Evidence for God from Science

Hi all,

The author of Hebrews wrote in Chap 6:4-6 (NIV):

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness in the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Realising that no one is perfect and that we are all sinners, how does the above statement apply to a one-time true believer who has drifted from the faith, preferring instead to lead a rather debaucherous life full of sin, but then following many years of this wicked lifestyle, to suddenly "see the light" (again?) and to repent, even at the point of death?

Would such a person be saved?

[quote="John T"]Hi all,

The author of Hebrews wrote in Chap 6:4-6 (NIV):

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness in the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Realising that no one is perfect and that we are all sinners, how does the above statement apply to a one-time true believer who has drifted from the faith, preferring instead to lead a rather debaucherous life full of sin, but then following many years of this wicked lifestyle, to suddenly "see the light" (again?) and to repent, even at the point of death?

Would such a person be saved?[/quote]


Did they blaspheme the Holy Spirit?
Ruth

And specifically what does that mean: To "blaspheme the Holy Spirit".

Is it even possible for a saved person to do this?

John T wrote:Hi all,

The author of Hebrews wrote in Chap 6:4-6 (NIV):

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness in the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Realising that no one is perfect and that we are all sinners, how does the above statement apply to a one-time true believer who has drifted from the faith, preferring instead to lead a rather debaucherous life full of sin, but then following many years of this wicked lifestyle, to suddenly "see the light" (again?) and to repent, even at the point of death?

Would such a person be saved?

It is a hypothetical. There are arguments from some that this text is itself demonstrating a hypothetical situation in order to demonstrate that such a loss of salvation is not possible.

Some argue that is is possible for salvation to be lost, but as such it represents a radical "repentence" of the prior decision in such a manner and to such a degree that it is renounced, repudiated and rejected.

I suspect Ruth's comment is referring to the passage in Mark 3:28-29 "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Keep in mind that the context of that passage is Jesus responding to the Pharisees who have just accused Jesus of casting out demons by the devils own power.

Some take this concept and recognize the role of the Holy Spirit in both bringing people to salvation and maintaining their salvation as meaning that it is possible by blaspheming the Holy Spirit by casting Him out or ushering Him out to once and for all lose their salvation.

The implication appears to be that if this is done there is no Salvation remaining for such a person, nor would they have any inclination or interest having in effect seared their conscience and spirit.

It is not clear to me which position is correct. Nor is it clear to me that some other position might not exist which reconciles these elements in a manner that I am not familiar with.

It is clear to me however that salvation involves some mystery which is in turn tied into the mystery of the nature of God himself and so I am comfortable admitting I don't have all the answers in this situation.

Practically, I make it a point to treat the presence of God's Holy Spirit in my life as a result of my salvation Rom 8:9 with great respect. Further, I rely upon God's power to hold me to Him. I remind myself and others that if they still have the capacity or the inclination to care about the presence and work of the Holy Spirit then that is evidence in itself that apostacy has not occured. I prefer to walk in confidence and faith rather than fear and second guessing and I tend to believe God desires that for me as well.

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Hebrews 6:4-6

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John T wrote:
Hi all,

The author of Hebrews wrote in Chap 6:4-6 (NIV):

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness in the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Realising that no one is perfect and that we are all sinners, how does the above statement apply to a one-time true believer who has drifted from the faith, preferring instead to lead a rather debaucherous life full of sin, but then following many years of this wicked lifestyle, to suddenly "see the light" (again?) and to repent, even at the point of death?

Would such a person be saved?

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


It is a hypothetical. There are arguments from some that this text is itself demonstrating a hypothetical situation in order to demonstrate that such a loss of salvation is not possible.

Some argue that is is possible for salvation to be lost, but as such it represents a radical "repentence" of the prior decision in such a manner and to such a degree that it is renounced, repudiated and rejected.

I suspect Ruth's comment is referring to the passage in Mark 3:28-29 "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Keep in mind that the context of that passage is Jesus responding to the Pharisees who have just accused Jesus of casting out demons by the devils own power.

Some take this concept and recognize the role of the Holy Spirit in both bringing people to salvation and maintaining their salvation as meaning that it is possible by blaspheming the Holy Spirit by casting Him out or ushering Him out to once and for all lose their salvation.

The implication appears to be that if this is done there is no Salvation remaining for such a person, nor would they have any inclination or interest having in effect seared their conscience and spirit.

It is not clear to me which position is correct. Nor is it clear to me that some other position might not exist which reconciles these elements in a manner that I am not familiar with.

It is clear to me however that salvation involves some mystery which is in turn tied into the mystery of the nature of God himself and so I am comfortable admitting I don't have all the answers in this situation.

Practically, I make it a point to treat the presence of God's Holy Spirit in my life as a result of my salvation Rom 8:9 with great respect. Further, I rely upon God's power to hold me to Him. I remind myself and others that if they still have the capacity or the inclination to care about the presence and work of the Holy Spirit then that is evidence in itself that apostacy has not occured. I prefer to walk in confidence and faith rather than fear and second guessing and I tend to believe God desires that for me as well.
_________________
Get the facts, or the facts will get you. And when you get them, get them right, or they will get you wrong.

Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732

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In the Mark 3 passage, Yeshua adds in verse 30, "because they were saying, 'He has an unclean spirit'.
The "they" He was referencing, I believe, was verse 22, ""and the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, ' He has Beelzebub' and 'How can satan cast out satan?'.
So the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in this case, I believe, is to accuse Yeshua of being satan or having the spirit of satan or demons.
I could be wrong but it makes sense to me.

But probably the most important thing, in respect to the question origionally asked, is verse 28, "Assuredly I say to you that all sins will be forgiven the sons of men and also as many blasphemies they may utter except....".
So as long as the dieing person has not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, they can be forgiven if they repent and accept Yeshua as their Lord and Savior, I'm thinking.
Ruth

John T wrote:Hi all,

The author of Hebrews wrote in Chap 6:4-6 (NIV):

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness in the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Realising that no one is perfect and that we are all sinners, how does the above statement apply to a one-time true believer who has drifted from the faith, preferring instead to lead a rather debaucherous life full of sin, but then following many years of this wicked lifestyle, to suddenly "see the light" (again?) and to repent, even at the point of death?

Would such a person be saved?

I belive these verses are talking about the falling away from the Christian life. Not the faith. Hebrews 1:1 makes it clear that the author is talking about the life.

Thankyou all for your replies.

Personally, I believe the Holy Spirit to be the in-dwelling essence of God and which is also our protective "sheath" (if you like) against the intrusion of the worst kinds of evil.

To me, true repentence means to fully accept Jesus as one's saviour and friend and consequently the Holy Spirit, our Comforter, is freely given as a gift of Grace, which for the true believer is a one-time, one-off occurrence that leads to eternal life.

To reiterate (and analyse), the text from Hebrews 6: 4-6 says:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness in the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

I fully agree with the first part of this text ie;

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness in the word of God and the powers of the coming age,.." for the reasons mentioned above.

However, the second part can be a little worrying ie

"...if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

In my understanding, if one accepts Jesus as their true saviour, then the Holy spirit, being in-dwelling, makes the above statement to be an impossibility, because the Holy Spirit could never allow the worst kind of evil to intrude.

To elaborate;

"...if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence,"

In my opening post, I gave a hypothetical example of this ie to repeat;

"Realising that no one is perfect and that we are all sinners, how does the above statement apply to a one-time true believer who has drifted from the faith, preferring instead to lead a rather debaucherous life full of sin, but then following many years of this wicked lifestyle, to suddenly "see the light" (again?) and to repent, even at the point of death?"

The worst kind of sin as the Bible teaches is 'Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit', so the hypothetical person mentioned above who was a "one-time true believer" but who "drifted from the faith", has not and cannot commit this worst kind of sin, because despite his self-chosen wicked lifestyle, the Holy Spirit still remains in-dwelling.

Am I right?

I think that such a person would be made aware of his wickedness (through the in-dwelling Holy Spirit) and would from time to time ask (in secret) for forgiveness.

The last part of the text says:

"...to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

This too I see as an impossibility, because Jesus died for us all just once and the event can never be repeated.
(Also explains why there cannot be intelligent life on other worlds, because in order for them to be saved, Jesus would have to die repeatedly.)

In conclusion, I think that the entire text must pertain to unbelievers as a sort of dire warning.
This is to say, it applies to those who have "tasted the goodness of the word of God", even to the point of enlightenment through the Holy Spirit etc., but in themselves have never understood (and therefore could not truly believe what was actually written in the Scriptures), meaning they cannot make a second repentence..."to be brought back to repentence"..., because the first repentence to them was no repentence at all and was therefore false.

So it would seem to me that the text is written in hyperbole, but which contains an underlying warning to those who "think" they have repented, but in truth, have not.

A worrying passage of scripture (and thought) indeed!

Comments welcome.

Regards

John

John,

Your handling and approach to this passage is certainly in keeping with how many have seen it.

It is a troubling passage and at the very least it should serve as a sobering point of reference for any who would treat their salvation or the presence of the Holy Spirity with anything but the most grateful respect and appreciation.

Good to have you in our midst.

Bart

Canuckster1127 wrote:

John T wrote:Hi all,

The author of Hebrews wrote in Chap 6:4-6 (NIV):

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness in the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Realizing that no one is perfect and that we are all sinners, how does the above statement apply to a one-time true believer who has drifted from the faith, preferring instead to lead a rather debaucherious life full of sin, but then following many years of this wicked lifestyle, to suddenly "see the light" (again?) and to repent, even at the point of death?

Would such a person be saved?

It is a hypothetical. There are arguments from some that this text is itself demonstrating a hypothetical situation in order to demonstrate that such a loss of salvation is not possible.

Some argue that is possible for salvation to be lost, but as such it represents a radical "repentance" of the prior decision in such a manner and to such a degree that it is renounced, repudiated and rejected.

I suspect Ruth's comment is referring to the passage in Mark 3:28-29 "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Keep in mind that the context of that passage is Jesus responding to the Pharisees who have just accused Jesus of casting out demons by the devils own power.

Some take this concept and recognize the role of the Holy Spirit in both bringing people to salvation and maintaining their salvation as meaning that it is possible by blaspheming the Holy Spirit by casting Him out or ushering Him out to once and for all lose their salvation.

The implication appears to be that if this is done there is no Salvation remaining for such a person, nor would they have any inclination or interest having in effect seared their conscience and spirit.

It is not clear to me which position is correct. Nor is it clear to me that some other position might not exist which reconciles these elements in a manner that I am not familiar with.

It is clear to me however that salvation involves some mystery which is in turn tied into the mystery of the nature of God himself and so I am comfortable admitting I don't have all the answers in this situation.

Practically, I make it a point to treat the presence of God's Holy Spirit in my life as a result of my salvation Rom 8:9 with great respect. Further, I rely upon God's power to hold me to Him. I remind myself and others that if they still have the capacity or the inclination to care about the presence and work of the Holy Spirit then that is evidence in itself that apostasy has not occurred. I prefer to walk in confidence and faith rather than fear and second guessing and I tend to believe God desires that for me as well.

Canuckster1127, you have it correct, the Hebrews passage cited in this text is demonstrating a hypothetical situation in order to demonstrate that such a loss of salvation is not possible.

I have studied Greek for 20 plus years on my own. Note - this does not make me an expert on Greek but I have learned a thing or two. The Greek/grammar/tenses of text stress that, 'it is impossible for believers to fall away' because they would have to become born again and again and again and again everyday of the week due to sin - see 1 John 1:8-10. Thus crucify Christ again and again as text so states.

If a believer could lose his or her salvation then the blood of Christ, his sacrifice, was not sufficient to cleanse us from all sins. Thus, being born again would become a work one would have to do to stay saved, nullifying the grace of God, his character and his just nature. That is why it is impossible to lose one's salvation. People like to argue that a true believer in Christ can lose his or her salvation and end up instead putting Jesus and the work of the cross to an open shame. Was Jesus death on the cross sufficient to cleanse us from our sins or not?

Now read Hebrews 10:29. When one insults the Spirit of grace, how do the do so? They reject Christ's work on the Cross and what was that?

For clues look up these scriptures, John 11:25-26, John 14:16-18, John 14:26, John 16:7-16, and John 3:5-21. Therefore, blaspheming the Holy Spirit consist in what? Rejecting Christ and His work of giving the gift of God's Holy Spirit - Only a non-believer can do this.

Is John 10:28-29 true or not? Was Jesus lying when he spoke in this passage? What about Romans 8:37-39 — if nothing can separate us from God's love — how can you lose your salvation?

There are those that will reject God's work. They are not saved. There are those that are not truly born again, just as Jesus speaks of in Matthew 13:18-23. Never confuse those whom claim to have fallen away to have ever been saved. Some of these maybe going through a phase which in time will cause them to return to Jesus or reject him totally, only God knows the final outcomes of such people. Do not let them stumble your faith.

The Christian walk has its ups and downs, trials and tribulations, in these we are refined. A true believer learns the process of reflecting God's true nature and character in this life and its cost. It is a process. Press on. Note what Hebrews 11:1-40 tells us. It is a journey we are on to the new heavens and earth. No matter the doubts and fears that a true believer has, they will overcome. Jesus will never let you go no matter what some like to argue otherwise.

My faith is in Christ, not what others say — is yours? John 10:28-29, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." NIV

A true non-believer doesn't care about Jesus and seeks to remain unchanged and continue to live in such a manner that misuses God's nature and character to remain living a lie. Is that you? If so, it is not too late to change.

If you are not sure you are saved, once and for all, it is time to become born again, now and forever. You do not need to become born again and again and again but only once. The blood Christ Jesus shed for you is sufficient for you to become born again. From this you'll learn to truly live and find rest for your souls.

How? Just call on the name of the Lord! Ask to be made Born from Above by the breath of God's Spirit! A new journey awaits. Be not dismayed by its ups and downs or confounded by the journey's length; instead, be strengthened in the joy of knowing that Christ Jesus will never let you go.
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Hebrews is a beautiful book and it is sad that people will stop at this verse and turn it into something it is not. Hebrews speaks of a more perfect system. A more perfect sacrifice, and a more perfect High Priest. If the Old one was a better one, then God would not have given us this one. This one offers us access to God's throne through Jesus each moment of our lives whereas the old one brought atonement once a year.

If one looks closely at the text, we should notice that the person being spoken of is not brought to repentence. As long as we are willing to repent, we have nothing to worry about because we have not reached that sad state.

Secondly, the context itself offers hope. For it tells the story of a plant that receives rain. If it continues to bring thorns and briers, it is "NOT FAR FROM A CURSE" and its end WOULD be a burning. These words and phrases still offer the plant a chance to stop growing thorns and is not completely cursed yet. Saying IT IS NOT FAR FROM A CURSE means that it is NOT CURSED YET. Saying its end "WOULD" be a burning also is differnent than stating it IS aleady destined to be burned. Verses 7 and 8 read: (I use the Peshitta)

07 For the earth that drinketh the rain which cometh often upon it, and produceth the herb that is of use to those for whom it is cultivated, receiveth a blessing from God.
08 But if it should put forth thorns and briers, it would have reprobation, and be not far from a curse, and its end would be a burning.

Jesus told us that if our brother sins against us up to 70 X 7 times in a day and repents, we must forgive him. God would not tell us to do something that He could not do himself. His mercy is much greater than ours. We can rest in that knowledge.

Here is the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage in the New Century Version

4 Some people cannot be brought back again to a changed life. They were once in God's light, and enjoyed heaven's gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 They found out how good God's word is, and they received the powers of his new world. 6 But they fell away from Christ. It is impossible to bring them back to a changed life again, because they are nailing the Son of God to a cross again and are shaming him in front of others.

Could the key words here "be brought back to a changed life"? Could it be that a true believer can stray so far from God that he can't be used for Him anymore?

Just a thought.

FFC wrote:Here is the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage in the New Century Version

4 Some people cannot be brought back again to a changed life. They were once in God's light, and enjoyed heaven's gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 They found out how good God's word is, and they received the powers of his new world. 6 But they fell away from Christ. It is impossible to bring them back to a changed life again, because they are nailing the Son of God to a cross again and are shaming him in front of others.

Could the key words here "be brought back to a changed life"? Could it be that a true believer can stray so far from God that he can't be used for Him anymore?

Just a thought.

You have it exactly right, FFC. The issue is being renewed to repentance, not losing salvation. The idea is that if someone totally falls away, then no amount of counseling or church discipline will bring them back. Therefore, if they continue in this path, they will be "burned." In that culture - and even today - if a field became unusable due to thorns and weeds, farmers would burn the field totally. This would allow them to effectively start over. The author of Hebrews is saying the same thing here. If a Christian falls so far away that he rejects his faith, then by definition, there is nothing the Church can do to bring him back, therefore, God will harshly discipline him so as to break him, that the work of sanctification may begin anew.

Not suprisingly, this is the same lesson of Heb. 10. There, if a person who was once sanctified (by definition, a Christian) rejects Christ, then there is no sacrifice left for his sins. Christians, of course, sin daily, and we repent and return to God to reestablish fellowship, but we can do this only because of the cross. If, then, we reject our faith, then we have no way to return to God. What is left, then? Only discipline - a fire of fury that will consume the enemies of God. Therefore, we are to hold fast to our faith, which has a great reward.

Hebrews is very consistent. It is book written to warn Christians - in context, Jewis Christians - against abandoning their faith. If we hold fast, we are rewarded. If we reject our faith, we are scourged and disciplined.

God bless