How can you ever truly believe? How can you be Christian?

[andersonmi]

How can you ever truly believe? Unless you're extremely simpleminded you're going to question the concept of religion. You will come to the conclusion that it's never possible to be completely sure. This problem never used to apply to many people, they were just bred into the religion, they went to church ever sunday and from a young age most of the doubt has been driven out of their mind and most people aren't willing to give up a religion once they have devoted years of their life to it. There's also the argument which initially sparked off religion, that non-believers go to hell so people are scared into the religion and wouldn't dare question the origins of the religion.
There's now a new breed of people, causing a shadow of doubt to be cast over religion generally. People like me, i have been baptised, but i have only been to church a few times my whole life, this leaves me having to make my own mind up about religion, completely unbiased. Therefore i have become an agnostic, as the majority seem to be, unable to commit themselves towards one side of the argument, but i am more inclined towards the science side of argument seeming more logical therefore probable, but there is still the undeniable fact that everything had to come from somewhere. Something had to begin it all.
This leaves me with a dilemma, i can never truly believe, i would never be able to say i believed religion completely, i could say it, but i would know i didn't mean it, therefore making the whole concept of religion useless to me. As to be a Christian you have to truly belief with no trace of doubt, after all this is what gains you entrance to heaven apparently.
Therefore religion is pointless to me and i will never start going to church simply because of the threat of hell, that argument is ridiculous. You should be Christian because you believe in the Holy Trinity and in what jesus did, not because you are threatened into a religion with image of hell. It makes me angry when i look back at adults asking me whether i believed and i replied saying i wasn't sure, and then i was told i would then go to hell. What ignorant people, anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows thats not a reason for following a religion for the whole of your life.
Sorry for my ramble.
so i desperately ask for help, how can i truly believe in God with no trace of doubt?

From a fifteen year old boy desperately searching for answers

[FFC]

Therefore religion is pointless to me and i will never start going to church simply because of the threat of hell, that argument is ridiculous. You should be Christian because you believe in the Holy Trinity and in what jesus did, not because you are threatened into a religion with image of hell. It makes me angry when i look back at adults asking me whether i believed and i replied saying i wasn't sure, and then i was told i would then go to hell. What ignorant people, anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows thats not a reason for following a religion for the whole of your life.
Sorry for my ramble.
so i desperately ask for help, how can i truly believe in God with no trace of doubt?

From a fifteen year old boy desperately searching for answers

I agree, religion is pointless. Christianity is a relationship you enter into when you simply believe that God in the flesh through His son Jesus Christ came and died on the cross to do for us what we and religion could never do...that is cleanse us from all our unrighteousness and make us right in god's eyes once and for all. Faith doesn't mean you have to believe everything about about anything without a shadow of a doubt...all you have to believe is that Christ died on the cross to take away the sins of the world including yours. I'll even venture to say that even if you don't understand exactly what all that means God can still save you.

It is good to have questions, but why not put your faith in what Christ did for you first. You have all the time in the world to look into all the rest of it.

I also agree that using the hell message to scare people into a relationship with God is probably the main reason we have so many screwed up and insecure christians running around.

If you even have the slightest inkling that the gospel message is true than the only real option is to take a leap of faith. What do you really have to lose?

You have valid questions and a searching heart. I believe that a revelation can't be far behind for you.

God bless you!

[Canuckster1127]

How can you ever truly believe? Unless you're extremely simpleminded you're going to question the concept of religion. You will come to the conclusion that it's never possible to be completely sure. This problem never used to apply to many people, they were just bred into the religion, they went to church ever sunday and from a young age most of the doubt has been driven out of their mind and most people aren't willing to give up a religion once they have devoted years of their life to it. There's also the argument which initially sparked off religion, that non-believers go to hell so people are scared into the religion and wouldn't dare question the origins of the religion.
There's now a new breed of people, causing a shadow of doubt to be cast over religion generally. People like me, i have been baptised, but i have only been to church a few times my whole life, this leaves me having to make my own mind up about religion, completely unbiased. Therefore i have become an agnostic, as the majority seem to be, unable to commit themselves towards one side of the argument, but i am more inclined towards the science side of argument seeming more logical therefore probable, but there is still the undeniable fact that everything had to come from somewhere. Something had to begin it all.
This leaves me with a dilemma, i can never truly believe, i would never be able to say i believed religion completely, i could say it, but i would know i didn't mean it, therefore making the whole concept of religion useless to me. As to be a Christian you have to truly belief with no trace of doubt, after all this is what gains you entrance to heaven apparently.
Therefore religion is pointless to me and i will never start going to church simply because of the threat of hell, that argument is ridiculous. You should be Christian because you believe in the Holy Trinity and in what jesus did, not because you are threatened into a religion with image of hell. It makes me angry when i look back at adults asking me whether i believed and i replied saying i wasn't sure, and then i was told i would then go to hell. What ignorant people, anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows thats not a reason for following a religion for the whole of your life.
Sorry for my ramble.
so i desperately ask for help, how can i truly believe in God with no trace of doubt?

From a fifteen year old boy desperately searching for answers

Welcome my friend.

You raise some very good questions and I'm impressed to be seeing these questions from a 15 year old.

The short answers to your questions that I can offer are:

1. Intellectual Doubt is common and frankly all Christians have times and seasons in their lives when they question whether their faith and belief are true. Those who say they never do, are not being honest in my opinion.

2. There are different levels of knowledge. What you seem to be describing is what is known as emperical knowledge, or that knowledge that can only be known or derived from observation or experience through the 5 senses. It is true, that on this basis alone, you cannot prove to the satisfaction of a skeptic, or yourself the existence of God and the truth of any religious system of thought, including Christianity. There are additional means of knowing things however that are learned by inference, reason and then that which is accepted on faith.

All systems of learning and knowledge have leaps of faith within them to varying degrees. Even Atheism and Agnosticism require frameworks to be constructed to give meaning to the world and those constructs require assumptions to be made a priori, as a starting place to begin the process of finding meaning.

This entire area is known in the field of philosophy as epistomology and it is a very deep field that I cannot do more justice for than that right now.

3. Fear is a very inadequate sustaining basis for faith in Christianity or any other system of thought. I agree with you there. I actually began my Christian walk in just that way with an overwhelming sense of fear of the judgment of God. If you care much for history, a great figure in Christianity who wrestled with this too was Martin Luther, the great reformer of Germany. This was portrayed very well in a recent movie of his life that you may enjoy watching. Fear is a legitimate basis for faith in my opinion if what you fear is real. I believe the fear I had was legitimate and led for me to saving faith, but it is a miserable place to live long term and I happen to believe that God does not want us to live there long term.

4. You seem to couch your arguments in the sense that agnosticism is the only rational position to take in view of all the information we have today as opposed to the past. However, you'll find if you stufy history and philosophy that these same issues were present then as are present now. I don't believe the issues are new.

I want to suggest a book that I think you will find very, very helpful and will address many of the issues that you are raising. It is called "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. You probably are familiar with the name, especially if you recently say or heard of the Movie release of "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" which is part of a children's literatre classic known as the Narnia Chronicles.

CS Lewis was an agnostic too and a very highly educated and intelligent man. He was a professor at Cambridge University in England in English Literature. He was profoundly influenced by his friendship with JRR Tolkien (author of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit) who was a fellow professor and a devout Roman Catholic. In large part due to the patience and willingness of his friend Tolkien to listen to him and help him work through many issues, Lewis came to the conclusion that Christianity was rational and reasonable and he became a Christian.

Mere Christianity chronicles some of that journey and his thinking and it is a very readible and intelligent book. Based on what you are asking here, I think you'd enjoy it and be challenged by what he has to say.

By all means I hope you'll stay a while and discuss your thinking more. You are wrestling with issues that are as old as the human race and important ones at that. I think there are good answers to your questions.

Welcome again.

Bart

[Jbuza]

From a fifteen year old boy desperately searching for answers

This is how you know that christianity is true, and that a creator God exists. If science had the answers, why would you be desperatley seeking them? There is a part of your being that is beyond the scope of science, and it yearns for communion with God. You are fearsome and wonderfully made in the image of God, and you just want that to be real in your life. In spite of what the world has told you, and your experinces that have made you agnostic, you can be very sure about God within your own mind by your insatiable desire to know God.

Also your own thoughts and actions, as well as the actions of others, should demonstrate to you that man needs to be reconciled to God and be born into a new spirit. Man is depraved, our own consciences tell us this. There isn't any reason why you shouldn't by completely convinced by your own desire to know the answers to these questions.

[andersonmi]

i understand what is being said but i fail to see how someone could devote the whole of their lifes to a cause when they have a reasonable amount of doubt. The only way i can see this is the threat of hell, which as i stated before is ridiculous. I am more willing to go towards the theory that god was created man because we needed meaning to our lives and give it purpose plainly because i believe that it is more probable because of my own experiences and the feeling of emptiness knowing there is no afterlife and this life is everything, this is often why i feel jealous of christians and complete believers because their life has a clear direction and purpose, even if they are wrong, ignorance is bliss, definetly in this case. Im not sure about god, not because of science, not because i haven't seen, felt or touched him, Im pretty sure he's not there because of my own individual experiences i described earlier. I still fail to see how someone can devote their life to a religion when they are only willing to admit the possibility of a God with a huge amount of doubt in their minds. I am inclined to carry on, having to accept that clearly life has no ultimate meaning, no special design, we're just here, to be here.

[Canuckster1127]

i understand what is being said but i fail to see how someone could devote the whole of their lifes to a cause when they have a reasonable amount of doubt. The only way i can see this is the threat of hell, which as i stated before is ridiculous. I am more willing to go towards the theory that god was created man because we needed meaning to our lives and give it purpose plainly because i believe that it is more probable because of my own experiences and the feeling of emptiness knowing there is no afterlife and this life is everything, this is often why i feel jealous of christians and complete believers because their life has a clear direction and purpose, even if they are wrong, ignorance is bliss, definetly in this case. Im not sure about god, not because of science, not because i haven't seen, felt or touched him, Im pretty sure he's not there because of my own individual experiences i described earlier. I still fail to see how someone can devote their life to a religion when they are only willing to admit the possibility of a God with a huge amount of doubt in their minds. I am inclined to carry on, having to accept that clearly life has no ultimate meaning, no special design, we're just here, to be here.

How Sad,

What I've found is that God is real and I base than in part on my thinking and reason. More than that, I've found, as the philosopher Pascal observed, that I like every man have a God-Shaped vacuum in my life.

I've tried in various ways and at various times to fill that vacuum with different things and nothing has worked to fill it like seeking after God and finding Him through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I don't base that on ignorance by any means. I have a degree in Biblical Literature and I am very familiar with all the arguments for and against God and Christianity. I'm aware of textual difficulties in the Bible and I can't answer everyone to even my own satisfaction at times, let alone to others. I read widely in philosophy, history and apologetics. I've done studies in comparative religions and considered what other systems have to offer.

I don't wear this on my sleeve, but lest you think that I am a dummy, I will state that I have an IQ near genius level and have played chess on the US National Correspondence Team. How smart you are has nothing to do with how much you need or don't need God. I don't have to, nor do I turn my mind off in approaching God. I just realize that no matter how smart I am, or think I am, that I don't know it all and still have much to learn and there is much that I will never know.

It is a myth and a copout to claim that religion springs from ignorance and self-delusion. I've found from my perspective that those who make that claim are trying to convince themselves of that more than they are other people because they are afraid of what accepting the existence of God through Jesus Christ will mean and do to their lives.

That is no better a fear to be subject to than the fear you mention that offends you with regard to people coming to God.

The difference I always return to is that Christianity is in essence not a religion. It is a relationship. I find purpose, meaning and peace in Jesus Christ. I find that more than sufficient to overcome my doubts when they come.

Living outside of that condition is for me, truly one of the most miserable existences I can imagine.

Understanding is a good thing and I advocate seeking to understand all that you can. Minute understanding of every element of something is not needed however to benefit from it.

Most people have no idea and no ability to describe to you the processes at work in a modern car with all of the sophisticated systems providing climate control, fuel consumption management, electronics etc.

Nevertheless, we get in the car and drive because we believe those systems can be relied upon.

I happen to be one who like to get under the hood of Christianity and see what makes it tick and I find joy and pleasure in doing that. It's something however that I've come to, well after I made the decision to accept that it works. It worked for me long before I added all this additional knowledge.

God gave you the ability and the will to make your own choices in this area, and I respect that. You have no idea the difference that the decisions you make in this regard at this age will have on the rest of your life. Nevertheless, God is real and God is patient. When you are ready, He will be there and you can make the decision to trust Him and come to know Him.

Why not check out Mere Christianity and give it some more thought? What do you have to lose? Doesn't something this important deserve some thought and exploration beyond your own thoughts which are based on your own limited experiences to this point in your life?

I pray God will show you what you need to see.

Blessings,

Bart

[FFC]

I know where you're coming from, andersonmi, but don't give up searching or hoping. If like we say there is a God who loves us and wants us to come to Him then He will reveal himself to you despite your doubts and pessimistic view. Then it will be up to you to believe or not. That probably doesn't help right now, but it seems to be the way He works much of the time.

[sandy_mcd]

i have only been to church a few times my whole life, this leaves me having to make my own mind up about religion, completely unbiased.

Asking questions is a good approach. There is a subtle difference between "unbiased" and "unfamiliar with". If you have only been to church a few times, you are no doubt as you say unbiased or not in it merely because your family is, but you also may not know enough to make a good decision. If your car isn't running well, a mechanic may very well be biased and suggest more repairs than necessary, but going to an unbiased programmer is not likely to do you much good.

the science side of argument seeming more logical therefore probable

There are many Christians who do not see a conflict between faith and science. So referring to the "science side" is not the best way of describing your uncertainty. The title of this forum is afterall "God and Science" not "God or Science".

Intellectual Doubt is common and frankly all Christians have times and seasons in their lives when they question whether their faith and belief are true.

Bart's comment is very good. I think those who sometimes struggle with doubt end up being the stronger for it. It's certainly happened to the best of us.

[Jbuza]

From a fifteen year old boy desperately searching for answers

I would think your position would be very stressful. It appears that you are trying very hard to find the answer to life the universe and everything that would explain how things would be IF they were how you would have made them.

Your own seeking and mind attest to the fact that the answers are as you know them to be, but you don't want it all to be true, so you are desperate and empty because instead of embracing and living life how it is, you are enduring an empty existence that is meaningless and vain.

As you say you are an agnostic, so the anly question that remains is will you do something about what you know truth to be, or will you endure this life and spend the next in seperation from your creator.

Whether streets of gold and lakes of fire are figurative language or concrete matters very little, as a real life, and whole existence must include a relationship with the creator God who created us so that we could followship together in each others company.