fully realise she participated in taking a human life predominantly because as it is legal than surely the unborn must not be really human. Thus, I see eduction is key and ultimately having laws changed so people, like my friend, are protected from making a decision unaware which ends up making them feel guilty straight after since they inwardly know something was wrong. Those like my friend need protection from those who would capitalise on making money from performing abortions, just as much as the human lives who are killed when an abortion is performed.

Michelle wrote:Also I have met many anti abortionists over the years and some of them have actually proudly proclaimed how they are doing Gods work. Good for them for doing Gods work! However I have seen these very same people who claim to be doing this work walk right past a girl who desperately needed someone to love and care for her. What happened to her? She became pregnant trying to find a substitute for love, had her baby but couldn't cope and tragically the baby suffered abuse and died.

When and where did you see these people walk past such girls, or are you just talking as a matter of fact? I find it significant there are many Christians who help girls and women through their pregnancies, and provide them with encouragement. I feel your persepective is very warped if you generally characterise those against aborting the human life of an unborn baby (including I guess myself) as entirely devoid of empathy or uncaring for the person who needs help with their pregnancy. If you read over Rich's article at http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/m ... rtion.html, you will hopefully gain a more balanced view of those against abortion.

Michelle wrote:My main point on all of this is that their is a deep seated root cause on this and until we address it abortion will always remain a problem. Also you don't stop women having them by legislating against it. There is the chance that they will have backyard ones. Regardless of what viewpoint each of us has abortion is the end product.

You won't stop murders, rapes, and drug use by legislating it either. Yet, you will help protect those who do not have all the facts on an issue such as my wife's friend. It will make a big difference. And there is nothing wrong with moral reformation. Blacks were once considered less than human by legislation, and I hope one day that as this racism was removed, that prejudices against the human life of the unborn will also be removed.

I think this is enough writing, I dare not respond to your further allegations, implied or otherwise, which make me out to be an ice-cold Hitler. I am entirely disconcerted that you read so much into who I am through my simple words that I would be pro-choice on infantcide as a logical extension of my being pro-choice on abortion (if I were).

For those wishing to know facts about the status of the unborn life, which is what really matters in this issue, I would recommend reading http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html. There are also many other issues that site has article on which are often debated or discussed, and hopefully this website will be able to educate many people on the issue of abortion, and more importantly the valuable status of the unborn.

Kurieuo

It seems that you are mixing pro-choice with pro-abortion when the two are not even related. Of course having had access to government information regarding the abortion issue I am very aware of the dirty tricks campaign the anti-abortionists have played. I am not pro-abortion like you ignorantly imply but believe that I can not in the end decide for another human what to do with their life. To do that is to take away free will. Even God lets us have free will. I can do everything in my power to provide them with information regarding abortion, but in the end that person must make the choice themselves.

I am quite amazed how you have twisted around everything I have said in you blatant dogmatic ignorance. Read what I have said very carefully and you might realise that that you have jumped to conclusions about everything in my posts. For example where on earth do you get the opinion that I am comparing you to Hitler? Of course you aren't anything like him. I was trying to emphasise just how loving God is to everyone regardless of what they have done in their life. I was hopeful that you might agree with me on that, not twist everything around.

As well I would like to commend you on your kindness to your friend. There should be more people who are prepared to be caring as such. You obviously are a very loving caring person, that is a fact I do not dispute. My original question to everyone was where do you all get the idea that pro-choice automatically implies pro-abortion? Every reply has ignored this question completely?

And to every each of you who take it upon yourselves to decide the will of others for them may I say I feel privileged and humble to even converse with you. Me a mere mortal! Would you like me to bow before all you exalted ones. You are even above God himself, who right throughout the Bible warned of the consequences of taking away free will. That is what you are all doing! Taking away free will.

I understand you see pro-choice and pro-abortion as different, and I have not tried or intended to dogmatically assert you should see them as the same. Yet, by the same token you can then surely see that being pro-choice on infantcide is not the same as being supportive of infanticide? Or does your conscience allow you to see pro-choice on infanticide as being supportive of infanticide?

If you are repulsed by someone's being pro-choice on infanticide, then that is not my fault. And I am not pulling any trick, and do not frankly care what tactics are used in politics. Infanticide has come to the forefront in contemporary discussion due to people such as Michael Tooley who in "Defense of Abortion and Infanticide," puts forward the very idea you appear to believe I have somehow been twisting your words around. In his book he claims exactly what I have put forward here, that is, humans have a right to life only at the point of self-consciousness, and an interest in their own continued existence. Thus, until about the age of two (or until an age science suggests an infant becomes self-conscious), parents should have the choice to kill their infant for any reason as with abortion. Tooley also realises that location does not change the nature of who we are. I am still a human being when I am in my home, just like I am when I am at the shops or anywhere else. Likewise, a baby located in the womb does not magically change the moment it is given birth and is outside the womb. Tooley is consistent in his thinking.

I apologise if you feel I have twisted your words, although I must admit I am a bit puzzled as to how I have done so. Especially since all my original post claimed was that if I were pro-choice on abortion I would also be pro-choice on infanticide for I see nothing which changes a baby the moment it is given birth. Thus, if women have the choice to abort their unborn babies life, then parents should have the choice to kill their born babies until they reach an age of self-consciousness.

Kurieuo