Evidence for God from Science

I've been religious for a year now but yesterday I was watching "mentalist" TV clips on the internet where a man was bending forks without touching them, putting dents into spoons, bending pencils and making a cigarette move through the air! (This was all on the Ellen Degeneres show) I'm aware that this could be a hoax but I've also played the ouija board and I am convinced it is nothing to do with spirits and is only the power of the mind. For example, if I will the glass to move then it will, and if I concentrate hard on a letter, it goes to that letter.

Power of the mind would also explain why the man was able to push his finger up into the spoon, why Criss Angel is able to walk through a solid glass window (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3f-WPrK ... el%20glass) and why people can walk on coals and break concrete slabs with their hands.

This is the problem I have - everything that happens can be explained by the power of the mind rather than God - even prayers. Positive thinking works because it is to do with your mind and it could be the same with praying - you're just asking for positive things and believing they will happen.

I really need someone to change my theory!
Thanks.

kathryn89 wrote:I've been religious for a year now but yesterday I was watching "mentalist" TV clips on the internet where a man was bending forks without touching them, putting dents into spoons, bending pencils and making a cigarette move through the air! (This was all on the Ellen Degeneres show) I'm aware that this could be a hoax but I've also played the ouija board and I am convinced it is nothing to do with spirits and is only the power of the mind. For example, if I will the glass to move then it will, and if I concentrate hard on a letter, it goes to that letter.

Power of the mind would also explain why the man was able to push his finger up into the spoon, why Criss Angel is able to walk through a solid glass window (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3f-WPrK ... el%20glass) and why people can walk on coals and break concrete slabs with their hands.

This is the problem I have - everything that happens can be explained by the power of the mind rather than God - even prayers. Positive thinking works because it is to do with your mind and it could be the same with praying - you're just asking for positive things and believing they will happen.

I really need someone to change my theory!
Thanks.

Kathrynn,

Welcome to the board.

What you are referring too is commonly known as "psionics."

Frankly, it is an area rife with fraud and charlatans. There are no scientific evidences of these type of "telekenesis" elements where mental powers are demonstrated to have a physical effect. Frankly, those claiming the power to do this also resist controlled environments with independent observers using contolled elements.

Where there is more "credibility" on these type of issues is in the area of ESP. Even there, there is a lot disputed.

The area that you speak of in terms of prayer etc is an area where I believe there is more evidence showing that a positive and hopeful attitude in a person effects a more positive result in situations such as illness. I've been a pastor and a chaplain with the American Cancer Society and I can personally testify based upon my observations and experiences that people who have faith in God, hope in an afterlife, belief in a personal God and the prayers of others and support and interaction of friends and family tend to do better than those who don't. While that is a general observation I also have to say that I've seen exceptions in both directions so it is not an absolute and I'd also have to admit that as an observer, I am biased by my own beliefs in this direction and thus I likely tend to construct my interpretation of what I've seen and experienced in this regard according to my presupposition that this is true.

Rich Deem, the founder of this site, has an article that deals with some of these elements, here that you might find interesting.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/smj1.html

So, I would first suggest, that you're covering a pretty broad spectrun with your statements.

I'm pretty comfortable that bending spoons etc is not clearly demonstracted in a controlled environment and is the domain of parlor trick illusionists and magicians.

There appears to be more "evidence" for the softer elemets of ESP etc, but this is by no means definitive as there are a lot of questions as to the validity of the studies and controls.

I think we are on firmer ground when we claim and recognize that a positive attitude within a person has positive effects physically and restoratively.

There appears to be evidence as well that prayer for people can have demonstrable effects, but to be consistent, you'd have to admit that some of the same issues in things like ESP etc. could apply here as well.

The onus really would be on you to demonstrate by more than your opinion and by more than anecdotal evidence, that there is real evidence that the mind has the power to affect the physical environment directly.

I think if you spend some time looking for that you'll find how shaky the whole premise you are presenting is.

Feel free to present what you have however and I and others will be happy to interact with you.

Blessings,

Bart

Thanks very much!

In addition, the mind is something that God gave us, that nothing else known to us has. Would it also be valid to say that if we can do these things with our mind, that our mind really does exist, not just the physical brain itself. To go a step further, do we also have the power to communicate with God, through the minds that God gave us.
By the way, you can purchase Chris Angels secrets to his magic tricks including his levitation, walking through glass windows etc... Its all bogus, in terms of; realistically speaking. However, magically, with the help of editing using computer editing techniques and basic camera tricks, you can do wonders. Its all edited, the audience is probably paid to awww and most similar shows use virtually the same techniques. Have you ever actually seen any of this stuff "live"? Or when the show is already done, nice and neatly packed together to form an enterntaining stir.

godslanguage wrote:In addition, the mind is something that God gave us, that nothing else known to us has. Would it also be valid to say that if we can do these things with our mind, that our mind really does exist, not just the physical brain itself. To go a step further, do we also have the power to communicate with God, through the minds that God gave us.
By the way, you can purchase Chris Angels secrets to his magic tricks including his levitation, walking through glass windows etc... Its all bogus, in terms of; realistically speaking. However, magically, with the help of editing using computer editing techniques and basic camera tricks, you can do wonders. Its all edited, the audience is probably paid to awww and most similar shows use virtually the same techniques. Have you ever actually seen any of this stuff "live"? Or when the show is already done, nice and neatly packed together to form an enterntaining stir.

I think for the Christian there is something within us that changes the world around us.

That is the Holy Spirit and He is free to work within us and through us to affect change both through prayer and on His own initiative and volition.

Often the means to accomplish this for us is through prayer.

Our mind is not the means. Our mind comes into play as we align our will with God's. God speaks reality into place and is not bound by the limits placed on us.

Science is not equipped or designed to prove this element.

Science is not the sum of all truth.

There's a Canadian, now living in Australia called teh Amazing Randi. He has a $1 Million dollar challenge to anyone who can do these things under his supervised conditions. No one has ever collected. He will actually do all this 'tricks' himself and admit they are nothing but tricks.

http://www.randi.org/

The only problem is that he is also an athiest and declares that all religious happening, healings etc, are tricks also, but those he cannot duplicate.

Ray