Evidence for God from Science

Jac, from a FG position, do you think Judas was\is saved?

John 2:11 says: "“This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him”

August wrote:Jac, from a FG position, do you think Judas was\is saved?

August, hope you don't mind if I add to your question.
Jac, after you have answered August, please clarify:

If it is possible that Judas is saved, is it a further possibility that he would continue to act in a rebellious/traitorous manner in heaven? If no, why not?

If it isn't possible that Judas is saved, from a FG position isn't still a possibility that a rebellious/traitorous/hater of Jesus will be saved, and if so, is it a further possibility that he would continue to act in a rebellious/traitorous/hateful manner in heaven? If no, why not?

Jac, from a FG position, do you think Judas was\is saved?

John 2:11 says: "“This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him”

If Judas believed in Jesus for everlasting life, then he is saved now. If Judas believed early in Jesus' ministry, then he certainly had come to the place where he disbelieved by the end of His ministry. That, of course, would not negate his salvation.

As for this verse, I can't say for 100% sure if by "the disciples" John was including Judas or not. I would have to do some studies on how he used that word through is book as compared to how he used "the twelve." The latter is found five times (6:13, 67, 70, 71; 20:24). He uses the word "disciples" (in the plural) in sixty five verses . . . now, the question is, Does is "disciples" equivelant with "the Twelve"? John 6:66 pretty clearly says, No. Then, we have to ask if Judas was already part of the Twelve at this point in time.

So, you can see there are some deeper issues that would have to be studied here that I haven't really gotten into. However, that's how I would start the study if it became necessary to do so.

If it is possible that Judas is saved, is it a further possibility that he would continue to act in a rebellious/traitorous manner in heaven? If no, why not?

No, it is not. The reason is that when we are saved, we receive a new nature. The old nature, however, is still with us. Thus, we have a choice whether or not to sin. When we do, we always do so as an expression of the old nater, for the new nature is incapable of sin (1 John 3:6, 9). If Judas is saved, then when he is resurrected, his sinful body (flesh) will be replaced with a spiritual body that will have a nature compatible with the man "born of God." That is, he will have NO sin nature, for that will have fallen away.

If it isn't possible that Judas is saved, from a FG position isn't still a possibility that a rebellious/traitorous/hater of Jesus will be saved, and if so, is it a further possibility that he would continue to act in a rebellious/traitorous/hateful manner in heaven? If no, why not?

It is possible that Judas is saved, so I guess this question gets a N/A? Relating to Judas, we have one question: Did he, or did he not, believe in Jesus Christ for everlasting life? If so, he is in heaven. This is the same for anybody who believes in Christ. In the day of our resurrection, we will be given glorified bodies, and that body has no desire to sin. Thus, no sin nature. Thus, no rebellion.

Hope this helps,

God bless

Jac,

Sorry Guy, but there is absolutely no way that Judas is in heaven. Let the word of God speak clearly...

Matthew 26:24
"..woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Unless you want to hold that it is better to have not been born than to be in heaven...

Psalm 69:25-28
"Let their dwelling place be desolate; Let no one live in their tents. For they persecute the ones You have struck, And talk of the grief of those You have wounded. Add iniquity to their iniquity, And let them not come into Your righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous."

We know that "anyone not found written in the Book of Life [will be] cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15). We also know that the above Psalm speaks of Judas (Compare Psalm 69:25 with Acts 1:20).

Jesus himself calls Judas "the Son of Perdition" (John 17:12), literally "the Son of Hell". We know that, according to the gospels, Satan entered Judas prioir to his betrayal (Luke 22:3, John 13:27). Satan and Heaven make strange acquaintances. We know that "Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” (Acts 1:25).

Any theology that counts on Judas being in heaven is a house built on rotten sand.

So the question remains whether Judas professed a belief in Jesus as Saviour or not.

(Joh 6:67) So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"

(Joh 6:68) Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

(Joh 6:69) and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

(Joh 6:70) Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."

(Joh 6:71) He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

and

(Mat 14:26) But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, "It is a ghost!" and they cried out in fear.

(Mat 14:27) But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid."

(Mat 14:28) And Peter answered him, "Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water."

(Mat 14:29) He said, "Come." So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus.

(Mat 14:30) But when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, "Lord, save me."

(Mat 14:31) Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

(Mat 14:32) And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.

(Mat 14:33) And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

It seems that a case can be made for some kind of belief by Judas, if we assume he was one of the 12, and that Simon Peter accurately reflected the beliefs of all 12. We all know the conclusion, Satan entered Judas and he betrayed Jesus, and, as PL pointed out above, it sure seems that he did not make it to heaven.

The question does remain whether or not that Judas actually believed. I have always contended that he did not, although I can't prove it. It is pretty widely accepted that Judas betrayed Jesus because he was disappointed. He was expecting a political messiah, and when Jesus didn't prove to be what he expected, he decided to turn Him in. Besides this, John describes Judas in this way:

• He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. (John 12:6, NIV)

This jives well with Jesus' saying, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (John 6:70) And consider Judas' own words. When he betrayed Jesus, he greeted him as "Rabbi." (Matt. 26:49; Mark 14:45) This was at the end of Jesus' three years of ministry. This is as close to a denial of who Jesus is as we can get without him actually coming out and saying it. And, of course, we have the theological truth that a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon. The only argument a person could put up against this would be that, prior to Pentecost, believers were not indwelt by the HS and could thus be indwelt by demons. That may or may not work . . .

Regardless, I am not asserting that Judas IS saved. The only evidence we have to say that he was saved is that John says in 2:11 that the "disciples" believed in Him. It doesn't specificy who these are, and since John repeatedly refers to Judas throughout his book with obvious distain, it would be something of a stretch to argue that John thought Judas actually believed. The fact that the disciples worshiped Jesus says nothing of Judas' belief or unbelief, because there will be plenty of people who have worshipped Jesus and still be damned.

BAH

Nevermind, I should have looked more closely. All of this is pointless, because Judas didn't believe.

• On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:60-64)

This is a pretty clear statement that Judas never believed. So, case closed, so far as I see it. See what happens when you dig a little bit?

Jac3510 wrote: BAH

Nevermind, I should have looked more closely. All of this is pointless, because Judas didn't believe.

• On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:60-64)

This is a pretty clear statement that Judas never believed. So, case closed, so far as I see it. See what happens when you dig a little bit?

I don't necessarily see it as that simple, because this is where the distinction between the 12 and the other disciples come in. Simon Peter clearly says that the 12 believed, while Jesus was speaking about the non-belief of the larger group of disciples.

I don't necessarily see it as that simple, because this is where the distinction between the 12 and the other disciples come in. Simon Peter clearly says that the 12 believed, while Jesus was speaking about the non-belief of the larger group of disciples.

On the other hand James says that even the demons believe and tremble. Could it be they they all believed but one (Judas) was just an intellectual belief?

FFC wrote:

I don't necessarily see it as that simple, because this is where the distinction between the 12 and the other disciples come in. Simon Peter clearly says that the 12 believed, while Jesus was speaking about the non-belief of the larger group of disciples.

On the other hand James says that even the demons believe and tremble. Could it be they they all believed but one (Judas) was just an intellectual belief?

That's quite possible, but is it then possible to know anything about the salvation status of any of the 12, by this standard?

It is that simple. Look at the entire passage: (NIV)

• 54Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

This is one of the "hard sayings" of Jesus. He is here talking to "the Jews" at this point. He has been having a discussion with them on Him being the only way to salvation. Now, after heraing this . . .

• 60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
  61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

It is the disciples - not only the Twelve - who hear what Jesus has said to the Jews. They get upset, and when Jesus presses them on it, "many" leave. Now, because the get upset, Jesus basically says, "This offends you? These words I've spoken are they words of life, but some of you don't believe them!" What words do some of these disciples not believe? The words of life. John then tells us that Jesus says this BECAUSE He knew "from the beginning" who did not believe and who would betray. For the record "and" is kai, and while it does mean "and," it is more than that. It is a connective word that brings two ideas together. The one who betrays is grammatically one who does not believe. But, John isn't going to let his whole point rest on one connective word, so he goes on:

• 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
  
  67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
  
  68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."
  
  70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Many have left, and the Twelve are left. Jesus asks them if they are going to leave, too. Peter confesses that the Twelve believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that His words are life, which is exactly what Jesus had just said. No doubt he thought he spoke for everyone in the group, including Judas, but, of course, he doesn't know what is in the heart of man. Jesus does, though, so He says, "I picked you twelve personally, but one of you is a devil." And if that weren't clear enough, John tells us that He was talking about Judas. Compare that with what we just saw above. Jesus said that some didn't believe, and he said that BECAUSE He knew that some would betray them. When the Twelve were left, he said the same thing again. In other words, there were not simply unbelievers within the general disciples, but there were unbelievers (well, one) within the Twelve. This doesn't surprise Jesus. He knew it, and He knew it from the beginning. He had picked him. He had always known what kind of person that Judas was . . . an unbeliever.

The simple fact is that Judas never believed. You are resting your entire case the the VERY flimsy grounds that John says in 2:11 that his disciples believed in Him, which you admit might or might not include Judas. However, we have, in this same book, John telling us that Judas never believed.

So, the weight of evidence is strongly in favor of Judas never believing. Let me put it ever more strongly: you can't state exegetically that Judas believed in Jesus for everlasting life. It's simply not a supported idea. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, both theological and exegetical. Besides all this, August, you can't have Judas believing as a Calvinist anyway, because the text doesn't distinguish between "real belief" and "false belief." For you, "real believers" will persevere until the end by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus, even if Judas was being referred to in 2:11, he didn't really believe. So I don't see this discussion going anywhere, to be honest . . .

Right, but the 12 remained, Judas was one of them and Simon Peter said all 12 believed. So the preceding bit does not have relevance when it speaks about the disciples.

Ok, let me rephrase it this way...Do you think that Judas thought he believed? Simon Peter seems to confirm at least that, backed up by what happened on the boat. Also, if he did not have some measure of belief, why did he show remorse and return the money?

Sorry if this is sidetracking an interesting topic, but I am amazed by what I think that I have just discovered.
August, Jac, PL ....please help me out on this.

On the Seven Reasons thread Jac has repeatedly said that I believe in salvation by works. I have described my position as:

1) belief necessarily results in an event (the receipt of the Spirit by the believer)
2) the event necessarily results an increase in the good works produced by the believer(the believer produces more good fruit)

...by Jac's logic this advocates salvation by works. yet, I note in response to my questions, Jac clarified that his position is (as paraphrased by me):

1) belief necessarily results in an event (the elimination of the believer's old nature)
2) the event necessarily results in a an increase in the good works produced by the believer(the believer produces more good fruit and only good fruit)

...it would seem to me that if the view that "belief necessarily results in an event and that the event necessarily results in an increase in the good works produced by the believer" is salvation by works in one case then it would be salvation by works in the other case as well....and so I must conclude that Jac holds to salvation by works. Fortunately, I have the luxury of dismissing Jac's logic and insisting that I believe in salvation by grace alone, but poor Jac doesn't have that luxury and so he must be stuck with concluding that, he himself holds to salvation by works.
Now, I admit that Jac's logic is sometimes lost on me and so maybe it isn't as clear as I think it is, so please.... August, Jac, PL what do you think?....if we apply Jac's logic consistently doesn't it mean that Jac holds to salvation by works?

I have to admit that at first I thought I had made some mistake but then I looked at this from Jac(again from the Seven Reasons thread):

Now think about this . . . God will not be mocked. Therefore, God works in people so that they will not mock Him. It is then logically necessary that God does not save those that mock Him, so it must follow that He gives the Holy Spirit so that those whom He does save will not mock! This is the basis on which I accuse you of believing in a meritorious salvation. God gives you the Holy Spirit to make sure that you don't mess it up. He makes you be able to merit it. Now, can you show me where the fault in my logic is?

However, if I amend Jac's bit so that it applies to what he says happens in heaven, I get:

Now think about this . . . God will not be mocked. Therefore, God eliminates the old nature from people so that they will not mock Him. It is then logically necessary that God does not save those that mock Him, so it must follow that He eliminates the old nature from people so that those whom He lets into heaven will not mock! This is the basis on which Jac accuses himself of believing in a meritorious salvation. God eliminates the old nature to make sure that you don't mess it up. He makes you be able to merit it. Now, can you show me where the fault in my logic is?

It seems unavoidable, Jac believes in salvation by works if Jac's logic is good.

Again, just because Peter said they all believed doesn't mean they all did. I'm sure that Peter THOUGHT they all believed. He would have bet his life that Judas was a believer. Judas probably told them he did, though he undoubtedly lied. Why? Who knows . . . group acceptance, probably?

Judas never believed in Jesus for everlasting life. He never trusted Him for his salvation. He looked to Jesus to be a political messiah, and when that didn't happen, he got angry and decided to turn him in. I've already shown that Jesus declared that Judas did not believe. Just because Peter said the Twelve believed doesn't mean that Judas did.

Did Judas think he believed? I don't see any reason to suppose so. Jesus declared that He was God, and that all you had to do to have everlasting life was to trust Him for it. Judas rejected that, because that wasn't his idea of a messiah. So, he decided to turn him in. As for his remorse, he realized that Jesus was an innocent man. That still doesn't have anything to do with Judas trusting Jesus' promise for everlasting life.

*sigh* ttoews, this is what happens when you try to argue for the sake of finding disagreement . . .

Your paraphrase of my position is wrong. You said:

...by Jac's logic this advocates salvation by works. yet, I note in response to my questions, Jac clarified that his position is (as paraphrased by me):

1) belief necessarily results in an event (the elimination of the believer's old nature)
2) the event necessarily results in a an increase in the good works produced by the believer(the believer produces more good fruit and only good fruit)

The elimination of the sin nature comes in the resurrection, ttoews, not on this side of the grave. Belief results in justification and sealing. Sealing necessarily results, AT THE RESURRECTION, at the elimination of the sin nature.

The good works we do in this life we do as a choice between our sin nature and our new nature. We are rewarded for the deeds done "in the body." These deeds, good or bad, have NO bearing on our salvation, but completely on our rewards, or lack thereof.

edit: as for your heaven bit:

However, if I amend Jac's bit so that it applies to what he says happens in heaven, I get:

Now think about this . . . God will not be mocked. Therefore, God eliminates the old nature from people so that they will not mock Him. It is then logically necessary that God does not save those that mock Him, so it must follow that He eliminates the old nature from people so that those whom He lets into heaven will not mock! This is the basis on which Jac accuses himself of believing in a meritorious salvation. God eliminates the old nature to make sure that you don't mess it up. He makes you be able to merit it. Now, can you show me where the fault in my logic is?

Again, this has NO bearing on the discussion. God gives us a new nature as part of a promise. At the resurrection, our old self is gone, and we are saved from the presence of sin.

At justification, we are saved from the penalty of sin. Through progressive sanctification, we are saved from the power of sin. And at the resurrection, we will be saved from the presence of sin. None of this has to do with my works. In heaven, I won't have a sin nature. The same can't be said here, so, again, this has no bearing.

And for the record, I don't have a problem with the "mocking" bit. I've said before that has no soteriological context. You are the one who argued that it does, so the entire quote of mine you referenced dealt with the implications of YOUR logic, not mine. Remember, I don't have a problem with a person "mocking" God and still going to heaven, so I don't say that God "will not be mocked," so far as salvation is concerned. Context, ttoews . . . it's important in more than just biblical studies!

edit2: btw, ttoews, just to show how silly you are getting with this. You are asserting that to believe alone in Jesus is a works based salvation because God will not be mocked. You try to use my own logic against me to prove it. If it turns out that you are right, then I believe in a works based salvation. However, by definition, because the logic is right, so do you. So your argument is self defeating.

But, at the basis of all this, you are arguing that faith alone in Christ alone is a meritorious salvation. Do you know how far you are stretching now??? You believe in a salvation by works because, IN THIS LIFE, a person has to do good works to be saved. After all, "Faith without works is dead," right? So, God gives a person the Holy Spirit to make sure that happens. But see, none of that has any bearing on my position, ttoews . . . I would suggest you read John 3:16. Whosoever BELIEVES has everlasting life. If you have a problem with what the word "believe" means, take it up with the lexicon. It means "convinced something is true." No more, and no less.

Try again

Jac, so to close my part of the discussion, why do you suppose Judas did not believe? Jesus says it was because it was not granted to him by the Father, and we know in retrospect that it was to happen like that because prophesy had to be fulfilled. However, Judas had every opportunity to believe, he saw the miracles, he listened to the lessons, he prayed and fasted with the others. I know this is an argument from silence, but I find it pretty hard to believe that Judas, even if it was just for a split second, did not believe somewhere along that route.

Anyhow, interesting discussion. Thanks.