Evidence for God from Science

Hi, Birdie. I feel for you. I was once in your situation. I wanted to believe so badly, but I just wasn't able to. The thing that helped me believe was when I decided that I was either going to believe or not believe in God (or a god). One night, I prayed to the God that I hoped was there and ask for any kind of sign to show me His existence. I won't go through my entire testimony of my faith, but the message is if you truly want to believe, and you open your heart and mind to God, you will find Him. People are not made to be Christian, we become Christian. No one is made to be atheist, agnostic, muslim, etc. because this would violate free will. I'll quit rambling on. The point of this post is to just tell you that if you keep searching for Him, you will find God. It may not happen today, tomorrow, or even for a week, but you will find Him.

Birdie wrote: Well I'm an atheist I think I don't know what the exact qualifications for one is, but I'm in a Christian family, been in Christian schools, and know quite a bit about the Bible at least for the average Christian or above I think. But I don't believe there is a God or Heaven or Hell and I been trying too. And I browsed though the site and it seems to do a decent job of the idea of a God making it more possible but the idea of Christianity to me stills seems very unlikely even if it would be possible. And I know there can't or shouldn't be exact proof to prove this because that would ruin the idea of faith, but why can't I just believe this? Are some people just not made to be Christians? Btw I'm new here so also saying hi. Hi.

I used to be agnostic - but I just kept doing the research and looking at where it was leading. I am still on my journey and I still have my doubts - but the gospel of Christ is such a wonderful thing - almost too good to be true - but it is my hope that it is. My advice to you is to keep on researching - look at the evidence - read books like:

Case for the Creator - Lee Strobel
Case For Christ - Lee strobel
Case for Faith - Lee Strobel.
Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis.

For starters....

I pray that your journey will find the truth at the end. And that truth I believe is Jesus. But never give up, don't leave it till later.

God Bless
Silvertusk

Well I'm an atheist I think I don't know what the exact qualifications for one is, but I'm in a Christian family, been in Christian schools, and know quite a bit about the Bible at least for the average Christian or above I think. But I don't believe there is a God or Heaven or Hell and I been trying too. And I browsed though the site and it seems to do a decent job of the idea of a God making it more possible but the idea of Christianity to me stills seems very unlikely even if it would be possible. And I know there can't or shouldn't be exact proof to prove this because that would ruin the idea of faith, but why can't I just believe this? Are some people just not made to be Christians? Btw I'm new here so also saying hi. Hi.

Hi Birdie. Welcome aboard. No matter what you call yourself God definately wants you to be saved. There are loads of great threads on this board that God can use to help you make your decision to put your faith in Him. And as silvertusk suggested Lee strobel (former agnostic) has some great books where he researched into some of the major areas that cause Christians and non to question.

Just remember that as nice as it is to have your intellectual ducks in a row, and to have God give you a clear sign in some way or another, it still comes down to putting your faith in what God has done for you by sending His son to die on the cross for your sins. I don't know why it is so hard for some people to believe but it is. But don't give up, the fact that you are here, to me, seems to indicate that God is working in your spirit and calling you to him.

I will pray for you that God opens your eyes if that is ok.

Hey, everyone! How's everyone doing?

I got a couple of questions for Birdie:

• 1. Were you ever forced, in any way, to believe in God?
  2. What gives you true (non-spoiling) happiness, or where do you find it the most?

In God We Trust wrote:Hey, everyone! How's everyone doing?

I got a couple of questions for Birdie:

• 1. Were you ever forced, in any way, to believe in God?
  2. What gives you true (non-spoiling) happiness, or where do you find it the most?

1. Not sure what you mean by forced but some of the Christians schools I been in have been extremely strict. Like Harry Potter evil, most TV shows are evil, and that even other Christianity beside their own are going to hell.
2. Birds. (Get it? Birdie screen name and picture of a hoatzin as avatar?)

One night, I prayed to the God that I hoped was there and ask for any kind of sign to show me His existence. I won't go through my entire testimony of my faith, but the message is if you truly want to believe, and you open your heart and mind to God, you will find Him.

Just remember that as nice as it is to have your intellectual ducks in a row, and to have God give you a clear sign in some way or another, it still comes down to putting your faith in what God has done for you by sending His son to die on the cross for your sins.

Ugh a sign wouldn't work for me if it were just barely there. To me at least just because something would happen wouldn't mean it's a sign from God. And since Christianity is based on faith their isn't going to be any big sign either. If you do get signs what kind of signs were they like?
Oh by the way Christians don't have to believe only in Creationism, can they try and fit evolution in there too?

Birdie wrote:

In God We Trust wrote:Hey, everyone! How's everyone doing?

I got a couple of questions for Birdie:

• 1. Were you ever forced, in any way, to believe in God?
  2. What gives you true (non-spoiling) happiness, or where do you find it the most?

1. Not sure what you mean by forced but some of the Christians schools I been in have been extremely strict. Like Harry Potter evil, most TV shows are evil, and that even other Christianity beside their own are going to hell.
2. Birds. (Get it? Birdie screen name and picture of a hoatzin as avatar?)

One night, I prayed to the God that I hoped was there and ask for any kind of sign to show me His existence. I won't go through my entire testimony of my faith, but the message is if you truly want to believe, and you open your heart and mind to God, you will find Him.

Just remember that as nice as it is to have your intellectual ducks in a row, and to have God give you a clear sign in some way or another, it still comes down to putting your faith in what God has done for you by sending His son to die on the cross for your sins.

Ugh a sign wouldn't work for me if it were just barely there. To me at least just because something would happen wouldn't mean it's a sign from God. And since Christianity is based on faith their isn't going to be any big sign either. If you do get signs what kind of signs were they like?
Oh by the way Christians don't have to believe only in Creationism, can they try and fit evolution in there too?

There are many Christians who believe God created by means of evolution. It is not a cardinal doctrine, meaning that what you believe in this area is not important to someone's salvation.

I'm not anti-evolution. I just think it is not proven to my satisfaction on the grand scale of things in terms of what is commonly known as macro-evolution.

Birdie wrote: Well I'm an atheist I think I don't know what the exact qualifications for one is, but I'm in a Christian family, been in Christian schools, and know quite a bit about the Bible at least for the average Christian or above I think. But I don't believe there is a God or Heaven or Hell and I been trying too. And I browsed though the site and it seems to do a decent job of the idea of a God making it more possible but the idea of Christianity to me stills seems very unlikely even if it would be possible. And I know there can't or shouldn't be exact proof to prove this because that would ruin the idea of faith, but why can't I just believe this? Are some people just not made to be Christians? Btw I'm new here so also saying hi. Hi.

Welcome aboard,

I used to be an Atheist many years ago. The reason why I was of that persuasion was due to several reasons. One was my perspective of religious hypocrisy. I viewed Christians as dimwitted unenlightened tyrants who believed in a cruel, unjust, and mean god who delighted in making whatever was fun, joyful, and happy into calamity and woe to teach archaic lessons of humble bleated self-effacing misery.

I fought Christians in arguments by use of ideas and logic. I was very good at bashing Christians and any religion and winning each debate. I could walk circles around people of faith. No one could convince me that God existed. I adhered to the notion of natural law — or nature's god which was the rule of physics, order, random probabilities set in motion by an accidental cosmic explosion of gases.

Then one day, while arguing with my Christian aunt and uncle I was stumped by one question they asked about seeds. They asked me, “where did the first seed came from for the first plant?”

Of course I gave them the chicken and egg argument as well as the basic evolutionary processes answers. My relatives kept answering each of my triads — with a polite question, “Yes but, that still does not tell me where the first seed came from… Its DNA, its structure, its growth…where did the gas come from that exploded and made it all.. where? where?”

I could never answer that question and where it led too. Each time I tried, I discovered folly within every answer I gave. At the time, I was too proud to admit error but that question dogged me for years.

Several years later I became a Christian and now debate Atheist, but I'll spare you that

For now, please do not judge true Christianity on the merits of the behavior of some who have zeal but no knowledge, or intelligence. Likewise, do not reject it on grounds of logic and science. We do have a beginning, a purpose for being here, and an end.

If not, why are we here? What purpose for life, morality, good, and evil could there be? Inside us all is a knowing, or sense, that there is something out there that is bigger than humanity, who made it all with a design, a plan, and a purpose.

Problem is can we accept it? Can you? You are maybe struggling with just this acceptance now. Seeing others actions and misguided zeal has turned you off. Learning form school and lessons from life have may have confused you and created doubts about God. But, something is drawing you — seeking, yet you may not know what it is.

Let me close with this: You do have a purpose here far greater than procreation and survival of the species. Christianity is the journey and discovery of that purpose that became lost to us from the passage of eons of time. Do you want that purpose restored? Revealed? Only one God can grant you that. Only one savior can save us from ourselves and give meaning back to our lives. Only one Spirit can restore life back into you soul.

All I ask — is for you to pray this simple prayer…

“Dear God, Lord Most High! I am dumb as a post and know nothing. I am tired of living my life and making things all ugly around me. I ask you to forgive me and make me whole. Teach me, instruct me, guide me and never let me go. Dear Lord Jesus Christ, I am not even sure you are here so please I need your Spirit of life blown inside me; please do this for me. I do not understand what this all means. I do not understand why those nails tore your wrist causing your bones to pull apart for me. What reason was this for? I do not understand, but please teach me. Dear Jesus, teach me the way I should go. Help me to know more about you. Make me born again from above by the breath of Your Spirit and understand thee completely. Amen.”
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Birdie wrote:

In God We Trust wrote:Hey, everyone! How's everyone doing?

I got a couple of questions for Birdie:

• 1. Were you ever forced, in any way, to believe in God?
  2. What gives you true (non-spoiling) happiness, or where do you find it the most?

1. Not sure what you mean by forced but some of the Christians schools I been in have been extremely strict. Like Harry Potter evil, most TV shows are evil, and that even other Christianity beside their own are going to hell.
2. Birds. (Get it? Birdie screen name and picture of a hoatzin as avatar?)

One night, I prayed to the God that I hoped was there and ask for any kind of sign to show me His existence. I won't go through my entire testimony of my faith, but the message is if you truly want to believe, and you open your heart and mind to God, you will find Him.

Just remember that as nice as it is to have your intellectual ducks in a row, and to have God give you a clear sign in some way or another, it still comes down to putting your faith in what God has done for you by sending His son to die on the cross for your sins.

Ugh a sign wouldn't work for me if it were just barely there. To me at least just because something would happen wouldn't mean it's a sign from God. And since Christianity is based on faith their isn't going to be any big sign either. If you do get signs what kind of signs were they like?
Oh by the way Christians don't have to believe only in Creationism, can they try and fit evolution in there too?

Hi Birdie.

Something I read in Cafe Theology - Another good book i recommend - was Christian Fundamentalism was a heresy. I liked that. Christians who are too strict like that obviously have ignored the bit about love thy neighbour and about the act of forgiveness. And they also do not understand their own docterine which they proclaim to be lords of. I knew a Christian who said that even if I started to believe in Jesus now I would still be going to hell. Where on earth did they make this up?

Don't be swayed by strict fundamentalists / legalists as they are like the Pharasies in Jesus day. Find good theology and stick to that and remember that God loves all and teaches us the same. Anything done in the name of Christianity without the message of Jesus and love at is core is a heresy and should be avoided.

Also - a note - all Christians are Creationists. We all believe that God created the Universe. But unfortunately the word Creationist has been linked to the Young Earth Creationist viewpoint. This is not one that is shared by all Christians. Make you own opinion on that but remember that at the core is Jesus and Love.

God Bless you on your Journey.

Silvertusk

P.S I love Harry Potter and am very much looking forward to the last book.

Birdie wrote:

In God We Trust wrote:Hey, everyone! How's everyone doing?

I got a couple of questions for Birdie:

• 1. Were you ever forced, in any way, to believe in God?
  2. What gives you true (non-spoiling) happiness, or where do you find it the most?

1. Not sure what you mean by forced but some of the Christians schools I been in have been extremely strict. Like Harry Potter evil, most TV shows are evil, and that even other Christianity beside their own are going to hell.
2. Birds. (Get it? Birdie screen name and picture of a hoatzin as avatar?)

One night, I prayed to the God that I hoped was there and ask for any kind of sign to show me His existence. I won't go through my entire testimony of my faith, but the message is if you truly want to believe, and you open your heart and mind to God, you will find Him.

Just remember that as nice as it is to have your intellectual ducks in a row, and to have God give you a clear sign in some way or another, it still comes down to putting your faith in what God has done for you by sending His son to die on the cross for your sins.

Ugh a sign wouldn't work for me if it were just barely there. To me at least just because something would happen wouldn't mean it's a sign from God. And since Christianity is based on faith their isn't going to be any big sign either. If you do get signs what kind of signs were they like?
Oh by the way Christians don't have to believe only in Creationism, can they try and fit evolution in there too?

You are absolutely right. It is only by faith in Christ alone for salvation plus nothing that saves you. Not you, not works, not church, not anything.

There are many Christians who believe God created by means of evolution. It is not a cardinal doctrine, meaning that what you believe in this area is not important to someone's salvation.

Yes, just like "earning" your way towards heaven you only would have to believe in Jesus is God, plus you could also say God created evolution anyway but it just seems so many Christians are trying to disprove it.

Christians who are too strict like that obviously have ignored the bit about love thy neighbour and about the act of forgiveness. And they also do not understand their own docterine which they proclaim to be lords of. I knew a Christian who said that even if I started to believe in Jesus now I would still be going to hell. Where on earth did they make this up?

Don't be swayed by strict fundamentalists / legalists as they are like the Pharasies in Jesus day. Find good theology and stick to that and remember that God loves all and teaches us the same.

I defiantly did not listen to those people who said that everything was evil. I kind of adjusted my view on Christianity and based on what it says on the bible the only qualification is to ask Jesus to be your savior, not to go to church every Sunday or never read Harry Potter. And I usually am a nice person with logic enough at least to figure out what's right and wrong with or without the Bible.

Then one day, while arguing with my Christian aunt and uncle I was stumped by one question they asked about seeds. They asked me, “where did the first seed came from for the first plant?”

Ugh, I came down to that as well and I still find loopholes. Also that Lee Strobel has a site that has a bunch of mini video sermons here http://www.leestrobel.com/index.html. And still for each video I can make up an excuse, so far I come down to the conclusion if there is a God he probably just let everything in the universe work the kinks out itself. But that's just me, the videos are nice anyway. Main thing why I can't believe is just because one side of the argument can't prove something doesn't mean the other side is automatically right. By the way I think a good argument for Christianity is if it's not true why do so many people believe it or why would someone spend all that time writing the Bible if it's a fraud?

Birdie wrote:

There are many Christians who believe God created by means of evolution. It is not a cardinal doctrine, meaning that what you believe in this area is not important to someone's salvation.

Yes, just like "earning" your way towards heaven you only would have to believe in Jesus is God, plus you could also say God created evolution anyway but it just seems so many Christians are trying to disprove it.

Some are. Believe it or not, they are not the majority. They are a strong minority and they do make a lot of noise.

You're on a site where the position is old earth and I hope you see that most of us here try to be open minded and reasonable.

I try to define my own beliefs in this area by what I am for, rather than by what I am against. It's a fine line. I can get quite passionate when involved with a Young Earth Creationist in a debate where I see sloppy thinking.

At the end of the day however, there is much I do not know. There are things I think I know that are likely wrong or need to be modified and that requires of me patience and humility with others and with myself. I can and do fellowship with believers here and in my Church in spite of that and do just fine.

I too grew up watching and learning about nature and birds.
One of my favorite thing to do as a kid was to feed the Chick-a-Dees sunflower seed out of my hand.
It remarkable to have one of God's wild creatures land and feed right on your hand.

To each one of us its somewhat different what makes us believe more than doubt. Just because you have doubts doesn't mean your not a Christian.

How did Birds learn about going south in the winter without a map?
How would evolution explain that?
I believe there are sign of God's design in nature. Maybe guided evolution but design none the less.
Take this little Hummingbird how does such a little thing survive such a long trip?
What about the beauty of such birds as a peacock, parrots, macaws.
The wonderful songs they sing?
I have to believe God designed birds to brighten Man's day and sense of wonder.

Michael
Thomas

Canuckster1127 wrote:
Some are. Believe it or not, they are not the majority. They are a strong minority and they do make a lot of noise.

Ok so do the people who do believe that, believe that evolution has never happened to ether man or animal or just never to man? And also one more question is there any more like Bible stories of Jesus when he was a kid besides that one time he was talking with the priest?

Birdie wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:
Some are. Believe it or not, they are not the majority. They are a strong minority and they do make a lot of noise.

Ok so do the people who do believe that, believe that evolution has never happened to ether man or animal or just never to man? And also one more question is there any more like Bible stories of Jesus when he was a kid besides that one time he was talking with the priest?

There's a lot of variety in the beliefs. Most Young Earth Creationists do believe that evolution as a theory applies in things like the development of different types of dog breeds.

Where most young earth creationists AND old earth creationists draw the line is in the area of Macroevolution, where differentiation and change from one separate type or species.

Ironically enough, the most aggressive holding of evolution is actually held by some Young Earth propenents who believe that carnivores developed from herbivores since the fall and that agressive development took place following the world-wide flood. Evolution is trotted out in those cases as a possibility for how so many different species could come from a relatively small source group.

So creationist do not believe that evolution is not real. Just that it is not as broad and not a plausible explanation for the beginning and diversification of life as as asserted by many.

I'm an Old Earth Creationist so if a Young Earth Creationist wants to jump and an clarify, feel free. I've tried to be fair and accurate in my comments.

As for Jesus' Childhood, no, there is no more in the Gospels that what you have when he was 12 and then the narrative leaps ahead to where he was 30.

There are some pseudopigraphal acounts of when Jesus was an infant but it is frankly some pretty silly stuff where Jesus is shown using his power to harm other children and to perform miracles such as turning clay figures into birds etc. It is called the infancy Gospel of Thomas.

Hope this helps.

Bart