Evidence for God from Science

Has anyone seen this program?
Shepherd's Chapel comes on late at night. It's a ministry from Gravette, Arkansas, and a man by the name of Arnold Murray (and his son) pastor the church and host the tv program.
Arnold Murray comes across as so rude. If anyone sends in mail asking a question that he feels is obvious or dumb, he answers their letters in such a condescending manner, often calling others liars, deceivers, idiots, losers, etc.
Some of his teachings include:

1. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are really three offices held by the one God. There is no trinity.
2. Hell is not real.
3. The Rapture will not happen.
4. There's no such thing as a physical resurrection.
5. Sinners don't go to hell. They simply cease to exist.
6. Old Testament kosher laws regarding meat should be followed.
7. Eve had literal sexual relations with the serpent.
8. The offspring of Eve's impregnation resulted in Cain, Satan's offspring.
9. The Kenites are the tares of the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13.
10. Satan's fallen angels impregnated women around the time of Noah.
11. Interracial marriage is wrong and mixed-race children are mistakes.
12. Being born again is to enter into this body from a spiritual body of another age.
13. America and Britain are the lost tribes of Israel. (also taught by white supremicist churches)
14. People were alive in a pre-existence.
15. There was an earth age prior to Adam where a race of people lived.
16. The Rapture is a false doctrine.

How can anybody be taken in by a guy like this?

Son Worshiper wrote:Has anyone seen this program?
Shepherd's Chapel comes on late at night. It's a ministry from Gravette, Arkansas, and a man by the name of Arnold Murray (and his son) pastor the church and host the tv program.
Arnold Murray comes across as so rude. If anyone sends in mail asking a question that he feels is obvious or dumb, he answers their letters in such a condescending manner, often calling others liars, deceivers, idiots, losers, etc.
Some of his teachings include:

1. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are really three offices held by the one God. There is no trinity.
2. Hell is not real.
3. The Rapture will not happen.
4. There's no such thing as a physical resurrection.
5. Sinners don't go to hell. They simply cease to exist.
6. Old Testament kosher laws regarding meat should be followed.
7. Eve had literal sexual relations with the serpent.
8. The offspring of Eve's impregnation resulted in Cain, Satan's offspring.
9. The Kenites are the tares of the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13.
10. Satan's fallen angels impregnated women around the time of Noah.
11. Interracial marriage is wrong and mixed-race children are mistakes.
12. Being born again is to enter into this body from a spiritual body of another age.
13. America and Britain are the lost tribes of Israel. (also taught by white supremicist churches)
14. People were alive in a pre-existence.
15. There was an earth age prior to Adam where a race of people lived.
16. The Rapture is a false doctrine.

How can anybody be taken in by a guy like this?

http://www.carm.org/chapel/arnold_murray.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Murray

Some will be glad to know he is King James only however. He's also a Gap Theory creationist.

How much of Pastor Murray have you listened to? From the amount of topics that you covered in your list, it appears that you have listened to quite a bit of what Pastor Murray has to say. He does not cover all of those topics in one or even two lectures.

I respect your opinion, you are entitled. My opinion, I have actually been to the Shepherd's Chapel, and to several Passover services in Branson, MO. There were nearly 4,000 people at the last Passover, nearly every state was represented including several countries. There is usually 250 to 400 baptisms that take place, and the fellowship is tremendous. I have been studying the King James Bible in the original languages for the past 8 years and I agree with what Shepherd's Chapel teaches, my opinon.

Tugger wrote:How much of Pastor Murray have you listened to? From the amount of topics that you covered in your list, it appears that you have listened to quite a bit of what Pastor Murray has to say. He does not cover all of those topics in one or even two lectures.

I respect your opinion, you are entitled. My opinion, I have actually been to the Shepherd's Chapel, and to several Passover services in Branson, MO. There were nearly 4,000 people at the last Passover, nearly every state was represented including several countries. There is usually 250 to 400 baptisms that take place, and the fellowship is tremendous. I have been studying the King James Bible in the original languages for the past 8 years and I agree with what Shepherd's Chapel teaches, my opinon.

Studying the King James Bible in the original languages?

What does that mean? The original King James English that Peter and Paul spoke?

Seriously. What do you mean by that?

Hebrew and Greek

Tugger wrote:Hebrew and Greek

So then. You use the textus receptus text and ignore the other textual traditions?

Canuckster1127 wrote:

Tugger wrote:Hebrew and Greek

So then. You use the textus receptus text and ignore the other textual traditions?

I use many study tools, including the Interlinear Hebrew-Greek-English Bible. I am unclear as to what you are referring to when you use the word "traditions". Please explain, and thank you kindly.

The King James Version was translated in 1611 using what were the best known manuscripts available. We don't have the original manuscripts. In other words, the original scrolls that Paul, for example, wrote the letter to the Galatians, on, we don't have.

Because Paul's letter to the Galatians was recognized even early on as very valuable and important and because other churches wanted to hear what he had to say, copies were made. Then copies of the copies were made etc., etc.

1500 years or so later, with the KJV, the best known of these were put together and the scholars who made the translation of the KJV put together they're best understanding of what the original must have been. Then they translated it into the English of the day. Because this was about the time that the printing press came and also the time that the Church of England broke away from the Catholic church and it was decreed that the common people could read the Bible in their own language the KJV became very influential as THE english Bible.

Over time, though, many other manuscripts have been found. Some of them very old.

When the KJV was translated, it was assumed that whatever the majority of the manuscripts on hand said was likely what the original said. However with more scrolls and parchments having been discovered, and more study and thought, translators came to realize that it wasn't good enough to take a majority of texts. There were distinct families of texts that obviously belonged together because they they had copied from a common scroll or from each other.

So, you could have 400 scrolls from one such "family" of scrolls or a tradition that said one thing and maybe only one parchment (a very old one) that said something else. Even though there are many scrolls from the one tradition, it might be that the one text that had a different variant of the passage is to be preferred.

These advances in both the scrolls and understanding how to classify and use them in making a translation, combined with the changes in language in English from 1600 until now is why other translations were needed and made.

Sorry if that sounds pedantic, but I have a degree in Biblical Literature and this is what I spent a great deal of time and effort studying to understand.

So, when you say you study the KJV in the original languages, that sounds very strange to me. The KJV is a translation. It was based on a collection of manuscripts which have since come to be known as the Textus Receptus. Many more manuscripts and traditions have been discovered since then.

Most of those people who are KJV only (which as a student of Murray, I would expect you to be) do not use Greek and Hebrew tools. There are certainly not many that would be based only on the Textus receptus. An interlinear may use the KJV text but the Greek and Hebrew used would not necessarily be the exact Greek and Hebrew used to translate into the KJV.

Most KJV only adherents, don't really care to delve into the Greek and Hebrew as they take the position that the KJV itself was translated under inspiration and therefore can be relied upon in and of itself. In fact, they would shy away from it entirely as unnecessary and confusing.

That is why I found your comments odd.

http://www.naminggrace.org/id51.htm


The Racism of Arnold Murray


Arnold Murray is part of the Neo-Nazi "Identity" movement. His widely watched Shepherd's Chapel is on television daily throughout the United States. Because he uses some terminology different than other Identity preachers many watchers do not realize he is a racist. It should be noted that he claims he is not a racist. However, on tape #406, Grace:Baptism, Murray states, "Bless your heart if you have ever been deceived by the Kenite, and I am speaking now on the spiritual level, if you have ever really believed that group was the chosen of God you were deceived by Satan. Repent of that even more so than your personal sins in the personal sense." In Christian terminology only Christians and Jews are referred to as the chosen of God. Since he obviously is not talking about Christians he must be talking about the Jews.

Murray believes that Cain was a product of a sexual union between Eve and Satan. He believes that from Cain's family, who he defines as half devils, came the tribe of Kenites. They became wood cutters and water carriers for the Israelites. Murray insists the Kenites wormed their way into the priesthood and leadership of Israel. He believes that when Jesus called the Jewish leaders sons of Satan he was referring to the Kenites in a physical way. Murray also believes that Jesus' reference to the tares growing with the true grain was also a reference to the Kenities. In reality Arnold Murray is calling the Jews half devils.

In tape #412, Demons, Murray states:
Their sons don't cast out devils - they love them . . . I'm saying it because its a fact. They love them. It works in their favor - works to their advantage. Why do they steep themselves in pornography? Why do they steep themselves in carnality? Why do you think their own Talmud is the filthiest piece of literature ever written because they're at home with it. They love it. Its their cup of tea. Its Satan's cup of tea.

This could not be more clear, Murray is maligning the Jews, and the process he uses is scripture twisting. There is a racist tone in much of Murray's teaching. In tape # 406, Grace Baptism, Murray attempts to explain the meaning of Ephesians 2:12-14; verses that in reality speak of the oneness of those in Christ whether they are Jews or Gentiles. He says:

But He is our peace who have made both one and have broken down the wall of partition between us" -- Now let me just say something. What Paul would have you do here to clearly understand this is to understand the prophet Ezekiel -- Ezekiel made it very clear what this partition was (verse 14) but the partition was made in its regular place for the separation of all people, kindred's, etc., but the Spirit , the one Spirit that flowed from the throne fed all- remember - let me just prompt your memory - remember Ezekiel was taken, he was shown the Spirit, lets call it the Spirit of God . . . and Ezekiel could go in certain places in the Spirit but he came to the river. A river where the river was so swift that he could not cross it -- What do you think that was he couldn't cross? Because there was a people on the other side of that river that he could never associate with -- Don't you see it was the divider, the boundary, bless your heart, there was food on both sides of that river. Oh the entire plan of God everything in its place in its proper place. . . .That is why that they all became one only in as much as they feed from that Spirit. But that is the extent of it.

There are several other problems with Murray's theology. He does not believe in the three persons of the Trinity. He is a modalist, believing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mere offices. He, also, promotes a strange view of justification by faith which has more to do with works than grace. However, in this short essay I intended to emphasize Murray's racism. I am posting on this page a picture of tape #406, Grace:Baptism, since several people have stated that Murray claims he never offered that tape. I am also linked to an excellent article on Arnold Murray by Christian Research Institute at Upper Streams Ministries. It is entitled "Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel."
Arnold Murray

I've seen his show on TV a few times. It makes me feel like I'm at some bizarre cult meeting in a farm house.

People actually believe this Murray guy?

If that wasn't so sad, it could go in the humor section.

My neighbor does... And you are right, whenever you question his beliefs about the Bible he get's EXTREMELY violent. I thought he was going to put my head through the wall the other day when I questioned him about a certain Bible verse. Now I know where he get's it...

It's almost laughable that he gets so upset by a simple question... Wow.

Unfortunately, it is rubbing off on his followers and this is particularly troublesome since there is a recording of him pulling a gun on someone who disagreed with him in a teaching setting.

G -

As we can recognize a true believer by his works --- pulling a gun is definitely not a sign of a content and calm heart within Christ.

An audience member shouts "Blasphemer!" to which he pulls a gun. Why not have a discussion with the heckler and come to some understandings? Why not simply ask why and continue with his lessen. Christianity teaches non-violence as a means to settle a dispute.

Atticus Finch wrote:As we can recognize a true believer by his works --- pulling a gun is definitely not a sign of a content and calm heart within Christ.

An audience member shouts "Blasphemer!" to which he pulls a gun. Why not have a discussion with the heckler and come to some understandings? Why not simply ask why and continue with his lessen. Christianity teaches non-violence as a means to settle a dispute.

I think you are answering all your own questions.

Greetings everyone. I grew up as a Roman Catholic (RC). Over the last 15 years I have been a member of the Shepherd's Chapel church. In response to the initial question and for those who read this to understand me better, I will just clarify some of the distortion that surrounds our church.

This is a link to our statement of faith:

http://www.shepherdschapel.com/statement1.htm

At our church we use and study the Companion Bible, which is a King James Bible, with side columns written by Dr. E W Bullinger. Here is a link to it:

http://www.companion-bible.com/CBPdffiles/

We also use Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Here is a KJV link with a built in Strong's. Just click on the highlighted word to see what the word means in it's original language.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/index2.htm

We also use other study tools, including Greene's Interlinear Bible, the Massorah and Smith's Bible Dictionary. This is a link to the dictionary.

http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?char=G

At Shepherd's Chapel, we study the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We believe this is based on what is stated in Isaiah 28:10, as the true method of studying God's Word.

Isa 28:10, For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little:

As for the questions asked on the original post, I will respond as honestly as I can based on what the Bible says and not what what my personal opinion is, just to clarify and dispell myths:

We do believe in the Trinity of God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.

We believe Hell is a concept and not a place. In most places where the English word Hell is transliterated from Hebrew and Greek in it means grave. We believe that the "lake of fire" mentioned in the Book of Revelation is a figure of speech and not to be taken literally as a place. We believe that at the very end of this second age, before the third age begins, that God will annihalate Satan and all those who follow him.

We believe that the "Rapture Theory" is a false Biblical teaching, and that God is against it. This is based on what is stated in Ezekiel chapter 13, where God states He is aginst those that teach his children to fly to save their souls and reiterated by Paul in 2Thess 2:4. We believe that Jesus' explantion of the first one taken in Matthew 24, is taken or deceived by the antichrist, and the one left are Christians who will not be deceived when the antichrist comes, disguised as and claiming to be God.

We do not believe in a physical ressurection. The Bible says we have two bodies: one physical, one spiritual. We believe this is Biblically sound, based on 1Cor 15:44. We believe that when the physical body dies, it returns to the ground it came from and that the spiritual body, returns to God who gave it. This is based on Ecc 12:7 and 2Cor 5:6-8.

We believe that all souls are God's, based on what is stated in Eze 18:4. When a person dies, their soul or spirit body, returns to God, it's righful owner, in the heavenly dimension. We believe that this heavenly dimension is split into two parts by a gulf as described in Luke 16, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. We believe everyone goes to heaven, the good, bad and ugly. Only at the end of the second age will God destroy those who follow Satan.

We do believe that the Old Testament Kosher laws are still in effect, based on what Jesus says about the law in Matt 5:18. We do beleive that God created these creatures, that they are beautiful animals but that they were never meant to be eaten. God created these animals as scavengers to clean up the filth of the earth and to eat them would endanger your health, based on Leviticus 11. There are other animals which God created to be eaten and received. Some will claim that Peter's vision of unclean animals in Acts, which God tells him to partake in, nullify's this but we believe that God is using the analogy of unclean animals to represent non-Israelites which became believers and is reminding Peter that Christ's death on the cross, was for all people, not just Israelites.

We do believe that Eve and Adam had sexual relations with Satan. We believe the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is Satan himself. A study on the prime root of the Hebrew word for tree should help to alleviate any confusion on this. We believe the 'serpent' is also speaking of Satan. It is the Hebew word "nakhash", meaning, shining one. We believe that Cain is the son of Satan and Eve. We believe that Cain killed Abel to destroy any chances of Christ being born, because from Eve down through the generations, Christ would be born. We believe that Cain had children, which would later be known as the "Kenites", a Hebrew word meaning sons of Cain and mistranslated as Judah and metalsmiths. We believe these Kenites over time, moved back into the land of Israel, infiltrated the Israeli priesthood and lived in the district of Judah and they lived there for so long, they called themselves Jews when they weren't Jews at all. This is based on 1Chron 2:55. We believe that Jesus had a discourse with their descendants many years later in the temple, as described in John 8, when he calls them the children of the devil and he calls them that because that is what they literally are. We believe that it was the Kenites in the crowd that shouted to Pilate to crucify Christ. And Jesus says that all the righteous blood from Able to Zechariah were slain by the Kenites, according to Matt 23:35 and Lk 11:51. We believe the Kenites are used by God to fulfill the negative part of His overall plan.

We do believe that the Kenites are the tares in Jesus' literal explanation to the disciples, in the parable of the tares of the field. He first tells the parable, then He expalins it literally to the disciples. When He explains it literally, he says the enemy that sowed them is the devil and that the tares are the children of the wicked one. If Jesus explains something literally, there is no reason to try and explain it further and he says that Satan had literal children in this parable. There can be no other possible explanation.

We do believe that Satan's fallen angels impreganated women at the time of Noah and the sole purpose of the flood was to destroy their offspring, the giants or geber, which is translated in the English as the word man in Gen 6. The world had become corrupt at this time and it took Noah 500 years to find a wife. It was another attempt by Satan to thwart Christ being born. We believe that God has sentenced Satan to death according to Eze 28 but that he hasn't been executed yet. We believe that 7000 of these fallen angels return with Satan before Christ's return and that when Christ returns to the earth, they will be the first ones destroyed, for they have already been judged according to the Book of Jude.

We believe that in the Genesis account of creation, there were two seperate creations of man. One on the sixth day and the other on the eighth day. This is based on the different words used for the English word "man", one found in Gen 1:26, which is the Hebrew word 'haadam', meaning mankind or humankind and the other used in Gen 2:7, the Hebrew word, 'eth haadam', meaning, "the man Adam." Our church has been accused of racism on this subject, but that is not true. It based entirely on what the words actually mean in their original languages. Many people of different races attend the yearly Passover celebrations the Chapel hosts. If this confuses you, I would suggest using a Greene's Interlinaer Bible to look up the differences on the words used for man, for yourself.

Being born again, as used by Jesus in John 3, in actuality means being born from above. The Bible clearly speaks of three ages, in 2 Peter 3. God created all souls in the beginning. All souls were created by God, all souls were with God, all souls came from God. God destroyed that first age as documented in Jeremiah 4 and created this age; the second age. God created man and gave man the ability to reproduce. In each of the children that were born, God placed a soul that was with Him in that first age. When the physical body dies, the soul God placed in the physical body returns to Him. Many Chrsitians do no understand that the flood Peter is speaking of in 2Pet 3, is the flood that destroyed that first age, not the flood of Noah as it has been incorrectly taught.

Some say that the Chapel teaches what is known as "British Israelism." Israel consisted of twelve tribes. Many try to compound the House of Israel with the House of Judah but they are two seperate houses. We believe that after the Assyrian army captured the Northern Kingdom of Israel and it's ten tribes, circa 710 BC, that the descendants of those tribes migrated from the cities of the Medes where they were placed, crossed the Caucusus mountains and became the caucasian peoples of Europe. This is based on what Adam's name means, translated, not transliterated, which means, "ruddy complected or blood close to the face." We believe that God created all the races on the sixth day and it was very good. But he created the Adamic line of peoples so that he could be born through that bloodline. There is nothing racist or white-supremist about this whatsover because this is what is stated from the meanings of those words in the original languages. We believe that according to Gen 49, God promised to always have a monarch on the throne of Israel, according to Jacob's blessing of Judah. After Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon conquered the southern kingdom of Judah, he killed all of the son's of the last king of Judah. The daughters or princesses, however, were taken to Egypt by Jeremiah the prophet. The palace of the daughter of the king of Judah was discovered by archaeologists in the late 19th century in Egypt. Jeremiah was given an order by God to plant in Jer 1 and there is enough evidence to point out that Jeremiah brought these daughters to Ireland, where they formed the Irish line of kings. From Ireland, they migrated to Argyleshire, then to Scotland. Documantation of Scotland's royal blood line can be found on the Scottish declaration of Independence from 1320. The last king of Scotland was James VI, who became James I of England. Queen Elizabeth the Second is a direct descendant of James I, and another reason why we use the King James Bible at the Chapel. When Christ returns to the earth, all thrones, including the monarch of Britain, will abdicate to Him because He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

People were not alive in pre-existence. We existed as souls in the beginning with God in our spiritual bodies. We did not have physical bodies. Job 38 : 7 and Rev 12:4 should help to document that we existed in that age, before we were born as humans.

There was an Earth Age prior to this one. The Bible makes perfectly clear that the earth is millions of millions of years old. This is what is stated in Gen 1:1. The destruction of that age is described in Gen 1:2. The English word was, should be the the word "became." According to what God states in Isa 45, He did not create the earth void. It "became" that way after the rebellion of Satan. This age is relatively young compared to that first age.

Pastor Murray is a passionate Christian. He cares about people and believes that many people in this generation are being deceived because they not only don't read the Bible, but don't read it with understanding, which is part of the great apostacy, right before Christ's return. And the Bible says to, "rightfully divide the Word." He does not ask for money and I have found him to simply be the best teacher I have ever found of the Word. He has been accused of many false teachings by other Chrisitans. When he said to check out the words for yourself, I did and found he was telling the truth. He is not perfect, for only one was born that was.

We also believe that we are presently living in the Biblical "time of the end". This is the only reason that Jesus says to learn the parable of the fig tree in Matt 24 and Mk 13. There are only four things Jesus says to learn in the Gospels and he says to learn that parable, twice. No, we will not know the day or the hour, but he tells us the parable, to let us know the season. The answer to the parable is this: When Israel becomes a country, that is the sign to know when the beginning of the last generation starts and that happened in 1948, when Israel became a country, for the last time it was a country was circa 710 BC, right before the Northern Kingdom known as Israel was conquered by the Assyrian army.

Thank you to those who set up this site. It is good and refreshing to meet like-minded individuals who believe in God.

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.