Evidence for God from Science

Well, several months ago, I became what I thought was a Christian. However, what I was actually placing my faith in was the idea of God and not God Himself. I did read the Bible every now and then though, but I didn't realize how crucial it was to read it consistently.

Anyway, a few months ago, I got into some discussions with evolutionists. Long story short, I lost faith completely.

Looking back on it, I know it's quite obvious I never really knew the real God. However... 2 Timothy 2:11-13 says “Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.”

"If we disown him, he will also disown us." So, with that said, if anything I was disowned by God. So my question is can I be "re-owned" and "regain" salvation (although I never truly had it to begin with)?

Vash,
John 3:16 says "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life".

Do you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross to take the punishment that you deserve upon himself. Well if you truly believe that with your heart that Jesus died on the cross to take away your sins then you are saved and you have eternal life.

It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do, it is God who saves and keeps you.

It all comes down to faith. For me I had to decide whether I though God was a liar, or I was willing to take him at His word. I'm not saying you'll never have doubts about some things but believing God's promises regarding salvation is a crucial.

John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

Romans 3:22-24
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Through faith in Jesus Christ (not just faith in God) you are freely justified by God's grace. You are deemed righteous and your sins are not held against you because of Jesus' redemption. It's that simple. All who believe receive the gift.

Regarding the passage in Timothy, to disown Jesus is to never have believed. Should doubts arise (we become faithless), we are expressly told that Jesus remains faithful.

to disown Jesus is to never have believed.

May I ask what passage says this? I thought it was to place your faith in Him, and then lose that faith. Maybe I'm wrong. [/quote]

What did the evolutionists tell you for you to change your mind about God? You know, most christians believe in evolution, and many on this board know more about evolution than the evolutionists themselves.

"what I was actually placing my faith in was the idea of God and not God Himself"

Well, that is the evoltionist speaking right there, all the facts are put forth right before their eyes, they will tell you its your perception, your idea of a God. The bible is just an idea, God is just an idea, its all an idea to them. The fact is, they have'nt experienced God, they run from it, the problem is they believe they are the gods themselves. I believe that God, created humans as unique, gave us the minds to study the world and explore the universe. We owe God a great deal, God's given us not only life on earth in the physical world but also a chance for us to be with him when we pass away. The fact is, we don't live forever here, approx 80 years, and your done for, and evolutionists pretend they are gods? The question is, are you with, or are you against.

Vash wrote:May I ask what passage says this? I thought it was to place your faith in Him, and then lose that faith. Maybe I'm wrong.

I was just referring to the 2 Timothy passage you posted. Doesn't it stand to reason that 'losing your faith' which I would also call just doubting is 'being faithless'? When we are faithless, he remains faithful. When we doubt he is still there. Unless you have some other concept for what 'being faithless' means besides losing faith I think it makes perfect sense.

Godslanguage is right. To an non-believer God is just an idea, but to us He is our saviour and we have a personal relationship to Him. We know God and He knows us. There are reams of verses about how God reveals Himself to His followers, while the world at large revels in their foolish knowledge which they mistake for wisdom.

Lee Strobel deals with this in his book "Case for Faith"
The topic of how can I be a Christian if I have doubts.
If we all are honest, we all have doubts.
Having doubts doesn't mean you lost faith.

Michael
doubting Thomas

Vash,

It seems to me, that if you are concerned enough to take time to post this question, then you have not lost faith completely. You are still searching. Don't stop. I have had those exact thoughts before as well. My personal opinion is that it is just God telling you that "You need to know Me better, start reading scripture."

My desire to learn increased when I found a teacher that instilled a desire for me to learn. He would challenge me, but also he would ask me to challenge him. In other words, he wanted me to search the scriptures to find out if what he taught was true. When I started doing this my faith starting growing. I still have much to learn, but I am enjoying it immensely.

Also, I don't know if this makes a big difference, it depends on how you interpret the meaning: But the KJV translates that word "Disown" differently. It uses the word "deny" there. I think its the NIV that uses "Disown", but the NIV even translates this word from Greek, in other places to deny. Why they chose to use the word disown here, I am not sure..... Just some things to consider.....

God bless

Felgar wrote:

Vash wrote:May I ask what passage says this? I thought it was to place your faith in Him, and then lose that faith. Maybe I'm wrong.

I was just referring to the 2 Timothy passage you posted. Doesn't it stand to reason that 'losing your faith' which I would also call just doubting is 'being faithless'? When we are faithless, he remains faithful. When we doubt he is still there. Unless you have some other concept for what 'being faithless' means besides losing faith I think it makes perfect sense.

Godslanguage is right. To an non-believer God is just an idea, but to us He is our saviour and we have a personal relationship to Him. We know God and He knows us. There are reams of verses about how God reveals Himself to His followers, while the world at large revels in their foolish knowledge which they mistake for wisdom.

Well the Biblical definition of faith is "being certain of what you cannot see." I'm far from certain at this point. It's more like "I can see how that would work, but I'm not sure" type of thing.

What I'm getting at with the passage is this: If we deny God and he denies us as a result, does that mean that if we go from being faithful to faithless, that He won't ever let us regain faith? Wouldn't that be contradictive to denying us? Or do I have a misinterpretation?

If we deny God and he denies us as a result, does that mean that if we go from being faithful to faithless, that He won't ever let us regain faith?

Can we stray from the faith and then be reborn again ? or rereborn?

I certainly hope so, otherwise I am doomed.

I strayed from faith and from living a good life for sometime before meeting my wife. I fell into a bad crowd of people.

I guess I was one of the lost sheep Jesus talked about. Does not all of heaven rejoice when even one of the lost sheep is found?

Michael
Thomas

Vash wrote:

Felgar wrote:

Vash wrote:May I ask what passage says this? I thought it was to place your faith in Him, and then lose that faith. Maybe I'm wrong.

I was just referring to the 2 Timothy passage you posted. Doesn't it stand to reason that 'losing your faith' which I would also call just doubting is 'being faithless'? When we are faithless, he remains faithful. When we doubt he is still there. Unless you have some other concept for what 'being faithless' means besides losing faith I think it makes perfect sense.

Godslanguage is right. To an non-believer God is just an idea, but to us He is our saviour and we have a personal relationship to Him. We know God and He knows us. There are reams of verses about how God reveals Himself to His followers, while the world at large revels in their foolish knowledge which they mistake for wisdom.

Well the Biblical definition of faith is "being certain of what you cannot see." I'm far from certain at this point. It's more like "I can see how that would work, but I'm not sure" type of thing.

What I'm getting at with the passage is this: If we deny God and he denies us as a result, does that mean that if we go from being faithful to faithless, that He won't ever let us regain faith? Wouldn't that be contradictive to denying us? Or do I have a misinterpretation?

Vash, others are interacting with you well and I appreciate your honesty and openness on this board. I'm very glad you are here and you are very welcome to the board.

When the scriptures talks about grieving the holy spirit, it is not talking about seasonal doubts and concerns that all Christians go through.

I will confess to you and to others, that I have been a Christian now since April of 1975, or for over 31 years. I've been ordained as a minister in an evangelical denomination, served as a pastor, elder, etc (I'm saying this make a point, not to brag.)

I have had doubts and to varying degrees I still do, although as I get older and hopefully more mature in my faith, they are less frequent and less severe.

When the scripture talks about denying God it is not talking about these very normal, very human elements of our thinking and growth. There is a great deal of disagreement between committed christians on both sides of the question, but one thing I think can be said with a pretty clear consensus is that IF (and for many that is a big if) there can be a loss of salvation, what these types of passages are talking about is a turning or "repenting" of a prior commitment to Christ that is 180 degrees, radical, final and with no possibility of return. This implies a withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from that person, such that their conscience is seared, and they cannot care or return to Christ.

Your obvious concern and care indicates to me that that has not happened in your case and so you should put your mind at ease.

God is the one who performs the act of regeneration in your life and it is based upon Christ's finished work on the cross that you are His child.

Nothing can pluck you from His hand.

I found when I was younger in the faith, it was very common for me to worry and be fearful of anything that would take this most precious gift from me. Thankfully, I know better now that human doubts, fears and concerns are common to all of us.

Romans 8:38-39

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the LOVE OF GOD that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Glad you are here and if I can offer anything, it would be .....

Relax. God is in control. Doubts are part of the human condition. The tenderness of your heart and mind in being concerned about this is strong evidence that God and His Holy Spirit are still at work in you. Trust that and move through those doubts as an opportunity to grow. You're not unusual in this regard at all.

Bart

Canuckster1127 wrote:what these types of passages are talking about is a turning or "repenting" of a prior commitment to Christ that is 180 degrees, radical, final and with no possibility of return. This implies a withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from that person, such that their conscience is seared, and they cannot care or return to Christ.

First of all, thank you (and everyone else) for all your help, but I have a question about this. There are times when I get too caught up in something I'm doing. Eventually, my heart gets pulled into it and I just have a prideful-like pleasure in whatever it is I'm doing.

However, a lot of times, when I wake up in the morning I feel miserable, and that "God-shaped vaccuum" is more apparent than it was when I was doing something else. Heck, just last night I fell asleep while watching TV and then when I woke up the first thought (and I mean that literally) that popped into my mind and heart was "I need God" and after that I went off looking for any type of evidence I could get that He exist. I also looked for things that disprove evolution.

Also, another thing that makes the vaccuum more apparent is when I'm around genuine Christians and I see that "glassiness" in their eyes. When I'm around them and see that, that's another time where I basically say to myself "I need God."

The question is: Does the fact that the desire usually arises at certain times mean that the Holy Spirit isn't work in me? Or is that normal for some people?

Also, I guess this is a prayer request too, that the bit of pride I have goes away. Thanks to all of you. I really appreciate it.

Vash,

If you don't mind yet another input . . . first things first, I'd in general affirm what's been mostly said. The fact that you seem concerned is evidence that you've not been rejected by God, as the HS is still prompting you (as a side note, for what it is worth, I don't believe anybody is unsavable, no matter how often they reject Christ . . . they can always place their trust in Him, but that's another story).

With that said, we have the primary question: are you now, or have you ever been, saved? The answer is very simple, as has already been pointed out: have you trusted Christ to save you? You've seen John 3:16. John 6:47 says, "He who believes has everlasting life." Note the present tense of that statement. In addition, John 20:31 says, "These things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and by believing you may have life in His name." If you have believed in Jesus, you are saved, now and forever. It's very simple. By your sin, you were separated from God. However, Jesus paid the price for you sin, and now offers you life. You simply take it as a free gift. How? By simply believing in Jesus for it. Note the above verses . . . if you have done that, you have everlasting life. There are no other conditions. The only condition is that you believe in Jesus' offer to save you by giving you everlasting (unending) life. Have you now, or have you ever, done that? If so, you are saved and eternally secure.

The next issue relates to the doubts you have had. We have them because we are human beings. Christians are not guaranteed to persevere in faith until the end (in my understanding of things). You don't lose your salvation for losing your faith, but you certainly reap severe consequences for it! Heb. 12 tells us that God scourged His sons, and, as noted, those who deny Christ are denied by Him. That point is argued further by Jesus Himself in Mark 8:34-38. Of particular interested is the noted passage in Timothy. What does it mean for Christ to "disown" us? Look closer at the verse: "If we endure, we also will reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us." (NASB) The issue is reigning, not salvation. Compare this with Matt 25:14-30. Those who do well are rewarded, but those who do not are punished, and what they have is taken away. The next verse in our passage confirms this: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." So, despite your faithlessness, God is still faithful . . . to what? To preserve you, because He promised He would save you if you simply believed.

The point to all this is that continued belief is a VERY serious issue. Once you put your faith in Christ, you are exhorted over and over again to hold strong your confession. Don't let it go. Keep going. God has provided a church, ministers, Christian friends, and His very word to help you in that process. As a Christian, you have the right to call on God for deliverance (Rom. 10:9). When we sin, if we confess, He will forgive us (1 John 1:9). If you do lose your confidence, expect discipline, both in this life and in the hereafter!

You have in your hands a once in an eternity opportunity to determine how you get to serve God forever. If you hold to your faith, you will receive great reward in Jesus' eternal kingdom. If you lose your faith, or if you are an unproductive servant, you will receive no reward. Not all will be equal in the Kingdom of God! My encouragement to you is to seek God, as you seem to be, and hold fast to the belief that Jesus Christ has saved you because you believed in Him. Then, do the work of a good soldier, and be productive for the kingdom of God, that He may receive glory, and that you may be rewarded for all of eternity.

God bless

Jac3510 wrote:Vash,

If you don't mind yet another input . . . first things first, I'd in general affirm what's been mostly said. The fact that you seem concerned is evidence that you've not been rejected by God, as the HS is still prompting you (as a side note, for what it is worth, I don't believe anybody is unsavable, no matter how often they reject Christ . . . they can always place their trust in Him, but that's another story).

With that said, we have the primary question: are you now, or have you ever been, saved? The answer is very simple, as has already been pointed out: have you trusted Christ to save you? You've seen John 3:16. John 6:47 says, "He who believes has everlasting life." Note the present tense of that statement. In addition, John 20:31 says, "These things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and by believing you may have life in His name." If you have believed in Jesus, you are saved, now and forever. It's very simple. By your sin, you were separated from God. However, Jesus paid the price for you sin, and now offers you life. You simply take it as a free gift. How? By simply believing in Jesus for it. Note the above verses . . . if you have done that, you have everlasting life. There are no other conditions. The only condition is that you believe in Jesus' offer to save you by giving you everlasting (unending) life. Have you now, or have you ever, done that? If so, you are saved and eternally secure.

The next issue relates to the doubts you have had. We have them because we are human beings. Christians are not guaranteed to persevere in faith until the end (in my understanding of things). You don't lose your salvation for losing your faith, but you certainly reap severe consequences for it! Heb. 12 tells us that God scourged His sons, and, as noted, those who deny Christ are denied by Him. That point is argued further by Jesus Himself in Mark 8:34-38. Of particular interested is the noted passage in Timothy. What does it mean for Christ to "disown" us? Look closer at the verse: "If we endure, we also will reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us." (NASB) The issue is reigning, not salvation. Compare this with Matt 25:14-30. Those who do well are rewarded, but those who do not are punished, and what they have is taken away. The next verse in our passage confirms this: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." So, despite your faithlessness, God is still faithful . . . to what? To preserve you, because He promised He would save you if you simply believed.

The point to all this is that continued belief is a VERY serious issue. Once you put your faith in Christ, you are exhorted over and over again to hold strong your confession. Don't let it go. Keep going. God has provided a church, ministers, Christian friends, and His very word to help you in that process. As a Christian, you have the right to call on God for deliverance (Rom. 10:9). When we sin, if we confess, He will forgive us (1 John 1:9). If you do lose your confidence, expect discipline, both in this life and in the hereafter!

You have in your hands a once in an eternity opportunity to determine how you get to serve God forever. If you hold to your faith, you will receive great reward in Jesus' eternal kingdom. If you lose your faith, or if you are an unproductive servant, you will receive no reward. Not all will be equal in the Kingdom of God! My encouragement to you is to seek God, as you seem to be, and hold fast to the belief that Jesus Christ has saved you because you believed in Him. Then, do the work of a good soldier, and be productive for the kingdom of God, that He may receive glory, and that you may be rewarded for all of eternity.

God bless

I did place my faith in Jesus. However, I didn't do it off of what I read in the Bible. A Christian told me the important part of Jesus Christ (that he came to Earth, died for our sins, and was ressurected). This was back when I was confident that there was a God. Am I still saved for placing my faith in Jesus only after someone told me about Him? I did read the Bible afterwards, but the point is I didn't before I said the Sinner's Prayer.

Saying the sinner's prayer doesn't save a person, although I do understand that most people will tell you that if you want to be saved, you have to "pray to receive Christ," or some other such phrase. Let me give you a real life example. I girl I used to know told me some time ago about the night she was saved. She told me how she realized she was a sinner and how she got on her knees and asked Jesus to forgive her, etc. I then said to her, "Let me ask you something: did you pray to receive Christ because you believed in Him, or did you believe in Him because you prayed to receive Him?" In other words, which came first, her belief or her prayer? Of course, she said she believed, and because she believed, she prayed. I then showed her John 3:16 again. "According to the Bible, are you saved by believing or by praying?" Belief, of course, is what the God says. So, I asked her: "So, were you saved the moment you believed or the moment you prayed?"

I do appreciate the sinner's prayer, but I don't lead people in it anymore. When I lead someone to Christ, I do pray with them, but I don't ask them to pray to receive Jesus. I ask them to pray to Jesus and thank Him for saving them. A biblical saving prayer is more like, "Jesus, thank you for saving me from my sins. Thank you for dying for me when you didn't have to. Thank you for letting me see the Good News!"

Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that a person was saved by praying to receive Christ? That's why I keep on stressing belief. We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-10), not grace through prayer, not grace through repentance, not grace through commitment, not grace through discipleship, not grace through baptism . . . grace through faith. So, the simple question for you is, what have you believed? Jesus offeres life if you simply believe in Him for it. That is the promise. Have you believed in Him for it? If you say you have, and yet you do not believe you have eternal life, then can you honestly say that you have believed it? The answer is no.

This is the gospel, short and simple: Jesus offers everlasting life if you believe in Him for it. Therefore, if you believe in Jesus, you have everlasting life.

Do you now, or have you ever, believed in Jesus for everlasting life? Forget everything else . . . forget about sins and baptism and even the Resurrection. Have you believed in Jesus' promise to give you life? If so, then by definition, what do you have?

Again, doubts are normal. The wonderful thing is that the Gospel is so objective. I can totally renounce my faith and come back in ten years and say, "I don't believe it anymore, but that old book says that if I trust Jesus, I'm saved. I used to trust Him, so if I'm wrong now and my old faith was true, then I'm still saved." That's the nature of assurance! Doubts are ok, but those can be overcome by study, prayer, etc. Right now, you simply have to decide if you have ever believed the Gospel. If so, you are saved, now and forever. If THAT is settled, then we can start working on the different issues that cause you to stumble. If, for example, it is evolution, the people on this board are really well equipped to help you get past that. That, my friend, is what we call discipleship. So, believe the Gospel, and know that you are saved!!! Work out the other stuff after that, but above all, know that you are heavenbound!

God bless