Evidence for God from Science

Hi,

I've recently started to get interested in Christianity. I've read a little on your main site. Now I hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions. My questions deal mostly with hard facts, as some information, such as if Abraham or Moses existed as historical persons, and then if the events around them happened as described in the Bible, or the existence of afterlife, etc is not possible to absolutely verify. But, if there is strong evidence for Christianity, really strong, then it is no problem to accept the unverifiable things reported in the Bible.

Existence of God

Although I lean towards that God exists, it is hard to put confidence in Him as I'm not certain. I've read a little on arguments and counter-arguments for design and evolution, but most of these stuff were far above my level, as I'm a layman, not a scientist. Besides, evolution does not exclude the existence of God, even though it is incompatible with the Bible. So is there any way to be 100% sure that God exists?

Note that I really think that "skeptics" are not very skeptical when it comes to evolution. At this point, they're ready to defend it to death. Often when they "respond" to critics of their theory (regardless of the critic's religous beliefs), they usually ridicule the critic rather than responding to his criticism.

Evidence for Christianity

The two most common things which I've found is used to prove Christianity is 1. Fulfillment of Prophecies by Jesus and 2. The Resurrection of Jesus. Bad arguments I've seen given for the truth of christianity is that the Bible "has the ring of truth", because this is an utterly subjective criterion. For example, to Muslims, the Qur'an has "the ring of truth". Why would their feelings be inferior to Christian feelings? The first mentioned arguments, I think, contain much stronger evidence, if proven.

1. Fullfilment of Prophecies Now this would be a very strong argument, since somewhere in OT, being able to predict the future is the criterion of a true Prophet. Whereas false Prophets would be able to do miracles, only true Prophets would be able to predict the future. And Christians gladly point to prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, how many they were, and how improbable it would be that he fulfilled them by chance.

Yet what I think is the problem with this is that, how can we know that the Gospel authors didn't add these details to bring credibility to Jesus? And even if we knew that he fulfilled prophecies, how do we know that he did not fulfill them knowingly? After all, Jesus and the authors of the Gospels were not illiterates about OT, and one Gospel is said to be very directly written for the Jews, to prove the parallells between the prophecies and Jesus' acts. For example, the Romans toying with Jesus' clothes during his crucifixion, said to be prophecied about, could very well be an invention to give Jesus more credibility.

What do I mean with fulfilling them knowingly? Well, if I say to someone that my neighbour will buy a last-minute ticket and travel to Russia in seven years, I write it down somewhere (like for example a bok) and he gets to know what is expected of him. Then after seven years he buys a last-minute ticket to travel to Russia. Of course this do not qualify as a prophecy, as he travelled to Russia to fulfill it. So how can we be certain that Jesus simply did these things because he knew what was expected by him, according to what OT had said about the Messiah?

Also, the criterion (as I've understood) is also that the proclaimed Prophet himself must prophecize, not just fulfilling. Did Jesus predict the future in a clear manner, and these events late came to pass? And now I don't mean his supposed prophecy about his crucifixion and Resurrection, but a prophecy that came to pass after the Gospels had been written down?

And some atheists have complained that the prophecies given in the Bible are generally vague and could be interpreted in different ways.

2. The Resurrection of Jesus This is what is often described as the "make it or break it" for Christianity, and Paul wrote that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then their faith was worthless. So, simply, if Jesus rose from the dead, Christianity is true, if he did not, Christianity is false.

Now Christians often report of skeptics who investigated about the Resurrection, and found its evidence so convincing that they became Christians. But rarely more close references are given about these supposedly skeptics-turned-Christians-by-Resurrection. One reference I actually found was about two persons (don't remember their name), one set out to disprove that Saul (later Paul) of Tarsus became a Christian, and one set out to disprove the Resurrection. But these people lived about 600-400 years ago, in other words, way before the textual criticism of the Bible had started.

And also, there are many historians who have researched and scrutinized the Bible, and they don't believe in the Resurrection (or the prophecies for that matter). Here is a quite long article written by an atheist called Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story (6th ed., 2006).

And there is yet another problem. According to OT, prophecy was the criterion, miracles could be produced by both imposters and true prophets, but prophecy was the ultimate criterion to judge wether the claimant was what he claimed to be or if he was an imposter. So even if the Resurrection is true, how do we know that it is not just a miracle of a false Prophet?

Some people say that the willingness of the Apostels to die for their belief in the Resurrection of Jesus proves it. But for example, the Islamic Prophet Muhammed usually stayed up and prayed several hour every night, and even when he got control of all of Arabia, he still lived a simple life, ate dates, drank water, washed his own clothes, gave much of his money to charity, and did not build any palace. So why is his testimony (that he recieved Revelation from God) inferior to the testimonies of the Apostles?

Finally, people at this time were very superstitous. For example, anytime there was an eclipse, people went into their houses and did different rituals to scream away the witches they thought caused it. So how do we know that the Resurrection story simply isn't anything of this kind, for example someone looked very similar to Jesus showed up, and then legendary embellishments added the different things that happened in connection to that? Or that someone who looked very similar to Jesus did a fake show up, just to decieve the disciples for fun or something?

Why do YOU believe Christianity is true?

The two arguments above are the most common, but I'm curious why you believe Christianity is true? I won't ridicule it or anything, regardless of what reason you believe. I'm just curious.

Why don't the Jews believe in Jesus?

Yeah, why don't they? I know there are those Messianic Jews, but they are very few.

Here is a Jewish site expressing why they don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. What is your thoughts?

How do you explain the existence of ex-Christians?

How can you explain that there are ex-Christians who didn't find Christianity convincing? How do you know you're right, and they are wrong?

What about the Jews who don't believe in Jesus?

According to Christianity, the Jews who did not and do not believe in Jesus, will they go to Heaven? This is more a question of curiousity.

About Christian denominations.

NOTE: This exclude the pseudo-Christian sects, such as Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. What I mean here is the "real" denominations, such as Catholicism, Protestantism, Copticism etc.

1. Which Christan denomination do you believe is most correct? Why do you think it is the most correct?

2. What do you think about the other denominations different from yours? Are they unbelievers, or are they still good Christians, or anything else?

Biblical literalism or not?

What is your opinion here? For example, is evolution acceptable and the Genesis account simply symbolic, or is the Bible to be taken literally here? Did Moses live about 1400 B.C (conforms with Biblical literalism) or about 1200 B.C (conforms with history and archeology and a Bible reference)? And there is probably more.

Ancient Egypt and the Bible.

According to the Bible, the Israelites were a few families, and then became about two million (or was it 600.000?) in a few generations, and according to the numbers, they would have been the majority in Egypt, which is unlikely. This is for obvious reasons strange. Also some Muslims claim that the Bible is in error when it names the ruler of Egypt during the time of Joseph as Pharaoh, because the word "Pharaoh" originally meant "great house" and was used about the ruler's palace, only during the New Kingdom it became the epitet of the Egyptian ruler, whereas Joseph lived (if he was a historical person) during the time of Hyksos.

Please see their article: Qur'anic Accuracy Vs. Biblical Error: The Kings & Pharaohs Of Egypt

So, how did the Qur'an avoid the error but not the Bible?

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I've heard that somewhere in the Bible, it is stated that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can not be forgiven whatsoever. So does this means that whoever may have insulted the Holy Spirit, it is impossible for him to be forgiven, even if he regrets it and becomes a Christian?

Nullifiers of faith?

For a Christian, is there anything that nullifies his faith (except unbelief)? Such as if he for example commits a specific act then he is no longer considered Christian, and if he wants to be Christian again he has to re-do the religous process. Such as for example blasphey. Now I know that it is not probable that a Christian would commit blasphemy, but theoretically.

Authors of the Gospels.

I've often read that the Gospels aren't authored by those they are usually attributed to, and that they are much later products. If this is true, then it gives much less credibility to the NT and Christianity in general. So, how is it? What do non-Christian scholars say about it? What do fragments and ancient (complete) copies of the NT tell?

The Bible in different languages.

If I'm to read the Bible, I would prefer doing it in my own language. Does there exist any site with the Bible translated into many different languages? I think I've a reasonably good command over the English language, but I would still prefer to read the Bible in my mother tongue, the language of my heart and mind.

If one becomes Christian?

If one becomes Christian, does he has to join a Church and become baptized?

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Now, I've asked a lot of questions, but there are probably more questions I have which I don't have in mind right now. I'll ask other questions if they show up in my mind in this thread in posts. I would be grateful if you answer these questions and thoughts. Of course a single post does not have to answer every question.

The Bible in different languages.

I am not sure what your native language is but....
There are probably other sites, but I go to .http://www.BibleGateway.com
It has many english translation. Also Greek. Plus many other languages

Why do YOU believe Christianity is true?

The two arguments above are the most common, but I'm curious why you believe Christianity is true? I won't ridicule it or anything, regardless of what reason you believe. I'm just curious.

Phew! You asked a lot of darn good questions! I can't wait to read some of the responses that will ensue.

I suggest you Look up Lee strobel and check out his "Case for..." books. He was also a skeptic and investigative reporter who set out to prove it all wrong and ended up giving his life to Christ as a result. I believe the same thing happened to C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell (who in the case of the latter, also has some really great books full of biblical research for skeptics and believers alike)

As for me I put my trust in Christ 28 years ago. I never had any doubts that the bible was the genuine inerrant word of God so the only thing I had to deal with was what I did with what it taught about salvation through Christ's death on the cross. I believe that God drew me as He seems to be drawing you.

For me it came down to faith. Could I believe John 3:16 where it says "God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"?

I knew in my heart that it was true that Jesus is the only way to heaven. I knew in my heart that Jesus was not lying when He said "I am the way the truth and the life". So with the faith, however small it may have been at the time, I asked Jesus to come into my heart and be my Lord and Savior.

Maybe I'm gullible and easily lead, but I don't care, because I believe with all my heart that I have been lead by the one and only God and my Savior Jesus Christ. In short, I just know that I know that I am a child of God.

If I am wrong than I have been swept away by the most wonderful fairy tale ever written. But I know I'm not and could never explain why except that since I have come to Christ nothing else comes close to making me believe there is another "Way" out there that is better than this.

You seem to be on a quest. I hope that your heart is pure in your seeking.

Welcome to the form. Much of what you have asked can be found on the sites home page as well as looking on the Theology Thread. We have diverse opinions and may not agree on everything but we let others express themselves. Sorta of like a cyber forum family

If you are seeking either inductive or deductive reasoning for Christianity keep searching. What Christianity is - is a reality of the soul, mind, and spirit of a person. It involves to transformation processes that proves God exist, is real, and at work today. It is both experiential and logical. If that is what you are seeking, you'll find Christ has been calling you a long time to return.

Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, Buddism and etc., only go so far, they involve working your Right to be a good person and find their definitions of God. They are works based and will leave you with a works-earn-my right-to-be-alive-and-reach-God and can create excuses for why humanity is so prone to stray away from good no matter how one tries to refrain from bad. Some of these ism's will justify evil to promote good - like sucide bombers, and running jets into buildings.

Christianity - simply states - Humanity is flawed and in need of a savior, someone to save us from ourselves. We cannot earn our way to heaven. We need God's grace and forgiveness for all our mucking things up. God provided payment for our sins and transgressions through the work of Jesus Christ.

If you want to know Christianity - become a Christian - recognize there is nothing you can do to earn your way to god's favor. Realize the work of Christ has done for all Humanity and become Born Again. How? Simple, ask. Also others on this forum can help you on this matter more than I can.

What can you expect from becoming born again? Feeling cleansed, a new sense of purpose, next a journey of the soul where God cleanses you from the inside-out, one step and day at a time. In other word's you'll encounter the living God. That simple; therefore, maybe that is why it is so hard for those seeking inductive or deductive methods to find the Lord of Glory.


Now on to your comments on the Jewish faith and Link:

That is the work of the true Jewish Messiah - to bless all Humanity not to make the Jewish people rich and take the wealth of the Gentiles and live happily in Israel. The Jews have that part wrong. Jesus was the Messiah - for the entire world - many Jews, not all, just look at the here and now and refuse to see the process of the suffering servant of God called the Messiah and what his true role was and is.

Many Jews, not all, only look at the future return of Christ and fail to see He came 2000 years ago and began a living process to reach a final goal the bible proclaims. God has not forsaken the Jewish people as book of Romans points out - They'll see the Messiah and some will even welcome a false anti-christ Messiah and be lost. Do not worry about the Jewish people - they are God's people by covenant and He can take care of them.

The reason why many write the stuff you linked too is based on the concept of the oral Torah - which is how someone personally defines it. Also due the the hate and crimes committed against the Jews is why they cannot see Jesus and his work. They do see the End-Time coming of the Messiah but fail to note that the true Messiah fulfilled Promise God made to Abram - A father of many nations - through Abraham all the world will be blessed.

The concept of the Written Torah was brought out be John in John chapter One verses 1-14 - The Word. Before the written word was the oral torah or Word of Instructions from God. St. John was Jewish and that is why He wrote that way - Oral Torah became flesh...

If only the Jewish people could see that! May God open their ears to hear as well as all our own.

God Bless and welcome to the Forum...

PS - do not mind my spelling!

Hi there! It's so great to see someone who is investigating Christianity with an open mind. Your questions are totally valid and well thought out. I am surprised that you consider yourself a layman! (well, not a scientist anyway!).

For me personally, I grew up in a nice Church and my family was "so-so" Christian. When I got to college I took a course in Christianity and it got me really thinking. At that point I knew that I just didn't quite "get it" all those years before. There was nothing I could do to make myself worthy of salvation. I asked God for forgiveness and for Jesus to be my Lord. I think it worked because my relationship with God is a lot more involved and personal now, and I commit to reading the Bible regularly.

But enough about me, on to some of your questions! The first thing I noticed is the one regarding fulfillment of prophecy by Jesus:

Yet what I think is the problem with this is that, how can we know that the Gospel authors didn't add these details to bring credibility to Jesus? And even if we knew that he fulfilled prophecies, how do we know that he did not fulfill them knowingly?

Well the first thing I can say to that is, there are many prophecies that could not have been fulfilled by anyone intentionally (unless you are God, of course) such as:
1. Born in Bethlehem
2. Born of a Virgin
3. Descendant of David
And these are just a few that Jesus fulfilled!

You also made some comments about other Christian denominations. This is an area where I have some experience.

Which Christan denomination do you believe is most correct?

Well, the truth is, ANYONE who believes in the Lord Jesus as the Son of God, who came to earth to atone for all the sins of man, and anyone who repents of their sins and attempts to follow Jesus' life as a perfect example I consider Christian. This swallows up virtually all "denominations" which are mostly all the same anyway! The vast majority of division you may see is of little significance, such as what styles of music should we play in our church, should we drink any alcohol, is secular music OK etc. However, some Christians hold values that I believe to be dangerous and can interfere severly with our relationship with God. Catholics for example teach salvation by both grace (what I believe) and works (what can get you into trouble) Stick to the Bible as your source for authority and I don't think you'll have any problems.

Another of your questions:

If one becomes Christian, does he has to join a Church and become baptized?

Well, the short answer is NO, although explanations of why a person doesn't need to be baptized can get involved. Christians in general feel a need to commune with each other as an assembly of God (as the Bible says we should) and so if you decide to become a Christian I think you will definitely feel drawn to do these things. It's not something you need to worry about right now IMHO!

Well, I hope that helps! Again it's really great that there are people out there searching for the truth. I feel that I have found it and hope that you do too!

krynn9000 wrote:

Which Christan denomination do you believe is most correct?

Well, the truth is, ANYONE who believes in the Lord Jesus as the Son of God, who came to earth to atone for all the sins of man, and anyone who repents of their sins and attempts to follow Jesus' life as a perfect example I consider Christian. This swallows up virtually all "denominations" which are mostly all the same anyway! The vast majority of division you may see is of little significance, such as what styles of music should we play in our church, should we drink any alcohol, is secular music OK etc. However, some Christians hold values that I believe to be dangerous and can interfere severly with our relationship with God. Catholics for example teach salvation by both grace (what I believe) and works (what can get you into trouble). Stick to the Bible as your source for authority and I don't think you'll have any problems.

Just a small clarification on the highlighted portion in so much that Catholicism does not teach that works are necessary to obtain salvation; that is a free gift from God and nothing we can do to earn it. Catholicism teaches that works are necessary, however, in order not to lose our salvation (by falling into mortal sin). What kind of works are we talking about? Not the boastful kind, no. They are exactly the kind of works you stated and I highlighted above, i.e. anyone who repents of their sins and attempts to follow Jesus' life as well as acts of charity and love. That is totally consistent with the message of Jesus Christ as depicted in the Gospel.

In Christ,

Byblos.

Just a small clarification on the highlighted portion in so much that Catholicism does not teach that works are necessary to obtain salvation; that is a free gift from God and nothing we can do to earn it.

No works at all? What about baptism or confirmation. Are these prerequisites? Just curious. I'm concerned about this because my girlfriend's mother, who was a devout Catholic, just passed away and it haunts me to think that she is in hell.

FFC wrote:

Just a small clarification on the highlighted portion in so much that Catholicism does not teach that works are necessary to obtain salvation; that is a free gift from God and nothing we can do to earn it.

No works at all? What about baptism or confirmation. Are these prerequisites? Just curious. I'm concerned about this because my girlfriend's mother, who was a devout Catholic, just passed away and it haunts me to think that she is in hell.

Like I said, the 7 sacraments are there to help a catholic maintain the gift, not to earn it. They bring us closer to God and his Son and give us the strength to nurture and protect God's gift of salvation by walking in Jesus' footsteps. That's what he commanded us to do. Jesus baptized and was baptized. He also commanded his disciples 'to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit'.

If your girlfriend's mom died in a state of grace with God, I would venture to say she's in a much better place right now. And even if she didn't (which I doubt very much, considering what you said about her being a devout catholic), there's always hope my friend. The journey does not end upon one's death, but that's a different topic.

In Christ,

Byblos.

I think I might be able to go along with your statements about works Byblos. Only problem is that it seems to me that many don't share your attitude about this. Great comments though!

krynn9000 wrote:I think I might be able to go along with your statements about works Byblos. Only problem is that it seems to me that many don't share your attitude about this. Great comments though!

Thank you, and I know what you mean. Unfortunately not many take the time to educate themselves about their own faith (and that of others).

Byblos wrote:

krynn9000 wrote:I think I might be able to go along with your statements about works Byblos. Only problem is that it seems to me that many don't share your attitude about this. Great comments though!

Thank you, and I know what you mean. Unfortunately not many take the time to educate themselves about their own faith (and that of others).

Byblos I have to say I really enjoy your Arguments. I may not agree with everything you say but the Roman Catholic Faith does have many rituals to bring you to living a life for God. However you have to choose to live for God first before those tenets are able to be of benefit for you. Just my 2 cents

Byblos wrote:If your girlfriend's mom died in a state of grace with God, I would venture to say she's in a much better place right now. And even if she didn't (which I doubt very much, considering what you said about her being a devout catholic), there's always hope my friend. The journey does not end upon one's death, but that's a different topic.

In Christ,

Byblos.

I must ask respectfully for you to please show me where in the Bible it says that you can get out of Hell or that someone can pray you out of Hell after death.

Thank you for indulging me.

bizzt wrote:

Byblos wrote:

krynn9000 wrote:I think I might be able to go along with your statements about works Byblos. Only problem is that it seems to me that many don't share your attitude about this. Great comments though!

Thank you, and I know what you mean. Unfortunately not many take the time to educate themselves about their own faith (and that of others).

Byblos I have to say I really enjoy your Arguments. I may not agree with everything you say but the Roman Catholic Faith does have many rituals to bring you to living a life for God. However you have to choose to live for God first before those tenets are able to be of benefit for you. Just my 2 cents

I do not disagree but that does not mean we shouldn't prepare for it as children. My younger son's first communion is tomorrow (he's 9). I asked him to tell me really why he's doing it. He replied because he trusts and loves Jesus, and because Jesus asked him to. I believe him.

Fisherman wrote:

Byblos wrote:If your girlfriend's mom died in a state of grace with God, I would venture to say she's in a much better place right now. And even if she didn't (which I doubt very much, considering what you said about her being a devout catholic), there's always hope my friend. The journey does not end upon one's death, but that's a different topic.

In Christ,

Byblos.

I must ask respectfully for you to please show me where in the Bible it says that you can get out of Hell or that someone can pray you out of Hell after death.

Thank you for indulging me.

(I posted a reply to this but it disappeared. Oh well, here it is again).

Before I answer your question, please give me a little insight on what it is that you believe happens to us after death and before the final resurrection and judgement. Do you believe our souls go to heaven? Or to Hell? Or do you believe that we go to Abraham's bosom? Or do you subscribe to the christadelphians' belief that after we die God's breath leaves us and goes back to him (same as any other living being, including animals) and the next thing you know we're at the final resurrection?

Another question is, do you believe anything impure or imperfect can enter heaven? If not, do you believe we can be perfect and pure in this world so that we are fit to enter heaven?

While you're at it, please tell me what this means to you, particularly the highlighted text:

Romans 3:23 wrote: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

and

Mat 12:32 wrote: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

A lot of questions, I know, but in a way I started answering yours. What I am not certain of is why you think I think I can get someone out of hell. We believe we can pray for loved ones not to get to hell; I'm not so sure about getting them out once they get there.

In Christ,

Byblos.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Byblos, I don't mean this in an argumentative way but I can't get around this verse. It seems like it is saying that we need to be right with God before we die. What do you think?