Galatians 4:21-31

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Christian2
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Galatians 4:21-31

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Galatians 4: 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:


“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Can anyone explain to me what is going on in these verses? What is the problem facing Paul and the Galatians? Why is Paul bringing Hagar and Ishmael into this?

Thank you.
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Re: Galatians 4:21-31

Post by Canuckster1127 »

Christian2 wrote:
Galatians 4: 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:


“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Can anyone explain to me what is going on in these verses? What is the problem facing Paul and the Galatians? Why is Paul bringing Hagar and Ishmael into this?

Thank you.
Here's a reasonably good explanation. There's more at the original site so click on the link if you want to see more.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1353

All Material below is written by Bob Deffinbaugh , Th.M.
The Problem
(4:21)
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

Up to this point Paul has been refuting the message of the Judaizers. Now in verse 21 Paul throws down the gauntlet, exposing the methods of the Judaizers. Paul is operating on the premise that bad methods produce bad messages. Let those who desire to be under the Law consider the way in which they must learn from the Law.

This is by no means a problem unique to the Galatian churches, Paul, and the Judaizers. It is the same problem which those who desire to know and to obey the truth face in dealing with those who wish to distort the truth. Peter wrote that false teachers were distorting the Scriptures which Paul had written (2 Pet. 3:16). Our Lord's basic difference with the scribes and Pharisees concerned their method of interpreting the Scriptures. Jesus sought to expose the sloppy way in which His adversaries handled the Old Testament Scriptures (cf. Matt. 22:29-31; 23:24). The Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) was our Lord's explanation of the difference between His hermeneutics and those of the scribes and Pharisees.

If you stop to think about it for a moment you will realize that the first New Testament Scripture which the Galatians read would have likely been the book addressed to them. The vast majority of Scripture available to them at that time would have been the Old Testament. Thus they were challenged with the problem of how a Gentile Christian was to interpret and apply the Old Testament Scriptures, which were written to the Jews. It appears to me that the answer of the Judaizers was quite simple, even if wrong. They taught that a Gentile should become a Jew, and then interpret and apply everything literally and directly to himself. This method fails, however, to take into account the change in God's dealing with the Jews, before and after the coming of Christ. Paul's challenge in verse 21 surfaces this most basic issue of hermeneutics, for different methods result in different messages.

The Passage
(4:22-23)
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Verses 22 and 23 outline the passage and its essential facts. Paul includes the Book of Genesis under a broader use of the term “law.” The “law” includes more than just the Commandments given to Moses, and must be interpreted in light of the larger context.

Notice how differently the biblical writers referred to their text. Sometimes they simply introduced Scripture with an expression such as, “it is written.” In other instances they would identify the book from which the text was taken. In Luke's gospel our Lord referred to a text in Exodus by the designation, “the bush” (Luke 20:37). You see, they did not have the chapters and paragraphs designated, nor passage divided into verse as we do. Consequently, the way texts were cited may sound strange to us.

The events to which Paul refers in this passage are found in Genesis 16-21. It is thus a rather large portion of Scripture, not a mere handful of verses. Paul outlines the text according to his purposes. Abraham had two wives, each of which bore a son. The slave woman, Hagar, bore a son who was the result of mere fleshly effort, while the free woman, Sarah, bore a son who was the product of God's promise and His power. From this account in Genesis, identified by these facts, Paul draws out some significant details in the following verses.

The Parallels
(4:24-27)
24 This is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.”

The first expression in verse 24, “This contains an allegory” (NASB), is a puzzling construction to many of the commentators,81 resulting in a number of alternative renderings. I believe that the translators of the NASB have wisely handled the difficulties, stressing that Paul uses the passage allegorically, without interpreting it allegorically.

Before we attempt to draw any conclusions about Paul's method of interpreting the events surrounding the two sons of Abraham, let us concentrate on the message which Paul wishes us to grasp. In verses 24-27 Paul calls the Galatian readers' attention to a similarity between their circumstances and those of Abraham's two wives and their sons. Abraham's two wives were a kind of personification of the two covenants (the Abrahamic and the Mosaic) which Paul has been comparing and contrasting.

Hagar personifies the Mosaic Covenant, and her slave son is symbolic of all the sons of the Mosaic Covenant. Paul likens this bondwoman to that covenant which proceeded from Mt. Sinai in Arabia. The children of the Covenant are called slaves (v. 24). Having clearly identified Hagar with the Mosaic Covenant, Paul presses on to identify this woman with the present earthly Jerusalem (v. 25). This was the capital, as it were, of unbelieving Judaism which was enslaved by its religious system that rejected liberty in Christ (v. 25).

Paul contrasts Hagar and her bondage with Sarah and her son, who was not only free but Abraham's heir (vv. 26-27). Sarah represents the heavenly Jerusalem, whose sons are free (v. 26). Paul cites Isaiah 54:1 to establish the relationship of Sarah to the heavenly Jerusalem. The connection between the two is not a figment of Paul's fanciful imagination, as the allegorizers would have us believe. The context of this passage from Isaiah reveals God's promise to restore Zion after her captivity. It is not accidental that it follows immediately on the heels of the promise of Messiah in chapters 52 and 53. The bounty and blessing of the restored Jerusalem is described in terms of a barren woman, who once bore the reproach of her barrenness but will afterward be blessed with more sons than the married woman. Paul takes up the figure of “sons” from this text and applies it to the restored Jerusalem. What may appear to us to be a spiritualization of this passage is actually the result of Paul's more careful handling, based on his greater insight into this text.82

The Point of the Passage
(4:28-31)
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

The parallels between Abraham's two wives and the Galatian problem become razor sharp in verses 28-31. These verses serve as not only the conclusion of this passage, but also for the entire section of chapters 3 and 4. Notice the relevance of Paul's “allegory” to the situation in Galatia.

(1) Those who live by faith are the heirs of Abraham, not those who live by law-works. The scribes and the Pharisees, along with the Judaizers of the Galatians, had prided themselves on being spiritually superior because they were the “sons of Abraham.” Paul's reference to Sarah and Hagar conveyed an amazing reality: the Judaizers were the sons of Abraham, but they were not the sons of Sarah. They had the right father, but the wrong mother. Only those who have come to God through faith in Christ are the sons of Abraham through Sarah. Men who approach God through their own righteousness (of law-works) are really sons of Hagar, under bondage. Once again in graphic terms Paul has pressed the point of the superiority of faith over works, of grace over law, of the promises made to Abraham over the temporary restraints of the law.

(2) The Judaizers were persecuting the Gentile Christians by insisting that keeping the Old Testament Law is a priority and a privilege. Abraham seemed to be aloof to the persecution of Isaac by Ishmael, but it was apparent to Sarah. Ishmael's treatment of Isaac was paralleled by the treatment of the Gentiles by the Judaizers. Just as the flesh wars with the Spirit (5:17), so Ishmael, a child of the flesh, was at odds with Isaac, a child of the promise, born according to the Spirit (4:29). The Gentiles were not only bewitched (3:1) by these false teachers, they were actually being mistreated. It was time for them to wake up. They were not to be flattered by the zealous pursuit of the Judaizers (4:14) but to recognize their zealousness for what it was—persecution.

(3) The Galatian saints were instructed by this event in the life of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar, concerning how they should respond to the Judaizers. Abraham loved Ishmael (cf. Gen. 17:18) and was reluctant to expel him and his mother (Gen. 21:11). It was only due to Sarah's hard-line stand and God's directive to do what his wife demanded that Ishmael was sent away.

Admittedly I have always felt that Sarah was a grouch. Frankly, I still do. Grouch or not, Sarah was right, and Abraham was wrong. He wanted to try to conciliate his two sons and their mothers, but Sarah would have none of this. Sarah had much more sensitivity to the hostility between these two sons and the danger of “peaceful coexistence.” She knew that the two sons were incompatible and must be separated. Furthermore, from God's words of instruction to Abraham we can conclude that she was right. The Scripture tells us what must be done: “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman” (Gen. 21:10; Gal. 4:30).

Isaac's mother Sarah was correct in insisting that Hagar and Ishmael must go. I do not think that it is mere coincidence that in the immediately preceding context (4:19) Paul used the imagery of a mother's love for her child. You see, Paul, like Sarah, saw the only proper course of action clearly, and like her, he made the next step painfully pointed. Paul was saying through the mouth of Sarah, “Throw out those Judaizers, for they are not compatible with salvation by faith!”

The argument of chapters 3 and 4 has been aptly summarized by this “allegory.” The Galatian Christians are the sons of Abraham and thus heirs of the blessings God promised him and provided in Christ. To go back under the law is to seek an inferior status, to which even the Jews dare not return. The pursuit of the Judaizers and their teaching was really persecution. Let the Gentile churches deal appropriately with the Judaizers by casting them out, just as Abraham had done with Hagar and her son.
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Christian2
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Post by Christian2 »

Thanks Canuckster1127,

The explanation is a good one.

Do you think that Jesus would have taught it?
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Post by Canuckster1127 »

Christian2 wrote:Thanks Canuckster1127,

The explanation is a good one.

Do you think that Jesus would have taught it?
What leads you to believe He would not? ;)
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
Christian2
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Post by Christian2 »

Canuckster1127 wrote:
Christian2 wrote:Thanks Canuckster1127,

The explanation is a good one.

Do you think that Jesus would have taught it?
What leads you to believe He would not? ;)
Ah, answering my question with a question. Now THAT sounds like something Jesus would do. LOL

Frankly, I don't know whether He would or not. Did He come close?

BTW, that link you gave me is great. Commentaries on lots of passages. I bookmarked it for future use. :)
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Re: Galatians 4:21-31

Post by ruthrush »

[quote="Canuckster1127"][quote="Christian2"][quote]
<snipped>

Here's a reasonably good explanation. There's more at the original site so click on the link if you want to see more.

[url]http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1353[/url]


[color=darkblue][i]At the origional site, it said:"Those who fail to see the Law as inferior to grace (as Paul has taught in Galatians), will inevitably seek to directly relate the Old Testament Scriptures (e.g. contemporary adherence to the Mosaic Laws), or will resort to spiritualizing the Law to make it relevant. Discerning the difference between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic is the basis for Paul's hermeneutic of interpreting the Old Testament literally and then applying it by analogy."

One must believe this before going on to read the commentary. Therefore a complete reading and understanding of the rest of Galatians is a first step.

John 1:17 should first be seen to show how the translaters of most of the Bibles we have, lead us to a false basis of understanding.
John 1:17 is a commonly mistranslated and misquoted verse. The NKJ Bible translates it as "For the Law was given through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ".
It does NOT say that!

The word "but" is NOT there! It was added.

The word "for" should be translated as because
it's real meaning not "for".

John is [b]not [/b]saying that there was no grace of God before Yeshua came!
(For the Law was given through Moses but grace came through Jesus Christ".)


John is [b]not [/b]saying that there was no truth in the writings of Moses! God forbid!
(For the Law was given through Moses but truth came through Jesus Christ".)


The verse really says, "Because the Law through Moses was given, grace and truth through (or by) Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMaschiach) came to be" (ginomai again).

The commentator is basing his comentary on a wrong foundation. There has never been Law without grace. God by nature is, and always has been, a God of grace. He also is a God who gives us Laws. His Law is Holy, just and good said Paul the writer of Galatians. He would never abide anyone calling it inferior.
The commentator also declares that Galatians is about the difference between the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants. I firmly disagree.
Paul is writing to the Galatians about the same issue he brought to the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:1, the issue of circumcision of gentile believers for conversion to become Jews in order to be saved.
In the 1st chapter, he says, I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Messiah unto another gospel:
[[b]The[/b] gospel is contained in John 3:16.]
Chapter 2: 2-3 says, And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:7)But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 15-17 says, We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by works of law, but by the faith of Messiah Yeshua, even we have believed in Messiah Yeshua, that we might be justified by the faith of Messiah and not by works of law: for by works of law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Messiah the minister of sin? God forbid! 21)I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if justification comes by law, then Messiah is dead in vain.
3:1,14,21,28 say,O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Yeshua the Messiah hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Messiah Yeshua; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Is [b]the [/b]Law then against the promises of God? God forbid : for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily justification should have been by law. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is [b]neither male nor female[/b]: for ye are all one in Messiah Yeshua.
4:7-9, says, Wherefore thou art no more a slave but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Messiah. but at one time indeed not knowing God, you were slaves unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye [b]again[/b] to the weak and beggarly elements, to which ye desire again to be in bondage ? 30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. 5:1-4)Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled [b]again [/b]with the yoke of slavery. Look, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Messiah shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do [b]the whole[/b] Law.You have become estranged from Messiah you who by law are justified , ye are fallen from grace.
6:15 ends the book saying, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
The problem Paul was addressing was adult circumcision for salvation in this letter to the Galatians. He was not making a theological treatise to compare covenants.
Adult circumcision as Acts 15 states is a custom of Moses. It is not a Mosaic covenant Law. Gentiles do not need to be circumcised and become Jews, as the apostles and the Jerusalem Council ruled according to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scripture.
Ruth[/i][/color]



All Material below is written by Bob Deffinbaugh , Th.M.

[quote]The Problem
(4:21)
21 Tell me, you who want to be [b]under law[/b], do you not listen to[b] the law?[/b]
Up to this point Paul has been refuting the message of the Judaizers. Now in verse 21 Paul throws down the gauntlet, exposing the methods of the Judaizers. Paul is operating on the premise that bad methods produce bad messages. Let those who desire to be under [b]the Law [/b]consider the way in which [b]they must learn from the Law[/b].

[color=darkblue][i]See how the commentator, quoting the verse correctly, then changes the verse to suit his interpretation.
Notice the first "law" does not have a "the" in front of it, therefore referring to rabbinic non-Biblical laws ] the law [Mosaic Law ] do ye not hear? If they heard the Torah, they'd see the falseness of the pharisees.
Ruth[/i][/color]


This is by no means a problem unique to the Galatian churches, Paul, and the Judaizers. It is the same problem which those who desire to know and to obey the truth face in dealing with those who wish to distort the truth. Peter wrote that false teachers were distorting the Scriptures which Paul had written (2 Pet. 3:16). Our Lord's basic difference with the scribes and Pharisees concerned their method of interpreting the Scriptures. Jesus sought to expose the sloppy way in which His adversaries handled the Old Testament Scriptures (cf. Matt. 22:29-31; 23:24). The Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) was our Lord's explanation of the difference between His hermeneutics and those of the scribes and Pharisees.

[[color=darkblue]i]Yeshua condemned the pharisees strongly for adding to and subtracting from the Word of God, which is clearly a sin. This commentator has done the same thing.
Ruth[/i][/color]



If you stop to think about it for a moment you will realize that the first New Testament Scripture which the Galatians read would have likely been the book addressed to them. The vast majority of Scripture available to them at that time would have been the Old Testament. Thus they were challenged with the problem of how a Gentile Christian was to interpret and apply the Old Testament Scriptures, which were written to the Jews.

[color=darkblue][i]The Tanach is the Word of Almighty God for all people. The Jews were given it to record, preserve and share with the whole world. The Bereans were applauded for searching the Tanach to see if what Paul was saying was the truth. All people need to do likewise. The Tanach is the basis for comparison for all truth . The Messiah of the Tanach, is the only true Messiah. The God of the Tanach, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the one and only God. This is the God who so loved the world.
Ruth[/i][/color]

It appears to me that the answer of the Judaizers was quite simple, even if wrong. They taught that a Gentile should become a Jew, and then interpret and apply everything literally and directly to himself. This method fails, however, to take into account the change in God's dealing with the Jews, before and after the coming of Christ. Paul's challenge in verse 21 surfaces this most basic issue of hermeneutics, for different methods result in different messages.

The Passage
(4:22-23)
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Verses 22 and 23 outline the passage and its essential facts. Paul includes the Book of Genesis under a broader use of the term “law.” The “law” includes more than just the Commandments given to Moses, and must be interpreted in light of the larger context.

[color=blue]
[i]The word, "Law" is only used in verse 21.
Ruth[/i][/color]


Notice how differently the biblical writers referred to their text. Sometimes they simply introduced Scripture with an expression such as, “it is written.” In other instances they would identify the book from which the text was taken. In Luke's gospel our Lord referred to a text in Exodus by the designation, “the bush” (Luke 20:37). You see, they did not have the chapters and paragraphs designated, nor passage divided into verse as we do. Consequently, the way texts were cited may sound strange to us.



[color=blue][i]Luke 20:37 doesn't say that. It says "at the bush". It does not refer to the Exodus text but where Moses was when he called God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The writer didn't look at the Greek.
Ruth[/i][/color]




The events to which Paul refers in this passage are found in Genesis 16-21. It is thus a rather large portion of Scripture, not a mere handful of verses. Paul outlines the text according to his purposes. Abraham had two wives, each of which bore a son. The slave woman, Hagar, bore a son who was the result of mere fleshly effort, while the free woman, Sarah, bore a son who was the product of God's promise and His power. From this account in Genesis, identified by these facts, Paul draws out some significant details in the following verses.

The Parallels
(4:24-27)
24 This is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.”

The first expression in verse 24, “This contains an allegory” (NASB), is a puzzling construction to many of the commentators,81 resulting in a number of alternative renderings. I believe that the translators of the NASB have wisely handled the difficulties, stressing that Paul uses the passage allegorically, without interpreting it allegorically.


[color=darkblue][i]But in fact, the covenant from Mt. Sinai is not a covenant of Hagar. She or her descendents were not a part of that covenant. So, if one part of this statement is not literally true, why should the other part be taken as literally true? That the Mosaic Covenant brings forth servitude is only an allegory, not necessarily a true statement. This is really a rabbinic-like midrash not a true allegory. The mixture of truth and untruth, leads to confusion and misinterpretation.
Ruth[/i][/color]

<snipped>
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Canuckster1127
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Post by Canuckster1127 »

Ruth,

Reading through your posts is extremely difficult due to the formatting. Frankly, the effort needed to get past that let alone the assertions without references and claims without the exegetical basis of the assertion is something I don't have the time or the inclination to wrestle with.

If I can help you to understand how to use the tools so that this barrier can be overcome, please let me know.

Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Post by ruthrush »

[quote="Canuckster1127"]Ruth,

Reading through your posts is extremely difficult due to the formatting. Frankly, the effort needed to get past that let alone the assertions without references and claims without the exegetical basis of the assertion is something I don't have the time or the inclination to wrestle with.

If I can help you to understand how to use the tools so that this barrier can be overcome, please let me know.

Bart[/quote]


I would welcome advice on how to use the forum's tools, thank you.

Please let me know which assertions have lacked references and are in need of further exegesis, and I will give them to you.
Ruth
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Post by bizzt »

Hey Ruth

What Browser are you using? Also are you copying your posts into a Word editor and then pasting them back into the Forum?

Thanks
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Post by Canuckster1127 »

Sorry I didn't respond quickly Ruth.

It looks to me like you are either:

1. Copying from a word processor which may be causing our editor to not pick up on your codes; or

2. Eliminating some of the codes in your responses.

The result is that your answers which appear to be embedded in the original text are showing up with little or no differentiation and making them very hard to decipher.

I would suggest, that after you post, you view the response and if it doesn't appear as you intend, that you return and edit it until it does.

If people have to work too hard to figure out who is speaking and what is being said, they tend to just move on and your message is lost.

If you want me to edit one of your messages to give you a model on how to do that, I will, but only with your invitation to do so.

Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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