"If it harm none, do what you will"

[Farlsborough]

Howdy folks, I'm new around these parts, but was inspired to join after talking to a non-Christian friend last night and for once being stumped!

So, Hi!

Basically, he is a seeker - he believes in God and has recently rejected Islam. He came along to something my church ran a few months ago ("Take a Closer Look" - a very informal, lightweight talk and Q&A over some good food - was actually really good!) but due to some odd situations between a mutual friend, I've not been able to see much of him to see what he made of it all.

Last night we were celebrating the passing of our exams (woo!) and at some point, he gave "the pagan rule" (although he is no way a practicing pagan) - "if it harm none, do what you will." He is a liberal pacifist, and a thoroughly nice guy.

Now then - I know somewhere there is a reasoned response to this, but I just can't remember it for the life of me! I mean, most of the things God asks of us as Christians in terms of our behaviour prevent suffering...

I personally know what it is to be in a relationship with Jesus and know that I'm saved, but if we were to focus on inter-human relations, does this argument have a weak spot? Obviously, people don't stick to it - but then, people don't stick to the moral guidance of the Bible when they're supposed to be Christians!

We are both medics and I suppose at this stage of our lives are particularly concerned with the welfare of others and society etc - so, what do I tell him... why shouldn't we all follow a simple code of trying to do nothing to harm others?

Cheers in advance, guys and girls!

[Canuckster1127]

Howdy folks, I'm new around these parts, but was inspired to join after talking to a non-Christian friend last night and for once being stumped!

So, Hi!

Basically, he is a seeker - he believes in God and has recently rejected Islam. He came along to something my church ran a few months ago ("Take a Closer Look" - a very informal, lightweight talk and Q&A over some good food - was actually really good!) but due to some odd situations between a mutual friend, I've not been able to see much of him to see what he made of it all.

Last night we were celebrating the passing of our exams (woo!) and at some point, he gave "the pagan rule" (although he is no way a practicing pagan) - "if it harm none, do what you will." He is a liberal pacifist, and a thoroughly nice guy.

Now then - I know somewhere there is a reasoned response to this, but I just can't remember it for the life of me! I mean, most of the things God asks of us as Christians in terms of our behaviour prevent suffering...

I personally know what it is to be in a relationship with Jesus and know that I'm saved, but if we were to focus on inter-human relations, does this argument have a weak spot? Obviously, people don't stick to it - but then, people don't stick to the moral guidance of the Bible when they're supposed to be Christians!

We are both medics and I suppose at this stage of our lives are particularly concerned with the welfare of others and society etc - so, what do I tell him... why shouldn't we all follow a simple code of trying to do nothing to harm others?

Cheers in advance, guys and girls!

Welcome to the board.

What you have quoted is called "The Wiccan Reed." If extends beyond Wicca as a basic pagan code of morality, sometimes held up as a similar type of moral statement like the Golden Rule.

Here's a pretty good address of it in general that also addresses what Wicca is really all about.

Let me know if it helps or not.

http://www.gostudents.net/atf/cf/%7BED3 ... _Study.pdf

[bluesman]

"if it harm none, do what you will."

Without getting into scripture the one thing that comes to mind first is another saying

"Sometimes its cruel to be kind"

or sometimes we are actually doing harm and not realizing it. Sometimes what seems wrong in the short-term is what is right for the long-term.

Another would be what of the harm one may do to their self. In the long run that may harm others.

For example "if I smoke, but never around others who am I harming"
Only Myself? No. I harm people who love me when I die young.
I harm the medical/tax payer system that pays my health bills.

So glad I quit smoking!!

Another is this moral stance also doesn't included God. If we believe in even the possibility of his existence then shouldn't we take into consideration his desires and wishes for us?

Anyways, like the Golden Rule, "not harming others" is still a good rule.
However, like I stated before , there are exceptions.
Therefore, we need addition moral rules to live life by.
Jesus and the Bible can help us with this.

Michael
Thomas

[Fortigurn]

Last night we were celebrating the passing of our exams (woo!) and at some point, he gave "the pagan rule" (although he is no way a practicing pagan) - "if it harm none, do what you will."

That is not 'the pagan rule', that is a weak form of the 'Golden Rule' which has been adopted by modern neo-pagans (pseudo-pagans), looking to give their life a little more meaning by taking bits and pieces of pagan theology (the attractive parts), and combining them with post-modern pop-psychology.

Modern pagans have an ancient history which can be traced all the way back to the 1960s (or at best - but far more tenuously - the 19th century revivalist movements).

The self-centred nature of neo-paganism is well described in the 'pagan rule', which is deliberately aimed at maximising your opportunities to satisfy yourself.

It places absolutley no obligation on you to do good to others, unlike the Golden Rule of Christianity (and the Law of Moses), to which it is decidedly ethically inferior.

The following copied and pasted from a random pagan site, tells you all you need to know about the modern movement:

I can hear you already... "Rules?!? What you mean, "Rules"? I'm a Pagan! If I wanted rules I would have stayed a __________ (fill in the blank with whatever organized religion you may have left)

It's quite sad really. They just never grew up.

[Birdie]

The rule makes sense if you look at it the right way. Like maybe just by the looks of this rule 'stealing' is ok. You not physically hurting anyone. But you just hurt the person you stole from, making them lose money or whatever. And also some people have a wrapped idea of what's actually hurting people or make up excuses of why that was ok. There's a lot of loop holes in this, it reminds me of one of my teachers who whenever someone complained to her about something like being picked on she just say “Is their any blood? No? Then quite complaining.” Or if they're not physically hurting you they shouldn't get in trouble.