Evidence for God from Science

I posted a review of The Hallelujah Diet Plan in the Book review section.

If you read it, you will not have any problem seeing where I am coming from with regards to it.

Nevertheless, it is becoming an influential teaching in terms of Christian Diet. Other groups exist arguing based on Gen 1:29 that humans were never intended to eat meat and in effect coming up with a vegan diet which is promoted spiritually and a subtle or not so subtle message tied to that diet equating with one's obedience to God Himself how you eat.

I see the theology of this as tied in large part to the same mentality that fuels Young Earth Creationism.

Any thoughts about it?

Here's the source. I DON'T endorse it.

http://www.hacres.com/home/home.asp

I'd love to see Rich do an article on this. I think it ties in with this site well.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Other groups exist arguing based on Gen 1:29 that humans were never intended to eat meat and in effect coming up with a vegan diet which is promoted spiritually and a subtle or not so subtle message tied to that diet equating with one's obedience to God Himself how you eat.

I hope none of them are running zoos Gen 1:30.

I see the theology of this as tied in large part to the same mentality that fuels Young Earth Creationism

How so?

FFC wrote:

I see the theology of this as tied in large part to the same mentality that fuels Young Earth Creationism

How so?

The idea that before the fall there was no death, and everything was "perfect." Therefore, the diet they presume was in effect is seen as God's ultimate will. Meat and anything else is seen as a result of the fall.

FFC wrote:
Quote:
I see the theology of this as tied in large part to the same mentality that fuels Young Earth Creationism


How so?


The idea that before the fall there was no death, and everything was "perfect." Therefore, the diet they presume was in effect is seen as God's ultimate will. Meat and anything else is seen as a result of the fall.

Do you not agree that meat wasn't to be eaten before the fall? I'm not arguing, just curious. I believe in a young earth and to me meat is ok now because God's word says it is...I'm not sure about before.

FFC wrote:

FFC wrote:
Quote:
I see the theology of this as tied in large part to the same mentality that fuels Young Earth Creationism


How so?


The idea that before the fall there was no death, and everything was "perfect." Therefore, the diet they presume was in effect is seen as God's ultimate will. Meat and anything else is seen as a result of the fall.

Do you not agree that meat wasn't to be eaten before the fall? I'm not arguing, just curious. I believe in a young earth and to me meat is ok now because God's word says it is...I'm not sure about before.

Well, I think there are 2 questions that need to be answered in that.

1. Was carnivorous or omniverous behavior present in animals before the fall? Yes, I think it was. There are other threads here that address that. The nutshell answer is that as an Old Earther I believe the Hebrew in Genesis 1 specifically uses terms that apply to carnivores and that that element of the food chain was in place by God's design and not a direct result of the fall. I believe when Rom 5:12 speaks of death it is limited first to humans and then primarily to death in the Spiritual sense although I do believe that physical death entered into the picture for humans at that point as well. I believe death in the natural order within the animal and plant kingdoms was already present. I think that is why when Genesis records the warning of God against eating of the special tree and says that when it is eaten there will be death, Adam understood what death was. Think about it. If Adam did not understand the concept of death how would that word have any meaning to it?

2. Were Humans designed or intended to eat meat prior to the fall? I can't be as dogmatic in my answer in this area and I admit that upfront. The argument from design of Human dental structure and the digestive tract would argue yes. Scripturally in Gen 1:29 I don't see it necessarily as a restrictive command to eat fruits and vegetables only, but I do understand how one could come to that conclusion, and frankly its not a do or die issue for me by any means.

YEC tends to be the position that pushes hard for the introduction of all forms of death into the creation at the point of the fall and bases that premise upon the idea that everything was perfect in the sense of without any flaw (a relative term as we are the ones projecting our concept of perfection onto that time period and not necessarily taking our concepts directly from the text itself.)

That's my thinking.

In any event, I think the advocasy of a vegan diet from Gen 1:29 alone and on that basis arguing for a return to supposedly "perfect" diet on an appeal to spirituality is dangerous and unscriptural.

Among many objections I have, a few are:

1. Vegans have to suppliment their diet with additional nutrients such as Vitamin B12 to avoid nutritional deficiencies (in the case of B12, severe, irreversable nerve damage.)

2. It seems to contradict other warnings in scripture against the release from kosher laws and further the admonition against the prohibition of eating meats in Corinthians.

If you look at the Hallelujah diet, it is far more than a diet. It's adherents are disciples and devotees who "preach" the diet and either outright claim or at best infer, that if you fail to follow it, you are rejecting "God's Plan" for your life.

Sorry. There may well be wisdom, and I think there is, in examining our diet and frankly I think there is much in our diet that we can and should change that will result in better weight management and better health, and cutting down on meat and processed foods is likely very good advice.

I think the Hallelujah Diet crosses several lines. It's admittedly more personal for me as I watched my Dad put all his faith in it and then die a very painful death.

So hopefully that helps clarify some, but I'm happy to discuss it more and even to have my opinion modified if there is good reason to do so.

I think the Hallelujah Diet crosses several lines. It's admittedly more personal for me as I watched my Dad put all his faith in it and then die a very painful death.

So hopefully that helps clarify some, but I'm happy to discuss it more and even to have my opinion modified if there is good reason to do so.

Sorry to hear about your Dad. What you say does make sense.

FFC wrote:

I think the Hallelujah Diet crosses several lines. It's admittedly more personal for me as I watched my Dad put all his faith in it and then die a very painful death.

So hopefully that helps clarify some, but I'm happy to discuss it more and even to have my opinion modified if there is good reason to do so.

Sorry to hear about your Dad. What you say does make sense.

Thanks FFC. This is a passionate topic for me but I am trying very hard not to overstate my concerns and I'm trying to be reasonable.

I really am interested in feedback on this including those who may advocate this or a similar diet.

I held my thoughts to myself with my Dad, because frankly, I did not have any better options for him and I did not want to diminish any hope or faith that he had. I wanted it to work too.

I have to say a Vegan Diet is indeed a great Thing. Look at Daniel... However saying that it is Legalistic/Unscriptural to say that Scripture Tells us to Eat a Vegan Lifestyle.

I have to say a Vegan Diet is indeed a great Thing. Look at Daniel...

Wasn't it God's supernatural power that kept Daniel healthy and not the diet itself? That was my presumption when I read that anyway. Although I do agree that a diet that is primarily vegan is good.

bizzt wrote:I have to say a Vegan Diet is indeed a great Thing. Look at Daniel... However saying that it is Legalistic/Unscriptural to say that Scripture Tells us to Eat a Vegan Lifestyle.

I'm not sure I agree that a Vegan Diet is a great thing. Daniel's veganism was for a brief time in a specific context for reasons of principal, not the diet itself.

I can agree that vegetables and fruits should be primary and that meat is probably way overconsumed in the US and in the West in general.

If someone wants to eat Vegan then go for it. Far too often it seems that the motives for being Vegan appeal to new age spiritualism that equate to animal life as equal to humans.

Tongue firmly in cheek, my personal motto has always included sayings along the lines of:

If it oinks or moos, it Bar-B-Q's.

Salad is not food. Salad is what food eats.

The top of the food chain is no place for carrots.

Joking aside, dietary restrictions, more often than not, seem to have some philosophy or spiritual value attached to them than necessarily a utilitarian bent. I know that is a pretty broad statement and exceptions abound.

Vegans require suppliments to provide nutrients that are not available from plants. That should be a clue right there in my opinion. My general observation as well is that Vegans are overall not particularly healthy and those few I have known (including my parents who adopted it with the Hallelujah Diet) is that in reality they often cheat. I think that cheating is driven in part by the bodies cravings for what is missing in their diet.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

bizzt wrote:I have to say a Vegan Diet is indeed a great Thing. Look at Daniel... However saying that it is Legalistic/Unscriptural to say that Scripture Tells us to Eat a Vegan Lifestyle.

I'm not sure I agree that a Vegan Diet is a great thing. Daniel's veganism was for a brief time in a specific context for reasons of principal, not the diet itself.

I can agree that vegetables and fruits should be primary and that meat is probably way overconsumed in the US and in the West in general.

If someone wants to eat Vegan then go for it. Far too often it seems that the motives for being Vegan appeal to new age spiritualism that equate to animal life as equal to humans.

Tongue firmly in cheek, my personal motto has always included sayings along the lines of:

If it oinks or moos, it Bar-B-Q's.

Salad is not food. Salad is what food eats.

The top of the food chain is no place for carrots.

Joking aside, dietary restrictions, more often than not, seem to have some philosophy or spiritual value attached to them than necessarily a utilitarian bent. I know that is a pretty broad statement and exceptions abound.

Vegans require suppliments to provide nutrients that are not available from plants. That should be a clue right there in my opinion. My general observation as well is that Vegans are overall not particularly healthy and those few I have known (including my parents who adopted it with the Hallelujah Diet) is that in reality they often cheat. I think that cheating is driven in part by the bodies cravings for what is missing in their diet.

I disagree Somewhat I am not a Vegan myself but I believe that people can get all thier Vitamins and Minerals from Veggies and Fruits. You know pork and Beans ... You are what you eat :Shrug:

I disagree Somewhat I am not a Vegan myself but I believe that people can get all thier Vitamins and Minerals from Veggies and Fruits. You know pork and Beans ... You are what you eat :Shrug: :wink

What plant does the Pork come from?

Rather than argue it, here's a source from a Vegan Site (so they're not biased against Veganism obviously) that demonstrates the fact that Vitamin B12 is not obtainable from a Vegan Diet and requires a supplement.

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/intro

If Veganism is what God or nature intended for Humans, why would this be?

Just 2 comments from the peanut gallery.

1.

It is also possible that vitamine b12 may have been existant in plants in the past, but that means very little.

2.

I think canuckster makes a good point about the garden. Animals don't have spirits. Death or life to them matters very little. God gave man dominion over the plants and animals. It is my presumption that plants and animals are here for man and quite possibly for that reason alone, with a normal death process.

What was introduced, (and this is something that both YEC and OEC can agree on) is that the knowledge of good and evil was introduced in the fall. This lead to death of the spirit in man.

It is important to remember that animals do not kill for sport, only for necessity. Rabbies and the such are diseases that probably did not exist before the fall or even purhaps before plague was introduced to the earth.

Therefore, I see no comparison to this and YEC. I believe in a young earth and I believe everything I just mentioned.

If there is a contradiction, please let me no.

tyler_demerhcant wrote:Just 2 comments from the peanut gallery.

1.

It is also possible that vitamine b12 may have been existant in plants in the past, but that means very little.

2.

I think canuckster makes a good point about the garden. Animals don't have spirits. Death or life to them matters very little. God gave man dominion over the plants and animals. It is my presumption that plants and animals are here for man and quite possibly for that reason alone, with a normal death process.

What was introduced, (and this is something that both YEC and OEC can agree on) is that the knowledge of good and evil was introduced in the fall. This lead to death of the spirit in man.

It is important to remember that animals do not kill for sport, only for necessity. Rabbies and the such are diseases that probably did not exist before the fall or even purhaps before plague was introduced to the earth.

Therefore, I see no comparison to this and YEC. I believe in a young earth and I believe everything I just mentioned.

If there is a contradiction, please let me no.

Tyler,

Good points.

We can't know if plant life had different characteristics pre-fall that the physical impact of the fall changed. Of course, if you assert that, then you are begging the question as to what benefit you derive from returning to that supposed original diet when the conditions in the plants and our physical bodies are no longer consistent with what existed in the original garden.

I suppose it is possible to hold to a young earth and reject the idea that physical death outside of humanity existed pre-fall.

You're the first person who espouses a young earth to ever assert that position that I've encountered.

I'll temper my statement then, although I do think that there is some common ground between YEC and Christian Veganism based on Gen 1:29. I'll have to work at it to see if I can explain or express that better.

Either I need to get out more or maybe you should come to the Old Earth Position.

Bart