Evidence for God from Science

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

I have always believed that the partaking of the bread and wine at communion was something that Christians observe and do to remember Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Is it possible that bread and wine literally turn into the body and blood of Christ as those who believe in "the real presence" believe.

For those who believe in Transubstantiation and consubstantiation, where are the scriptures to back this up?

FFC wrote:Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

I have always believed that the partaking of the bread and wine at communion was something that Christians observe and do to remember Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Is it possible that bread and wine literally turn into the body and blood of Christ as those who believe in "the real presence" believe.

For those who believe in Transubstantiation and consubstantiation, where are the scriptures to back this up?

Hi FFC,

Here are 2 Catholic links with extensive scriptural support for the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The first one is extremely detailed but I found it very hard to follow (it reads like a master's thesis). I like the second because not only does it explain the Eucharist scripturally (and beautifully I might add), but also shows the link to the animal sacrifice and passover as related to the events from the last supper to the crucifixion. It also offers yet an additional meaning to 'it is finished'. Well worth the read.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/a ... p0092.html

Here's a link on consubstatiation.

http://www.gotquestions.org/consubstantiation.html

This link gives a reasonable overview of the scope of positions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Presence

In terms of my position, I hold that there is no physical change in the elements, and no real spiritual sense of Christ's presence in the elements. The presence of Christ is already in the believer and the benefit is spiritual in terms of obedience to the command of Christ to remember Him in this manner. Further it is an event that demonstrates and strengthens the communion of fellow believers which is why we do this together rather than individually.

I can expound more if necessary.

Actually .... who am I kidding .... you guys know me well enough by now .... I can expound more even if it is NOT necessary ....

Interestingly (to me) this thread has appeared while I have been following a similar discussion on another forum, that of the UK based Anglican Mainstream (orthodox Church of England).

My own position is somewhere a little less sure than the Roman Catholic belief in transubstantiation but not quite the protestant view that I think Canuckster holds.

For what it is worth, here is my own two pennyworth, for whatever two pennies are worth these days.

First and foremost, I find myself pondering the question "when is a metaphor not a metaphor?"

I was taught that Jesus often spoke of himself in metaphor, and given as examples were (John 6:35) "I am the bread of life." and (John 8:12) "I am the light of the world..." and (John 15:5) "I am the vine; you are the branches..." He also said (John 14:6) "I am the way and the truth and the life..." and (John 10:11) "I am the good shepherd." and (John 11:25) "I am the resurrection and the life."

But are any of these just metaphors in the usual literary sense, or could they have become something more than that - a metaphor plus, something that one might call a mystery, a sacred mystery? This is what I mean...

When I think of Jesus saying that He is the Good Shepherd, I really do think of Him as just that - among many other things as well. The psalmist wrote "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want" and I fully embrace those words as being the case for me too. We are told that Jesus is the Word made flesh - He really is that as well. He is the Truth, the Life, the Bread of Life - all of those things. How emphatically do you proclaim Jesus to be "the Truth"? Maybe this is not just a metaphor, but the metaphor plus.

Jesus said (Luke 22:19) "This is my body given for you" and yet He was right there before being crucified, still physically intact. So it seems that this is just a metaphor. But the more I ponder on this, the more I see it as yet another case of the metaphor becoming a sacred mystery. My thinking goes something like this:

(1 Corinthians 13:12) Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. (NIV)

So much that is spiritual is, this side of heaven, something that is discerned only in part - as a poor reflection in a mirror. Even the fact of my own "justification through faith by the grace of God" is something that I believe to be a reality as, by the imputation of Christ's own righteousness, my relationship with the Father is restored. But while I am imputed with Christ's righteousness, I am still a sinner and keep doing unrighteous things no matter how hard I try to do otherwise. This side of heaven, my righteousness is nothing more than that poor reflection of the true reality that in faith I claim. So it seems to me that imputation is very much a spiritual process, that which can make a metaphor become the metaphor plus, and is nothing less than a sacred mystery.

When I have taken the cup and sipped of it, my physical sensory nerves can detect the taste of wine - not of blood. So the ingredients in the cup is, to my physical self, still those of wine - and of the bread, still those of bread rather than that of a meaty tissue. But spiritually I discern something far more, recalling those words of Christ, and can accept that in some way these substances are different from the ordinary by their spiritual imputation with other characteristics, those of Christ.

So the whole thing to me has many layers of belief and understanding. I have no doubt of Christ's presence because underlying any discernment of Real Presence are already His words (Matthew 18: 20) "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." (NIV)

There are a great many things that I do not understand fully, if any of us can this side of heaven anyway, and therefore I choose to remain somewhat agnostic in as much that I simply don't know. I am not a theologian so do not have the benefit of that kind of study. I feel uncomfortable with the Roman Catholic idea that transubstantiation is a definite fact, just as I do that maybe it is not and that our celebration of the Last Supper is just a memorial and (besides the fellowship with others) nothing else.

So for me I will keep my options open on this matter, but I do know for certain - through faith - that there is something very special about what I know as Holy Communion, and that it is a sacrament of the Church, rich in meaning, a sacred mystery, at whichever layer of belief and understanding it is spiritually discerned.

I was raised a Catholic by well meaning parents until about 8-9 years old. Before I 'made' my 'holy communion,' and while I was quite young, seeing every one else going forward one Sunday morning to receive communion, I too went forward. The priest reluctantly put the unleavened wafer on my little tongue.

Immediately, because of the weird and distasteful 'thing' in my mouth, I made a bee-line for the rear exit. Once outside, I spit the wafer out of my mouth and on to the grass.

Did I spit the literal 'body of Christ' onto the lawn?

Oh my goodness, Kerux, I think the answer depends on whether you believe as does a Roman Catholic, or as an Anglican, or as a Protestant.

Personally, I really can understand your reaction.

I hate it when the wafer sometimes glues itself firmly to the roof of my mouth and causes my tongue to perform convoluted gymnastics in an attempt to budge it. That doesn't seem very dignified and reverent either. I need a bigger gulp of the wine to help wash it off, but that would be frowned on as quite greedy, I fear.

When children take themselves up to the communion rail it is probably better that the priest simply places a hand on their head and gives them a blessing. I have heard of them doing that, and it would certainly have saved putting you through such an awkward experience at the time.

So, what do you think is the answer to your question?

There is something else that could need some consideration, and that is the element of faith that one has in the "mystery" of the sacrament (if you are RC or maybe Anglican) - and as a child who did not really understand all these things, your lack of faith in what the wafer became then altered the equation.
And if you believe as a Protestant, then I guess you just participated incompletely, in a rather novel way, in a remembrance celebration.

Oh my goodness, Kerux, I think the answer depends on whether you believe as does a Roman Catholic, or as an Anglican, or as a Protestant.

I tell that story to show how ridiculous the idea is that a human 'priest,' by saying some words in Latin, [or any language] can actually change a wafer or bread and wine into the literal body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and then let some young child spit Jesus Christ out on the ground.

And what we believe has nothing whatsoever to do with what is the reality. The reality is no matter what we think.

Kerux wrote: And what we believe has nothing whatsoever to do with what is the reality. The reality is no matter what we think.

On the contrary, what one believes may indeed be the reality - or it may be not.
I believe Jesus was crucified. There is a great deal of evidence to support that my belief is reality.

With regards to objective truth, reality exists as it does regardless of what I think about it - just as you say.

But how does one know just what is spiritual reality?
These are often matters of faith, are they not?

The Christian claims to know that God reveals His love for us by giving His only begotten Son to die on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.
The non-Christian says "What nonsense, that is not so at all."
Which is reality? If you can decide, how did you do so?

My point was/is that even if there is evidence to support your belief that Jesus was crucified, whether you believe that evidence or not has absolutely no bearing upon the reality of his crucifixion itself.

Your belief in Christ's resurrection may affect your reality, ie, you live your life according to your belief; but again, whether you believe Jesus was crucified or not does not affect the reality that it did indeed happen.

To apply that to the symbols of the bread and wine: No matter how many people or what religion think/believe about the symbols of the bread/wine, in no way does that belief affect the reality of the physical bread and wine.

[On another vein, not being able to accept reality for what it is is often the basis of many aspects of mental illness].

Kerux wrote:My point was/is that even if there is evidence to support your belief that Jesus was crucified, whether you believe that evidence or not has absolutely no bearing upon the reality of his crucifixion itself.

Your belief in Christ's resurrection may affect your reality, ie, you live your life according to your belief; but again, whether you believe Jesus was crucified or not does not affect the reality that it did indeed happen.

To apply that to the symbols of the bread and wine: No matter how many people or what religion think/believe about the symbols of the bread/wine, in no way does that belief affect the reality of the physical bread and wine.

[On another vein, not being able to accept reality for what it is is often the basis of many aspects of mental illness].

I tend to agree with Kerux on this.

I do think there is a personal element in communion in which belief can contribute toward its own reality.

I do not believe any physical or spiritual change in the elements takes place at communion.

There are times however, when I am concerned that that view can contribute to a cavalier attitude toward communion that fails to honor Christ as highly as some of the "higher views" may.

That is a matter of personal reverence however.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

Kerux wrote:My point was/is that even if there is evidence to support your belief that Jesus was crucified, whether you believe that evidence or not has absolutely no bearing upon the reality of his crucifixion itself.

Your belief in Christ's resurrection may affect your reality, ie, you live your life according to your belief; but again, whether you believe Jesus was crucified or not does not affect the reality that it did indeed happen.

To apply that to the symbols of the bread and wine: No matter how many people or what religion think/believe about the symbols of the bread/wine, in no way does that belief affect the reality of the physical bread and wine.

[On another vein, not being able to accept reality for what it is is often the basis of many aspects of mental illness].

I tend to agree with Kerux on this.

I do think there is a personal element in communion in which belief can contribute toward its own reality.

I do not believe any physical or spiritual change in the elements takes place at communion.

There are times however, when I am concerned that that view can contribute to a cavalier attitude toward communion that fails to honor Christ as highly as some of the "higher views" may.

That is a matter of personal reverence however.

I agree as well but how do we interpret this passage?

Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?


Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.


Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

The passages quoted are obviously, on their face, refering to spiritual or symbolic bread, flesh, wine, etc.

Surely, you don't think Jesus Christ said we would eat of his flesh like we would a chicken wing?

Jesus also said

Joh 15:5

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Surely, you don't think Jesus Christ was saying he was a physical vine? If so, are you a branch?

Christ also said

Joh 10:11

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Are you a sheep?

Surely, you don't think Jesus Christ said we would eat of his flesh like we would a chicken wing?

Now you're getting me hungry.

Jesus also said

Joh 15:5

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Surely, you don't think Jesus Christ was saying he was a physical vine? If so, are you a branch?

Christ also said

Joh 10:11

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Are you a sheep?

Sometimes I feel like it.

Good to see some here have a sense of humor.

Kerux wrote:Good to see some here have a sense of humor.

Hey, that wasn't baaaaaahd!