Some questions

[Insider]

Hey,

I was reading a passage from the bible about the universe expanding, and how it will end in a 'crunch'. This made me think if people back thousands of years ago lnew this then there's a huge reason to believe in God, even though it's a simple verse.

But then I thought what if the churches changed the bible a bit since it was originally written?

Any strong proof against this? If so that means that people from thousands of years ago would have had to of got this info from God.

[ray]

What verse are you talking about?

RAy

[Insider]

The universe is expanding Job 9:8, Psalms 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:16

The universe is winding down and will "wear out" Psalms 102:25-278

[Canuckster1127]

Job 9:8

8 He alone stretches out the heavens
and treads on the waves of the sea.

Job is probably the first book written in the Old testament. While I think you can say that this verse can be applicable in terms of an expanding universe, I rather suspect that the people originally perceiving it at the time it was written would not have had this understanding. It would make sense to them as people on the surface of the earth using the naked eye and looking to the sky. The stretching to them would be like the stretching of a hide or something like that to cover the expanse of the largest thing they could see.

Is it possible that God inspired His word in such a way as to make it seem applicable in this way so that we in the 21st century would see the application? It's possible, but it is a dangerous hermeneutic to use and its use has caused some spectacularly wrong interpretations in the past. This type of hermeneutic was used in opposing Galileo.

Psalms 104:2

Psalm 104:2 (NIV)

2 He wraps himself in light as with a garment;
he stretches out the heavens like a tent

The point here is the glory and immensity of God, not necessarily the universe.

Isaiah 40:22

Isaiah 40:22 (New International Version)

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Similar language. Stretching out would have more of a context of those looking at it from horizon to horizon, not to an understanding of an expanding universe beyond the observation and understanding of the original audience. Again, could God be hiding some truth here? Maybe. But not necessarily.

Isaiah 42:5

Isaiah 44:24

Isaiah 45:12

Isaiah 48:13

Isaiah 51:13

Jeremiah 10:12

Jeremiah 51:15

Zechariah 12:16

Psalms 102:25-27

Psalm 102:25-27 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

THis is probably the strongest verses in the group. There is no question that there was clear revelation and clear understanding that the destiny of this physical earth ultimately is destruction in fire. It might be that it will be a natural event related to the physical universe. It doesn't have to be though.

[Canuckster1127]

Yeah, either way.. I guess it shows some pretty simple yet strong evidence for God.

However, is there proof the church hasn't changed the bible?

Read this link and then let me know if you have any questions.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original?
by Rich Deem
Old Testament

How do we know the Bible has been kept in tact for over 2,000 years of copying? Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, our earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text, dating around 800 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls date to the time of Jesus and were copied by the Qumran community, a Jewish sect living around the Dead Sea. We also have the Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Old Testament dating in the second century B.C. When we compare these texts which have an 800-1000 years gap between them we are amazed that 95% of the texts are identical with only minor variations and a few discrepancies.
New Testament

In considering the New Testament we have tens of thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament in part or in whole, dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century, when the printing press was invented. These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor). Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "Gallic Wars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts).


Manuscript Evidence for Ancient Writings
Author Written Earliest Copy Time Span # Mss.

Caesar 100-44 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,000 yrs 10
Plato 427-347 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,200 yrs 7
Thucydides 460-400 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,300 yrs 8
Tacitus 100 A.D. 1100 A.D. 1,000 yrs 20
Suetonius 75-160 A.D. 950 A.D. 800 yrs 8
Homer (Iliad) 900 B.C. 400 B.C. 500 yrs 643
New Testament 40-100 A.D. 125 A.D. 25-50 yrs 24,000



Thousands of early Christian writings and lexionaries (first and second century) cite verses from the New Testament. In fact, it is nearly possible to put together the entire New Testament just from early Christian writings. For example, the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (dated 95 A.D.) cites verses from the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter. The letters of Ignatius (dated 115 A.D.) were written to several churches in Asia Minor and cites verses from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus. These letters indicate that the entire New Testament was written in the first century A.D. In addition, there is internal evidence for a first century date for the writing of the New Testament. The book of Acts ends abruptly with Paul in prison, awaiting trial (Acts 28:30-31 (1)). It is likely that Luke wrote Acts during this time, before Paul finally appeared before Nero. This would be about 62-63 A.D., meaning that Acts and Luke were written within thirty years of ministry and death of Jesus. Another internal evidence is that there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although Matthew, Mark and Luke record Jesus' prophecy that the temple and city would be destroyed within that generation (Matthew 24:1-2 (2),Mark 13:1-2 (3), Luke 21:5-9,20-24,32(4)), no New Testament book refers to this event as having happened. If they had been written after 70 A.D., it is likely that letters written after 70 A.D. would have mentioned the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. As stated by Nelson Glueck, former president of the Jewish Theological Seminary in the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, and renowned Jewish archaeologist, "In my opinion, every book of the New Testament was written between the forties and eighties of the first century A.D."

With all of the massive manuscript evidence you would think there would be massive discrepancies - just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived. The Mormons, theological liberals as well as other cults and false religions such as Islam that claim the Bible has been tampered with are completely proven false by the extensive, historical manuscript evidence.

[Insider]

Thanks for the link. That's interesting, especially that it's still 95% accurate. Can we trust the people who tell us these facts though?

[Canuckster1127]

Thanks for the link. That's interesting, especially that it's still 95% accurate. Can we trust the people who tell us these facts though?

You'll have to decide that for yourself. Examine the references and sources that are enumerated on the main page linked.

I can tell you that I have the equivalent of a degree in New Testament Biblical Literature. To my knowledge and experience this information is accurate and reasonable.