Evidence for God from Science

okay, this is purly information. i want no argument, just answers.
i beleive in the Pre-trib, but that is besided the point...

my question is this:

those that believe in Post-trib..(i believe puritan lad does, and i would like your take) doesnt that mean that we, the saints, go through the Wrath of God. it doesnt make sence to me. doesnt the Word say that we will not go through the wrath of God?((cant remember where)) if so, then why would we go through the tribulation and the seals, trumpets, and bouls...??

ryo dokomi wrote:okay, this is purly information. i want no argument, just answers.
i beleive in the Pre-trib, but that is besided the point...

my question is this:

those that believe in Post-trib..(i believe puritan lad does, and i would like your take) doesnt that mean that we, the saints, go through the Wrath of God. it doesnt make sence to me. doesnt the Word say that we will not go through the wrath of God?((cant remember where)) if so, then why would we go through the tribulation and the seals, trumpets, and bouls...??

There actually is a post-trib, pre-wrath variant of this position.

Ryo,

I'll respond later. My daughter is still recovering from her surgery, so I'm kind of in high demand.

For the record, I am a postmillenial preterist. I believe that the Great Tribulation is past history, occuring in the Apostle's generation (See Matthew 24:21,34).

In the meantime, other preterists please jump in.

God Bless,

PL

those that believe in Post-trib..(i believe puritan lad does, and i would like your take) doesnt that mean that we, the saints, go through the Wrath of God.

No. The “Great Tribulation” (Matthew 24:21) was the persecution of the saints (Matthew 24:9) leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Matthew 24:1-2). All of these things took place within the Apostles' generation (Matthew 24:34).

it doesnt make sence to me. doesnt the Word say that we will not go through the wrath of God?((cant remember where)) if so, then why would we go through the tribulation and the seals, trumpets, and bouls...??

I believe that you are referring to 1 Thessalonians 5:9. However, this scripture makes no mention of a “tribulation period”. The wrath of God, ultimately, is Hell.

Since you are Pre-trib, maybe you can answer a few questions for me:

1.) Where does the Bible mention a pre-trib rapture? A Russian Invasion of Israel? A third Jewish Temple?

2.) Why did Jesus tell his apostle's to flee Judea during the “great tribulation” if it was going to be a worldwide calamity taking place 2,000 years into the future?

3.) Why will the days of the “great tribulation” be shortened for the elect's sake, since, according to Pre-tribbers, the elect will be raptured away before the tribulation even takes place?

4.) Jesus said that the resurrection takes place “on the last day”? Pre-tribbers say that it will take place before a 7-year tribulation period (not to mention a 1,000 earthly kingdom)? Who are we to believe?

5.) According to Pre-tribbers, the resurrection of the righteous dead takes place before the rapture, while the resurrection of the wicked takes place after the “millennium”. When do the “tribulation saints” and/or “millennium saints” get resurrected? Are there now 3 (or 4) resurrections?

6.) To what purposes are the animal sacrifices offered after Christ's millennial reign? According to Revelation 20, the “Gog and Magog” invasion happen after the millennium. However, according to Ezekiel, there will be animal sacrifices after the “Gog and Magog” invasion. What are they for?

7.) Where does the 2,000 year gap come from in Daniel's 70 week prophecy? This still has to be answered, and Daniel made no mention of it. 2,000 years is a pretty significant gap to be ignored in a 490 year prophecy.

That'll be a good Start.

Good afternoon, Ryo Dokomi, Canuckster1127, and Puritan Lad..

My sign in name is crmann, but my real name is Cleveland. Hope you don't mind my joining in. This is very interesting to me, and I cannot help but be amazed at how many different interpretations there are on the sequence of events that are to occur at the end of this age. I just joined this discussion group today, so I look forward to getting acquainted with the folks here.

I was raised to be pre-trib, and this is the doctrine of the majority of the pastors in the Southern Baptist Church. Of course most church members, the pew sitters and Sunday morning attenders, have very little knowledge of this topic. What they do know, they've learned from the Left Behind Series, which I have come to believe is far from being Biblical. As I study the scriptures, I continue to discover too many scriptures which seem to teach otherwise.

I have already noticed a number of posters here, who really need to check, what they are presenting as truth, with the scriptures. But God did make each of us different, didn't He. Hopefully you folk will be able to enlighen me as to my understandings.

Cleveland
An old timer....

crmann wrote:Good afternoon, Ryo Dokomi, Canuckster1127, and Puritan Lad..

My sign in name is crmann, but my real name is Cleveland. Hope you don't mind my joining in. This is very interesting to me, and I cannot help but be amazed at how many different interpretations there are on the sequence of events that are to occur at the end of this age. I just joined this discussion group today, so I look forward to getting acquainted with the folks here.

I was raised to be pre-trib, and this is the doctrine of the majority of the pastors in the Southern Baptist Church. Of course most church members, the pew sitters and Sunday morning attenders, have very little knowledge of this topic. What they do know, they've learned from the Left Behind Series, which I have come to believe is far from being Biblical. As I study the scriptures, I continue to discover too many scriptures which seem to teach otherwise.

I have already noticed a number of posters here, who really need to check, what they are presenting as truth, with the scriptures. But God did make each of us different, didn't He. Hopefully you folk will be able to enlighen me as to my understandings.

Cleveland
An old timer....

Cleveland,

Welcome.

We may some in common. I was raised Premillenial, Pretrib as well. In my ordination process I was weaned on Pentecost's Things to Come, which is pretty dispensational, and militantly pre-trib.

I'm not as militant on that anymore. I tend to fall more to a post-trib pre-wrath position now. The more I think I know as I grow older, the more I am willing to embrace some ambiguity and mystery and drog some of my dogmaticism in some areas. This is one of those, but it is interesting and enlightening to discuss.

Here's a link to our main board on a post-trib pre-wrath article for any who want to know more about this issue.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/tribulation.html

Glad you are here. Please join in and be a part!

Bart

Hello Cleveland,

Like you, I spent most of my Christian Life in a Dispensational, Pre-trib, church. After spending quite a bit of time studying the issue (just before the Y2K uh...crisis??), I became a convinced postmillennial preterist. When I get some time, I'll outline the four major views for you and let you compare with scripture.

Good to have you aboard.

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad wrote:Hello Cleveland,

Like you, I spent most of my Christian Life in a Dispensational, Pre-trib, church. After spending quite a bit of time studying the issue (just before the Y2K uh...crisis??), I became a convinced postmillennial preterist. When I get some time, I'll outline the four major views for you and let you compare with scripture.

Good to have you aboard.

God Bless,

PL

I would like to see that too, PL. I've been a pretribber since I've been saved and I've always had questions about some of the scriptures they use.

To All,

Thanks for the great welcome.

We'll have to compare notes.

I am still trying to put all the events of the end times in order so as not to have any conflict with what the Bible teaches. For example, I am trying to place the two judgements, The Bema and the Great White Throne. There are many books written by the pre trib community, but very few about where things take place otherwise. Then, if there is no pre trib rapture, when does the supper with Jesus take place?

I have so many questions, and so few answers.

Thanks again,

In Christ,

Cleveland,
The old timer.

OK. First I'll summarize each view, without the scriptures. Then, I'll critique the Pre-trib view (and Dispensational view in general) and explain why, in spite of it's recent popularity, I rejected it.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

For those of you that are interested in the post tribulation website that seems to be the most through on the net, please feel free to log on. Tim Warner has posted debates with a Preterist and a response to Thomas Ice. At the bottom of the page, there are 5 links to other post trib sites as well.

Dan

Some post-tribulationists out there believe that the pre-trib. rapture theory was invented around the 1800's .

This is just not true. We have Ephraem's teaching who lived AD 306 to 373.
At least the manuscript dates back to the sixth century if not back to Ephraem himself.

In this document the gap between the 69th week/years and the 70th week/years is explained. Briefly it has to do with Jesus being on the cross on the 69th week.

This gap I have read was also taught in the Epistle of Barnabas (AD 110) and Hippolytus (AD 220). However, I have no first hand knowledge of these.

This I learned from a book I picked up on sale.
"Final Warning" by Grant R. Jeffrey.
I don't know much about him, but the price was so so good.

Myself its almost maybe just some hope that the pre-trib rapture is true and it will happen soon. Thats part of another story though.

God Bless you all

Michael
Thomas

I asked my new pastor about this and he supports the post-tribulation rapture.
Although he just likes to just say second-coming.
Now he also seems to say that people of the church can disagree on some theology,but when it splits the church then that is of Satan.

Anyways, he gave me some good argument against the pre-tribulation theory. I will have to mull it all over and maybe get back to you all.

On a side note I had quite a powerful visit to my first Church in a long long time. I am slowly coming out of the dark days.

Michael
Thomas

bluesman wrote:I asked my new pastor about this and he supports the post-tribulation rapture.
Although he just likes to just say second-coming.
Now he also seems to say that people of the church can disagree on some theology,but when it splits the church then that is of Satan.

Anyways, he gave me some good argument against the pre-tribulation theory. I will have to mull it all over and maybe get back to you all.

On a side note I had quite a powerful visit to my first Church in a long long time. I am slowly coming out of the dark days.

Michael
Thomas

That is Excellent Michael. I am glad you are back at Church and receiving Bread for your Mind and Soul.

God Bless

The list below is a fairly good summary of endtimes views. However, I'm well aware that there is some tendency to mix and match in certain areas, so if I don't represent your particular view exactly, do not get upset. Just post a clarification on where you stand (and why) so that we all may benefit.

Also, the viewpoints are focused on the Book of Revelation in particular. I say this to prevent confusion is other areas. For example, most historicists and preterists are pretty much in agreement in areas such as Daniel's 70 week prophecy and the Olivet Discourse. While I certainly will address these relevant topics as well, the labels below are geared toward Revelation itself.

Premillennialism — Believe that there will be a literal earthly reign by Christ on earth after the Second Advent.

Amillennialism — Believe that there is no literal millennium, but that the millennium represents the current church age.

Postmillennialism — Believe in a future “golden age” (though there is a debate about how golden) when the Jewish people will be converted to Christianity, resulting in a greater blessing for the Gentiles. This will occur before the Second Advent.

Futurism — Believe that the Book of Revelation covers primarily future events. Futurists are almost exclusively premillennial.

Historicism — Believe that the Book of Revelation covers the entire history of the church age from the Apostolic Church. Most modern historicists are Premillennial. Most puritans were postmillennial historicist (at least as far as the Beast of Revelation was concerned.)

Preterism — Believe that the Book of Revelation primarily covers the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. Most preterists are postmillennial. Many are amillennial. There are even a few premillennial preterists.

Dispensationalism — Believe that History is divided up into (usually) seven dispensations or ages, each with a distinct portion of Scripture relating to that age. (I believe that Jac mentioned he believes in 4 ages). Dispensationalists are futurists in regard to the Book of Revelation. These are divided into Pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, and post-trib positions.

Idealism - Believe that the Book of Revelation is a vague allegory depicting an ongoing battle between good and evil.

For the sake of simplicity, I'll forego Idealism right now (I don't believe anyone here holds that view), and focus on the others (particularly the pre-trib, premillennial dispensational view, since it is the most common. It'll actually be the first one I critique.) However, my posts here may be delayed a bit as I don't want to spread myself to thin in regards to the other debate that I'm currently involved in, and I want to give adequate thought to each post.

God Bless,

PL