Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:47 am**

On another forum someone is attempting to persuade me that God created evil and therefore supposedly has evil within Him.

I think I have debunked that sufficiently - that God did not create, nor is a doer of, moral evil. The argument was based on Isaiah 45:7 which one of the God and Science articles by Rich Deem does a good job of handling.

But now I am being told that Jesus has a son. This is news to me, and I know of nothing (yet) that would convince me that is so.

Here is what I am being told:

All things are by Him and for Him. Without evil the crucifixion would have never happened. Even though one might say that the Cross of Christ was needed because of evil, God created evil for a purpose that suits Him. The bottom line is that God intends to have man in both His Image and Likeness as He has started that from the beginning, and that includes knowledge of evil. When the form of man (Adam) was given life, it was made from the earth before the curse so Adam only knew what was good. However God does not desire robots for sons so the entire scene of the fall of man was part of the plan for man to come into the likeness of God.

Before we say that Lucifer is Satan (Isaiah 14) we need to consider who his father is. He is called to be the son of the morning, morning star or dawn of the day depending on which translation you use even though most leave out the word Lucifer.

We are told to live by every Word of God and what comes from His lips does not change. We are also told to rightly divide and correctly line up the word of God in accordance with those who taught how to obtain spiritual wisdom versus mans wisdom. Having said that lets take a look at whom the morning star or daystar is.

Re.22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

2nd Pet.1: 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Mal.4: 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

The first verse above clearly states that Jesus who is God incarnate is the morning star and I believe general understanding allows us to understand that Jesus is the day star in our hearts of 2nd Pet.1: 19. This is witnessed in Re.2: 28 where Jesus promises the ones who overcome as He did the gift of the morning star and He would certainly not reward one with giving them anything to do with Satan. The last verse is a clear reference to Jesus appearing on earth and please note that he is clearly compared to being the Sun.

What I have written so far is contrary to standard evangelical teaching so I will wait to see if we are proceeding together on this subject before I continue further. However I want to leave you with the thought and understanding that Lucifer is the son of Jesus and certainly not Satan because the Bible says so. Unfortunately that is not what is taught in most churches

If anyone knows what this is about and can give me some more conventional Scriptural understanding of it, it would be very welcome.

Posted: **Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:14 am**

So, let me get thiss straight. He is saying:

(1) Lucifer is not Satan?

(2) Lucifer was begotten by Jesus?

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Here Satan is called the 'son of the morning' not son of the 'morning star'.

I'm not sure where this guy gets his ideas.

It is quite clear from reading the Word that Satan is indeed the name given to the fallen angel who was originally called Lucifer (as in brightness). As you can see from the description given to the being in Isa 14 it has the same contextual attributes as in rev 12.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Unfortunately that is not what is taught in most churches

That is because the general consensus is that Lucifer is Satan and was never born of Christ. He was an angel created by God then fell after iniquity was found in him.

Posted: **Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:56 am**

Lucifer:

hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

Here we see the brightness and former glory of satan. I believe thats what the author was trying to convey. That before his fall satan was like unto the brightness of the morning star. No more no less.

Posted: **Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:09 pm**

Thanks, IRQ.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:51 pm**

No problem Judah. I did dig up some more supportive scripture if your interested:

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Psa 148:2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
Psa 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
Psa 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

The angels were all created, not begotten

Evidence for God from Science

I'm being told that Jesus had a son

I'm being told that Jesus had a son