Hell

August · Post by **August** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:30 pm

Hi,

I'm new here, and I have been impressed with the patience and logic in the responses I saw.

I have a question about God and hell.

Can anyone provide me with a definition for hell, which also satisfies the fact that God is infinite and omnipresent? If God is everywhere, it by definition will stand that He is also present in hell. I have heard many times that hell is defined as the absence of God, but if God is infinite and omnipresent, hell cannot exist. I believe that there is absolute morality, absolute good etc, but where or what is eternal damnation, given that hell cannot be a physical or meta-physical place?

Thanks

A

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:07 pm

Let's say that you're with a person who can't see, hear or feel. You may be there, but how can they know?

Christianity talks of being born of the spirit. I believe that we require some sort of spiritual body in order to perceive God. If such a body is taken away from us, then I think it reasonable to say that one would literally be in darkness with their self. Now, I'm not saying this is the solution, but it is one that brings consistency to such a view of hell.

Kurieuo.

August · Post by **August** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:16 pm

Thanks for the reply.

To clarify, do you mean hell is when God removes your soul? It's a good explanation, but still does not explain where these soulless individuals would be. Are they just turning into dust somewhere, because without a soul, man is nothing but a biological collection of atoms? What happens to the soul once removed, or can it be deconstructed at all? If the soul is removed, how would the damned know they are damned, is the soul not what makes us sentient?

Phew. lot of questions, sorry.

A

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:17 pm

Can somebody give me the verses about God's omnipresence?

August · Post by **August** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:37 pm

Hi, sorry for the long list. The verses all show that God knew things that he could only have known by being omnipresent, although to be fair, the verses are about God's omniscience.

Psalm 139:8 is interesting:

Psalm 139:8 (KJV)
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Blows my argument away. no?

Genesis 16:13; Exodus 3:3; Exodus 3:7; Exodus 3:9; Exodus 3:19-20; Exodus 6:1; Exodus 11:1; Exodus 14:3-4; Numbers 14:27; Deut. 2:7; Deut. 31:21; 1 Samuel 2:3; 1 Samuel 16:7; 2 Samuel 7:20; 1 Kings 8:39; 2 Kings 19:27; 1 Chron. 28:9; 1 Chron. 29:17; 2 Chron. 6:30; 2 Chron. 16:9; Neh. 9:10; Job 11:11; Job 12:13; Job 12:16; Job 12:22; Job 21:22; Job 22:13-14; Job 23:10; Job 24:1; Job 24:23; Job 26:6; Job 28:10; Job 28:24; Job 31:4; Job 34:21-22; Job 34:25; Job 36:4-5; Job 37:16; Job 42:2; Psalm 1:6; Psalm 7:9; Psalm 10:11; Psalm 11:4; Psalm 33:13-15; Psalm 37:18; Psalm 38:9; Psalm 44:21; Psalm 66:7; Psalm 69:19; Psalm 73:11; Psalm 92:5; Psalm 94:7; Psalm 94:9-11; Psalm 103:14; Psalm 104:24; Psalm 119:168; Psalm 121:3-4; Psalm 136:5; Psalm 139:1-24; Psalm 142:3; Psalm 147:4-5; Proverbs 3:19-20; Proverbs 5:21; Proverbs 15:3; Proverbs 15:11; Proverbs 16:2; Proverbs 17:3; Proverbs 21:2; Proverbs 24:12; Isaiah 28:29; Isaiah 29:15-16; Isaiah 37:28; Isaiah 40:13-14; Isaiah 40:26-28; Isaiah 41:4; Isaiah 42:9; Isaiah 44:7; Isaiah 45:4; Isaiah 45:21; Isaiah 46:10; Isaiah 48:3; Isaiah 48:5-6; Isaiah 66:18; Jeremiah 5:3; Jeremiah 10:7; Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 11:20; Jeremiah 17:10; Jeremiah 20:12; Jeremiah 23:24; Jeremiah 32:19; Jeremiah 51:15; Ezekiel 9:9; Ezekiel 11:5; Daniel 2:20; Daniel 2:22; Daniel 2:28; Amos 4:13; Amos 9:2-4; Zech. 4:10; Matthew 6:4; Matthew 6:8; Matthew 6:18; Matthew 6:32; Matthew 10:29-30; Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; Luke 16:15; Acts 1:24; Acts 2:23; Acts 15:8; Acts 15:18; Romans 8:27; Romans 8:29; Romans 11:33-34; Romans 16:27; 1 Cor. 1:25; 1 Cor. 2:7; 1 Cor. 3:20; 1 Cor. 8:3; Galatians 4:9; Ephes. 1:8; Ephes. 3:10; 1 Thes. 2:4; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2 Tim. 2:19; Hebrews 4:13; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 John 1:5; 1 John 3:20; Jude 1:25

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:52 pm

ill go through that mammoth later, but one thing about the psalm. King David(i think he wrote them) was a believer, and i would imagine the Spirit would be with him, no matter where he was. I don't think hell is necessarily the absence of God as much as it is the fact that His presence has no observable effect.

August · Post by **August** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:00 pm

Regardless if David was a believer or not, it still states that God can be present in hell.

As for the nature of hell, and the fact that God's presence has no observable effect, leads me to wonder if that sort of punishment done by something else than can actually work in God's presence? Is hell then rather just not the place where God punishes unrepentant souls?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:05 pm

God doesn't punish them, Satan does. God doesn't even send them there, they send themselves through their lack of faith. And remember that Jesus himself went into hell for 3 days after he died, so I highly doubt God cannot be in hell.

August · Post by **August** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:20 pm

Not sure I agree with the statements. Satan cannot be omniscient as God is, so it would be impossible for satan to punish souls. Satan inhabits hell, I'm not sure if he's the operator. I agree that people's choices will cause them to be cast into hell.

Also, did God not cast satan and the fallen angels into hell? I will search for it more, but Luke 12:5 seems to indicate that God has the power to cast sinners into hell.

Also, can you supply a quote which shows Jesus went to hell during the 3 days of his death? I know it is widely assumed, but recently there has been some rethinking of that.

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:50 pm

August wrote:Thanks for the reply.

To clarify, do you mean hell is when God removes your soul? It's a good explanation, but still does not explain where these soulless individuals would be. Are they just turning into dust somewhere, because without a soul, man is nothing but a biological collection of atoms? What happens to the soul once removed, or can it be deconstructed at all? If the soul is removed, how would the damned know they are damned, is the soul not what makes us sentient?

I do not believe hell is when God removes your soul, rather I'm more inclined to believe it is when God leaves you in spiritual blindness, without the capacity to experience Him.

This is noticibly getting into deeper territory, but allow me to explain how I view the soul and body. I believe the soul part provides you with your ability to experience the "feltness" of things such as the what it tastes like of beer (i.e, phenomenal qualia), and your body is the medium through which the experience of such things is possible. Without your body, I believe you could not think, self-reflect and so forth. But without your soul, given your organic body could still live on, we would just be apart of the physical processes carrying on throughout the physical universe. We wouldn't have any recognition of experiences or what was happening to us, and we wouldn't have libertarian freedom that enables us to assume control of our physical body and be responsible for our actions. Instead we would perhaps just be more like grass, following the cycles set out in the natural order. However, we do appear to transcend natural processes, and assume control of our own lives.

Now when our physical body perishes, I believe we truly become disembodied, and we (our essense) enters a state of no experience, and no thought. Now God could perhaps provide us with a body that allows us to retain some sort of conscious experience, and I'm inclined to think Christians, having been born spiritually, will be able to experience God at death through their spiritual body.

So then... where are these disembodied souls? Such a question presupposes that physical laws such as space are applicable to soul substances, so that it can be answered that the soul exists in such and such a location. My reply would be it is not a question that can be answered, because the question asks something contradictory. It cannot be asked where our soul is, for it doesn't have physical properties as our body has. For example, where are moral values we hold to be true? Inside us some may reply... but then where inside me, and what do they look like? This naturally gets into a physical reductionist vs. dualist debate, but lets not go there. The point I'm getting at is the question of where is our soul cannot be asked, for it is treating the soul as a physical substance, something it isn't.

Kurieuo.

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:09 pm

phew...good questions.

perhaps after judgement, God will finally leave hell and he will no longer be a presence to all those who have chosen to be there (because he is all powerful he can chose to do this). i don't think that he will leave the devil in charge. the fact that he is not there is punishment enough--everyone will be totally alone to carry on there lives without him. sounds pretty horrible to me.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:56 am

I believe that christians will only have eternal life, so what about the idea that hell could be both spiritual suffering and spiritual death?

I'm aware that one verse regards hell as "eternal destruction"
any thoughts?

August · Post by **August** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:26 am

Kurieou - I mostly agree with your assessment of what a soul is. (BTW, this also creates a problem for evolutionists, i.e. when and how did man become a "self", or get a soul?).

I do however, struggle to get your logic around two things...for God to leave one in spiritual blindness, after death, means that the soul has to be somewhere, if we assume every man has a soul. Even if the soul is "blind", that essence has to exist somewhere, regardless of time/space, it can be in another dimension? God did give man a soul, even if it does not have physical properties, it was still created and therefore must exist somewhere? The place where these blind souls are collected would be hell? Or do you mean to be a bit more abstract about it, e.g. that heaven is everywhere and hell is everywhere, one is just being able to tie your essence into God and the other is not?

Colors - I hear what you are saying, but God is infinite, therefore God is everywhere by defintion? That means He can't leave anywhere, He can however choose to be passive.

vvart - Hell seems to be spiritual suffering. I struggle with the concept of spiritual death, that would imply that the spirit can be destroyed, but hell is eternal damnation, so if the spirit is destroyed, it cannot be eternal?

Thanks for all the replies, it once again shows how incredibly complex and wonderful God is.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:32 am

August wrote:Kurieou - I mostly agree with your assessment of what a soul is. (BTW, this also creates a problem for evolutionists, i.e. when and how did man become a "self", or get a soul?).

I think the majority of atheists who believe in evolution would deny that there is such a thing as a soul. It's only really a problem for those who want to view humans as special but also believe that they're part of the same "family tree" as the rest of the biological world.

August · Post by **August** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:04 am

It becomes a problem for atheists to ignore the fact that man has a consciousness, self-awareness or sentience, because that very characteristic is the one that allows us to ask ourselves the questions they are attempting to answer through the TOE. If man does not have the ability to know that he exists, in a universe, and can form emotions, perceptions and experience, he also is not able to ask questions such as why are we here, how did we come to be here etc. It is a problem on the same level for atheists as the big bang and the orgin of life, and I have not seen any real scientific answers on what makes man a man. There is a lot of neurological theories around this, but it does not really explain the higher plain of existence which allows us to create, think in abstract terms, have emotions, question our existence, believe in God, or otherwise philosophize.

Here is an experiment...suppose you duplicate every part of a human by using machines, either mechanical or bio-mechanical, or even clone someone, would that duplicate be the same person or personality as the one that was duplicated? Remember, he is biologically or functionally the same in every way. If the answer is yes, then man's sentience is purely a biological/chemical function, and the atheists are right. If the answer is no, then there has to be some outside influence that creates unique awareness.

Just some food for thought, little off topic.