Evidence for God from Science

Putting the bible to one side for a moment I want you to think about why death is a bad thing for a human. This isn't to say that you should forget the bible but I dont want any bible quotes here I want you to think for yourself.

Death makes people feel bad especially when its a person who dies. We know that they are unique and their personality cannot be fully replicated or replaced. We know that they had things which would make them happy and give them pleasure which will no longer happen. We feel sorry for this poor being who can no longer fulfil his/her life.

Whether such feelings were given to us by God, as is most people's opinion, or whether these feelings arrived by evolution and the ability for these feelings to helps our species survive, as is the more traditional scientific view, this is surely the reason a human death is so tragic.

In effect it is the genuine loss of a person's personality which is tragic about death.

Now, without any prejudice and instinctive feeling on the subject, when a phoetus is aborted their is not the same loss which I am refering to. Thats not to say their is no loss but at the time of death the person has no personality. The phoetus has nothing to make it happy, has no knowlege, has no thoughts etc... It knows nothing of the world and pain and pleasure are meaningless to it.

In this sense making the child's parent suffer for a mistake they made is surely more cruel than terminating a life which hasn't yet started?

Please dont quote me the bible. You have a brain tell me what you think.

itdontgo wrote:Putting the bible to one side for a moment I want you to think about why death is a bad thing for a human. This isn't to say that you should forget the bible but I dont want any bible quotes here I want you to think for yourself.

Death makes people feel bad especially when its a person who dies. We know that they are unique and their personality cannot be fully replicated or replaced. We know that they had things which would make them happy and give them pleasure which will no longer happen. We feel sorry for this poor being who can no longer fulfil his/her life.

Whether such feelings were given to us by God, as is most people's opinion, or whether these feelings arrived by evolution and the ability for these feelings to helps our species survive, as is the more traditional scientific view, this is surely the reason a human death is so tragic.

In effect it is the genuine loss of a person's personality which is tragic about death.

Now, without any prejudice and instinctive feeling on the subject, when a phoetus is aborted their is not the same loss which I am refering to. Thats not to say their is no loss but at the time of death the person has no personality. The phoetus has nothing to make it happy, has no knowlege, has no thoughts etc... It knows nothing of the world and pain and pleasure are meaningless to it.

In this sense making the child's parent suffer for a mistake they made is surely more cruel than terminating a life which hasn't yet started?

Please dont quote me the bible. You have a brain tell me what you think.

Why so angry?

First, what right do you have to tell someone what to use as a foundation for their thinking and values?

If your point is that without the Bible as a foundation upon which to assess values there is no point to human life then I tend to agree with you.

Where you may make a mistake is in imagining that this is the only situation where your thinking applies.

Think about what you're making the basis for a decision here.

In effect, you are saying that a fetus is not truly human until it can feel pain and is self-aware. Therefore, prior to that it is piece of flesh without inherent worth or value except what the woman carrying it chooses to assign to it.

What is to stop this "value system" from being applied in other situations?

Medical technology exists which through the use of anesthesia, can remove all physical sense of pain. Therefore pain is no longer a barrier for what you want to do to any form of human life that for one reason or another, you or society no longer see as valuable and worthwhile.

This of course begs the question why so many who favor abortion justify the procedure in part on this basis, but then in the instance of capital punishment by lethal injection claim it to be cruel and unusual punishment. See any conflict there?

Why just apply this standard here? At the end of life people suffer from dementia. Why not just end life then? Under your proposed rationale which provides no basis for human life to be valued beyond self-awareness and the lack of pain, why maintain human life when it ceases to be convenient or productive to society?

The bottom line for me however is that there is a God, there are standards or human morality and on this basis there is intrinsic value to the life of an individual. You may wish to exclude any such mention and demand that no policy be based on such. Thankfully you lack that power to make decisions and form values for anyone other than yourself.

All I need to do is ask you to provide the basis for what values and decisions you would apply in this situation and then ask you to establish why anyone else should accept your values "or absence of them" in a given situation. In the end, the form of thinking you are advocating reduces to anarchy and nihilism. To avoid that you have to make your own logical leap and form a basis for morality or ethics. The basis of that leap will be no more valid that what you assess religion and the Bible as holding.

But that's up to you. I respectfully reject your premise that I have to establish values absent of my religious convictions. Further I have chosen in this instance to simply highlight and illustrate the challenges that your view leaves for you to answer. Are you as able to build your system and then explain why anyone needs to accept it, as you are in seeking to tear down that which you find unacceptable?

That being said, and I'm sure Canuckster1127 would agree; people who have had abortions should not be tormented by others for their mistake - as it is a mistake, and everybody makes mistakes...however bad.

If this topic is especially touchy for you idontgo then I applaud you for having the courage to speak out, no matter what position you take. However, to base human life/existance off whether or not they simply feel is flawed. As Canuckster1127 already explained, feelings alone are not enough to define human life/existance because they simply are not always aparent or applicable in life itself; such as when one takes sedatives or suffers brain damage etc.

The second reason, though, why I'd say that is wrong is because "little ones" do feel pain and it does matter to them - it's just at a more primitive level.

Grace isn't enough... wrote:That being said, and I'm sure Canuckster1127 would agree; people who have had abortions should not be tormented by others for their mistake - as it is a mistake, and everybody makes mistakes...however bad.

If this topic is especially touchy for you idontgo then I applaud you for having the courage to speak out, no matter what position you take. However, to base human life/existance off whether or not they simply feel is flawed. As Canuckster1127 already explained, feelings alone are not enough to define human life/existance because they simply are not always aparent or applicable in life itself; such as when one takes sedatives or suffers brain damage etc.

The second reason, though, why I'd say that is wrong is because "little ones" do feel pain and it does matter to them - it's just at a more primitive level.

I do agree that this is not the unpardonable sin.

There is grace and forgiveness for this. It does not diminish from the seriousness of the act and the loss of a real life however. Thank God for His forgiveness!

Amen, grace is not enough....it's what we do with that grace...