Islam and Jihad

[Gman]

I've been reading a real good book lately by Mustafa A. Gariel PHD. called "Islam and Terrorism" that has been really helping me lately to understand the muslim's view of salvation and why jihad (or holy war) can take center stage in a battle. Mustafa or now Mark, a former muslim, graduated from Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt and was a prominent teacher of the Quran until one day he converted to Christianity.

Before his conversion however, he narrowly escaped with his own life having his own father and others chase him down with knives and guns. And you think you had it hard..

More about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_A._Gabriel

Here is a brief overview (and quotes) of his book "Islam and Terrorism", and why jihad can be such a driving force for a follower..

A Religion Based on Works.

Muslims require faith and works such as the Five Pillars of Islam, (their duties or obligations of faith). The Five Pillars of Islam are the core beliefs that shape Muslim thought, deed, and society. A Muslim who fulfills the Five Pillars of Islam, remains in the faith of Islam, and sincerely repents of his sins, will make it to Jannah (paradise). If he performs the Five Pillars but does not remain in the faith, he will not be saved.

The Five Pillars are the following:

1. Shahadah: The declaration of faith
2. Salat: Prayer (performed five times a day facing towards Mecca...)
3. Zakat: Charity or concern for the needy
4. Saum: Fasting during Ramadan or self-purification
5. Hajj: The pilgrimage to Mecca.

"Why is it so important that Muslims do what Allah wants? It's because Islam is a religion of works. Entrance to Paradise (heaven) must be earned. The sad part is that Muslims can never have assurance of salvation. When they die, they believe that they go to the grave, where they await their judgment at resurrection day. When judgment day comes, Allah weighs the good works and the bad works and decides their fate.

Then as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be heavy, he will live a pleasant life (in Paradise). But as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be light, he will have his home in Hawiyah (pit, i.e., Hell). Surah 101:6-9, QURAN

There is no guarantee of Paradise even if you do good works all your life. It all depends on what Allah decides.

A Guaranteed Entrance to Paradise.

There is only one way to guarantee entrance into Paradise and this makes the perfect motive for suicide bombers and jihad fighters. The only way to know for sure that you will get into Paradise is to die in jihad-to die while fighting the enemy of Islam.

Jihad simply means that Muslims must fight the enemy of Allah until the enemies die or the Muslims die. The word jihad actually means "struggle." Jihad has even been defined in legal terms by Islamic fiqh as follows:

[Jihad] is fighting anybody who stands in the way of spreading Islam. Or fighting anyone who refuses to enter into Islam (based on Surah 8:39).

Simply put, if you die in jihad, you don't even have to go to the grave and wait for judgment; you go directly to Paradise. Jihad is really a legal contract between Allah and the Muslim. If the Muslim fights, Allah rewards him in the afterlife.

Let those (believers) who sell the life of this world for the Here after fight in the Cause of Allah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward. Surah 4:74, QURAN

In reference to those who fight jihad, the Quran also says:

For them Allah has got ready Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success. Surah 9:89,QURAN

Also when a person dies in jihad, a different burial procedure is followed. After a regular person dies, his body is washedand dressed nicely, as if going to the mosque. When a person dies in jihad, his body is not washed or given clean clothes. That person goes into the coffin just as he died. The blood is a witness for him in front of Allah-a sign of honor. Muslims believe the angels will treat him as a special person to Allah.

Western media have poked fun at the Muslim understanding of Paradise (heaven)-virgins for men to enjoy and so forth-but it is much more significant to recognize that dying in jihad is the only way a Muslim can be assured of entering Paradise at all. This is why you see Muslims leaving their own nations to fight jihad in other countries. Their motivation is religious, which is much more dangerous than a political motivation."

Hope this helps in the understanding of jihad as it has helped me. Please remember, this is not a direct attack on Muslims. I'm only pointing some of the doctrine of the Quran and why it can be dangerous to both muslims and non-muslims...

G -

[Judah]

I also wholeheartedly recommend Mark Gabriel as a writer with authentic credentials who will give you the truth on matters to do with Islam.

Another of his books well worth reading is Islam and the Jews.

More info on Mark Gabriel:

* Raised in Egypt to be a devout Muslim and able to recite the entire Qur'an at an early age.

* Bachelor's, master's, and doctorate degrees in Islamic History and Culture from the prestigious Islamic Al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt, graduating second in his class of six thousand students for his bachelor's degree.

* He was one of the youngest lecturers ever hired at Al-Azhar University.

* He started lecturing after he finished his master's degree and was working to finish his doctorate. The university sent him as a travelling lecturer to countries around the Middle East to lecture in Islamic history.

* He also served as the imam at a mosque in the Cairo suburbs.

* When Gabriel began questioning the Qur'an he was kidnapped, imprisoned and tortured by the Egyptian Secret Police, denounced by his own family who attempted to kill him, and was forced to flee to South Africa.

* Later Gabriel (who abandoned his Arabic name for his personal safety) became a Christian and pursued a Christian education which included:
~ Discipleship Training School with Youth With A Mission in Cape Town, South Africa;
~ Master's degree in World Religion from Florida Christian University in Orlando, Florida (2001);
~ Doctorate degree in Christian Education from Florida Christian University in Orland, Florida (2002);
~ Induction as a fellow in the Oxford Society of Scholars, September 2003.

One of the problems today regarding knowledge of Islam is that Islamic clerics will want you to believe that "real" Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Dr Gabriel explains in his books about the practice of “taqiya” (”al-taqiya” or “taqaiyya”).

This is the principle of “holy hypocrisy” (taqiyya) whereby lying is condoned to hide malevalent intent. By this practise a Muslim may conceal his true intentions in the interests of progressing the cause of Islam. Islamic universities and imans in their mosques teach that the ultimate goal expressed in the Qur'an is world domination with Islam as the sole religion. Such a goal will be strenuously denied by imans to hide the true nature of Islam, but it is written in the Qur'an and it is taught as true doctrine.

Where Muslims are in the minority they are to practice taqiya in order to get on with their neighbours. It happens that many Muslims actually prefer to live peaceably and lead ordinary lives, uncommitted to jihad (holy war) and the violent Medina surahs (verses in the Qur'an), choosing to follow the Islam of the more peaceful Mecca period. They ignore the principle of nasikh whereby the peaceful surahs are abrogated by the later violent ones, and are often labelled apostates by their more devout brothers. By doing so, these Muslims show the face of Islam to be the peaceful religion that they sincerely but wrongfully claim it to be, and so help to give confusing messages regarding the real voice of Islam. But as the number and strength of devout Muslims build, and their leaders find greater opportunities to influence, there will be increasing pressure applied to all Muslims to practice their faith fully and become organized to take up the call to physical jihad. The sword of Islam is to be felt eventually by all nonbelievers, and for Muslims, to die in jihad is to be received immediately into Paradise with it's promised eternal carnal rewards.

[Gman]

Hi Judah,

Thanks for the reply...

There seems to be alot of confusion regarding the integrity of these verses (above). I had a little argument today with someone who claimed that these suicides for paradise were not from the Quran... When I showed him the verses he said, "No I don't want to look at them, they are not true..."

I think Mark Gabriel is credible... In fact he says that he use to be a teacher of the Quran at Al-Azhar University in Cairo Egypt. He actually use to teach this stuff to the students there... It was actually integrated into their studies there. And then he was booted off campus (and almost killed) when he started teaching against jihad for paradise..

Judah, is that what you see from the teachings too?

Why are these terrorist plots happening here today?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14278216/?GT1=8404

Thanks,
G -

[Judah]

Gman, I am often gobsmacked that people will deny what is objective reality and refuse to believe something exists when you can present concrete evidence as you did those Qu'ranic verses.

Mark Gabriel is definitely credible. He was an Islamic cleric himself, as well as a Professor of Islamic history and culture at one of Egypt's most prestigious Islamic universities. He knew every verse of the Qu'ran from memory, and understood it intelligently as well.

I have collected up a great many resources for general information and education regarding Islam, and have posted them on my own website here. I will shortly be revising and updating them, but if you are interested in learning more about what this is all about, you might like to visit. There are many links to other sites, all of them credible as well, which will give you plenty of more food for thought.

Why are these terrorist plots happening in the Western world?

Islam has an agenda. The name Islam means submission, and that is submission to Allah. All people in this world - including you and me and every other living human being - must be made to submit to the will of Allah, and to worship only him. This is the Islamic "divine commission", and if people refuse to submit to Allah, then they must be forced to do so - or else be killed.

These acts of terrorism are Islam flexing it's muscles. We are to be "subdued" by fear, to realize that Islam is powerful and will conquer, and that Allah will have everyone submit to him.

There is a strategy behind all this.

Here are some words from Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, raised as a Muslim but a convert to Christianity, and who is the International Director of the Barnabas Fund and the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity.
Dr Sookhdeo holds a PhD from the School of Oriental and African Studies, London University and was awarded a Doctor of Divinity by Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon for his work in the field of pluralism. He has written and lectures widely in the field of other faiths.

In 1980 the Islamic Council of Europe published a book called Muslim Communities in Non-Muslim States which clearly explained the Islamic agenda in Europe.

When Muslims live as a minority they face theological problems, because classical Islamic teaching always presupposed a context of Islamic dominance; hence the need for guidance on how to live in non-Muslim states. The instructions given in the book told Muslims to get together and organise themselves with the aim of establishing a viable Muslim community based on Islamic principles. This is the duty of every individual Muslim living within a non-Muslim political entity. They should set up mosques, community centres and Islamic schools. At all costs they must avoid being assimilated by the majority. In order to resist assimilation, they must group themselves geographically, forming areas of high Muslim concentration within the population as a whole. Yet they must also interact with non-Muslims so as to share the message of Islam with them. Every Muslim individual is required to participate in the plan; it is not allowed for anyone simply to live as a “good Muslim” without assisting the overall strategy. The ultimate goal of this strategy is that the Muslims should become a majority and the entire nation be governed according to Islam.

(M. Ali Kettani “The Problems of Muslim Minorities and their Solutions” in Muslim Communities in Non-Muslim States
(London: Islamic Council of Europe, 1980) pp.96-105

Source: As Eye See It : THE ISLAMIZATION OF EUROPE - by Patrick Sookhdeo

Do visit the other sites I have linked to from my own, there being a wealth of information there just for the looking. It is very scary stuff.

[Gman]

Hi Judah,

Yes, I've seen your website before, I think you've done a very good job.. Thanks for the help.. It looks like you've studied this a bit more than me..

I guess where I'm confused is that does every muslim believe in this type of jihad for paradise? Are there differnet types of belief systems about this (like in Christianity) or just different types of believers?

It looks like Mark defined the muslim believers into three differnet categories. Secular, traditional and fundamental. I appears that some view the Quran jihad teachings as spiritual warfare, where as others view them as physical warfare. It does seem however that the fundamentalist muslims are the real one's practicing the true faith, (at least from what Mark says)... If so, they are the only real one's we should be aware of. Is this your take on this too? It appears from your previous post that you do... Anyways, here is a quote from his book "Islam and Terrorism".

Do all muslims really believe all this?

This is a very good question. At this point, Westerners may be wondering if their Muslim neighbors are a part of a plot to overthrow their government. To answer this question, we must recognize that there are different kinds of Muslims, just as there are different kinds of Christians.

The secular Muslims
This is a good description of Muslims all over the world. They believe in the nice parts of Islam, but they reject the call to jihad. They take on the cultural trappings of the message, but they are not living it out completely. These Muslims may be very dedicated to their system of thought, even though it does not represent true Islam. The majority of Muslims around the world-both in the East and in the West-fall into this category.

The traditional Muslims
There are two types of traditional Muslims. The first type includes people who study Islam, know it and practice it, but they have a stumbling block with the concept of jihad. Some consider jihad to be a spiritual battle, like the Muslim Sufism movement.

The second type includes people who know that jihad is fighting non-Muslims, but they do not take action because 1) they do not have the ability to do it by themselves, 2) they are concerned about what would happen to their lives, family and children if they join a fundamentalist group, or 3) they want to live a nice life on earth instead of dying.

The fundamentalist Muslims
These are the ones who perpetrate terrorism. They sometimes have the long beards and head coverings. Their goal is to practice Islam as Muhammad did. Though we call them radicals, they are practicing true Islam.

[Judah]

Christian2 knows much more about Islam than I do. His responses here would be most worthwhile.

As I understand it, there are indeed different interpretations of Islamic doctrine just as we have different denominations within Christianity. The academic types debate points back and forth just as it happens among Christians. Different emphasis is given to the nature of jihad, some considering it more of a spiritual struggle and others more of the physical struggle that we get caught up in at the hands of the "radical fundamentalist" ones. There are also a great many ordinary folk in the general Muslim population who probably don't know much at all of what is written in their Qur'ans - just as a great many nominal Christians are woefully ignorant of Scripture. However, all main schools of Islamic doctrine accept the principle of naskh, or abrogation, as fundamental to a correct interpretation. This confirms that the bottom line still remains the same - the agenda of bringing about universal submission to Allah, eventually with death intended for those who resist.

I find Mark Gabriel's separation of types of Muslims to be helpful, but only to a certain extent - or for the present time if things are going smoothly.

In this country (New Zealand) we do not have a problem with our Muslim population - they are proportionally very small, and the few that I know appear not to be very interested in pushing Islam but just want to get along peaceably with everyone else. Probably these are Mark Gabriel's "secular Muslims". When they do say anything publicly about Islam, they push the "religion of peace and tolerance" line and quote only the earlier surahs from the Mecca period. Knowing what I do about what is in the Qur'an, I find that quite troubling - and deceiving.
My husband's doctor is a Muslim and the most gentle, caring and compassionate person, one I have great difficulty thinking of in terms of OBL and his henchmen. Do they actually believe the same Islam? How can I know, except my experience of this doctor does not testify to the hard truth of what I read in the Qur'an. In that, Mark Gabriel's categories make a great deal of sense.

The problem I do have with those categories is that we could be lulled into a dangerous sense of complacency.

In Britain for instance, after publication of the infamous Danish Mohammad cartoons, there were so many demonstrations with placard-waving of violent hate messages, and the interesting questions "where are the moderate (secular) Muslims? why don't they intervene?" did not see an answer.

Secular Muslims do not side against the more radical or fundamentalist ones. Why not? If they believe in their Mecca surahs and ignore the Medina ones, why are they not standing up against the hatred and aggression and physical jihad, etc?
The answer - they are often intimidated and afraid to do so. And their choice to ignore the Medina surahs does not stand up theologically. Come the time, they too will be forced (by the sword if necessary) to assume the full gospel of Allah. There is the brotherhood of Muslims - just as there is with Christians. So underneath it all, if their faith can be "activated" to resemble more closely the correctly interpreted Islam of the fundamentalists, are they really much different?

Dr Sookhedeo comments on that too.

Every Muslim individual is required to participate in the plan; it is not allowed for anyone simply to live as a “good Muslim” without assisting the overall strategy.

Another thing to consider is the principle of taqiyya, or holy hypocrisy, which I have already mentioned. A secular Muslim lives his life peaceably because he can do so, but what attitudes and real beliefs might he be covering up? I don't know. I hate the way this puts every secular Muslim under suspicion, but that is what this Islamic principle does for Islam. I was told recently by an American woman who lived for many years in Saudi Arabia of her experiences socializing with neighbouring Muslim women. They all seemed to be friends, but one Muslim woman told her "Yes, we are friends at this moment, but if called upon to do so, I would kill you in the next moment without hesitation." Oh wow, what kind of friendship is that? Just how safe is it to trust a believer in Islam?

[Gman]

The problem I do have with those categories is that we could be lulled into a dangerous sense of complacency.

In Britain for instance, after publication of the infamous Danish Mohammad cartoons, there were so many demonstrations with placard-waving of violent hate messages, and the interesting questions "where are the moderate (secular) Muslims? why don't they intervene?" did not see an answer.

Actually the more I think about it, you may have a point there... I certainly don't see a Muslims for Jews organization out there like Jews and Christians orgs. However, there is a sec of muslim druze out there that stand up for Israel. Even a few of the Israeli druze soldeirs were captured by the Arabs. These druze however seem more or less like muslim mystics than true muslims (like the sufi's)...

More about them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze

Secular Muslims do not side against the more radical or fundamentalist ones. Why not? If they believe in their Mecca surahs and ignore the Medina ones, why are they not standing up against the hatred and aggression and physical jihad, etc?
The answer - they are often intimidated and afraid to do so. And their choice to ignore the Medina surahs does not stand up theologically. Come the time, they too will be forced (by the sword if necessary) to assume the full gospel of Allah. There is the brotherhood of Muslims - just as there is with Christians. So underneath it all, if their faith can be "activated" to resemble more closely the correctly interpreted Islam of the fundamentalists, are they really much different?

That seems all too true.... Whatever happens, it appears that our secular world does not care or even want to examine the root of the problem here. It seems apparent to me if you just read the Quran, you really start to understand the motivation of some of the believers... Oh well.. Who cares..

G -

[Judah]

I have just watched the hour-long video "Relentless" which tells the story of Israel and Palestine from the 1948 creation of Israel onwards, including the Oslo Agreement and how the terms were violated.

The unrelenting intention behind every action on the part of the Islam-driven parties involved is the total eradication of Jews, as per the Qur'an, in the name of Muhammad and submission to Allah. This attitude is pure Qur'an.

Throughout this video presentation you see exactly what Islam is all about - and it is harrowing. What you see you may well find offensive, such as the brainwashed children who tell interviewers that "martyrdom is beautiful" and "why stand in the entrance to Paradise when you can walk right in" and that they will become martyrs (suicide bombers) "because we will not be children forever" (and Paradise is forever).

Yes, there are Muslims who have a conscience that allows them to consider ideals of peace and love and the fact that Jews are human, not swine or apes, but they are in grave danger of assassination by their Muslim brothers if they disclose these worthier views - and if they dare act on their views, their life expectancy becomes zilch.

[Gman]

Judah, I have just watched the video. Wow, thank you I'm going to bookmark it...

It seems that the video struck at the heart of the problem and that is the removal of the Jewish people from the lands of Isreal, and the Jews themselves. In fact in the Hadith it claims that there can be no peace anywhere in the world until the last Jew has been killed. To me this means that even if they don't live in the land of Israel they are a marked target. They are no where safe in this world... I guess the name Israel really does mean struggle... Ouch.

It's a shame too, because whenever Israel gives up land, the land is only used for more missle launches into Israel. They supply guns to the PA police, and instead the guns are used against them. It seems that peace to them is a weakness in their minds.. A no win situation for Israelis...

I know this isn't a laughing matter, but it appears that the Bible gave us some foreknowledge about the decendants of Ishmael and Isaac, or our present day Muslims and Jews... Apparently, Ishmael (the older brother and son of Hagar and Abraham) was to be a "wild donkey" and his hand will be against every man. Isaac on the other hand, was born to Sarah and Abraham and recieved the legitimate birthright from God.. What this is really saying here is that these two are really HALF brothers.. Apparentally the decendants of Isaac are known as the Jews today and Ishmael's decendants are today known as the modern Muslims... Here is more from Genisis 16:7-12

7 The angel of Yahweh found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

8 He said, "Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, where did you come from? Where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from the face of my mistress Sarai."

9 The angel of Yahweh said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hands."

10 The angel of Yahweh said to her, "I will greatly multiply your seed, that they will not be numbered for multitude."

11 The angel of Yahweh said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and will bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because Yahweh has heard your affliction.

12 He will be like a wild donkey among men. His hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him. He will live opposite all of his brothers."

If this is true, then perhaps there is really not much to do to stop this jihad movement since it is ingrained into them. Perhaps this could be another reason for jihad, perhaps I'm wrong too..

G -

[Judah]

This is turning into a day of videos for me!

Here is another one that is a "must see" also.
It is an interview with the amazing Lebanese Christian, Brigitte Gabriel.
Video Interview

This video complements beautifully the one titled "Relentless".
It is 45 minutes long but well worth taking the time - an extended coffee break, perhaps? - to watch it.

Brigitte gave a speech titled "Because They Hate" to the Intelligence Summit in Washington, DC, back in February, and excepts of her speech can be found here.

{clip} ... I was ten years old when my home exploded around me, burying me under the rubble and leaving me to drink my blood to survive, as the perpetrators shouted “Allah Akbar!” My only crime was that I was a Christian living in a Christian town. At 10 years old, I learned the meaning of the word "infidel."

I had a crash course in survival. Not in the Girl Scouts, but in a bomb shelter where I lived for seven years in pitch darkness, freezing cold, drinking stale water and eating grass to live. At the age of 13 I dressed in my burial clothes going to bed at night, waiting to be slaughtered. By the age of 20, I had buried most of my friends--killed by Muslims. We were not Americans living in New York, or Britons in London. We were Arab Christians living in Lebanon.

As a victim of Islamic terror, I was amazed when I saw Americans waking up on September 12, 2001, and asking themselves "Why do they hate us?" The psychoanalyst experts were coming up with all sort of excuses as to what did we do to offend the Muslim World. But if America and the West were paying attention to the Middle East they would not have had to ask the question. Simply put, they hate us because we are defined in their eyes by one simple word: "infidels."

Gman, I think there really is something in what you are saying about Isaac and Ishmael and how this is all panning out for us today.
Sometimes it is really hard to keep sight of the fact that God, in the words of the song, "has the whole world in his hand" - but it pays not to forget that is surely true regardless of the terrible escalating mess we are in.

[Aviatrix]

Y'all are "funny" in a sad, pitiful sort of way.

"Mark Gabriel, PhD." Yeah, right. A cleric? Yeah, don't he wish he could get in to Al-Azhar, much less teach there. A hafidh? Strange that he can't remember it. I guess next you guys will say that Muslims think the earth is flat. Man, y'all believe anything.

This is Shaytaan--rebellion.

When the world, when the God-fearing people of the world (I mean you), want to see a secular world instead of a religious one. When you want secular Muslims instead of devout ones.

I don't want to be around secular Christians. They drink, gamble, engage in illicit sex. Would you all (who I am assuming to be generally devout Christians) want your children around those kinds of people who don't fear God and engage in all sorts of filthy pleasures in this world? That's secularism.

I'd much rather be around people who take religion seriously, whatever their religion is.

I am a fundamentalist Muslim. Why? Because I try to uphold the fundamentals of the religion. I try to live the Qur'an, follow the Sunnah. I try to follow God over my own selfish desires, and seek His help against the temptations of this world.

You shouldn't be afraid of fundamentalists. (Naturally, I disagree with "Mr. Gabriel's" half-baked assessment of Muslims.)

Islam is not a religion of works. Everytime you see in the Qur'an what a good Muslim is, it goes like this: those who believe and work righteousness. Islam is a religion of faith, iman. If you don't believe, then whatever you do is for nothing. So these Muslims who are screaming and killing people, in clear violation of the Qur'an and Sunnah (it is absolutely in no uncertain terms forbidden to kill innocent people) probably have issues. Do they need to be stopped? Absolutely.

Is calling Islam a wicked evil hateful religion and the Qur'an a wicked book and the Prophet pbuh inspired by a devil going to help? Is attacking innocent Muslims, dropping bombs in their cities, breaking into their homes and capturing all males between the ages of 14 and 50 for questioning going to help? It pisses people off, duuuh.

The best recruitment for al-Qaeda is American foreign policy. No joke. And I don't want to see their ranks swell, I don't want to see militant Islam, I don't want my kids to see it, and I don't want any person on this earth to fall victim to that insanity. But this thread, these articles, these people who do nothing but spread hatred for Islam... they aren't helping.

Muslims start hated secular West.
Secular West starts manipulating Muslims.
Muslims try to avoid said manipulation, and start stumbling over themselves to correct it.
Secular West tries to assert its power by trying to "establish peace" by sending their own war to the Muslims.
Muslims get tired of fighting each other since secular west has started fighting them. Start to fight back.
Secular West tries to dislay Islam as a hateful religion to encourage support for their terror in the Muslim world.
Muslims see their religion constantly bashed by secular west and grow even more angry, fight more.

There has to be dialogue on both sides. But with junk like this, like this thread, like these hate-inspiring writers who claim authority, like the members of this forum who drink the kool-aid... there isn't going to be any dialogue, is there?

[Judah]

Aviatrix, you make me wonder why you live in the secular west since you disparage it so much. You do not want to be a part of our society, so why do you stay?
OK, I do understand that you don't want to do those things that you choose not to - drink, gamble, wear a bikini (me neither!) or whatever. But you do not need to do those things and there is no pressure to make you drink, gamble, etc. The same is true for all of us. We all make decisions for ourselves regarding those choices. We have the freedom to choose. And we believe that the freedom to choose is a good thing.

You talk about Muslim crazies and are upset (as I am) by the terrible things that they do.
They are inspired to behave in this way by their religion, which is Islam. The Qur'an has many violent surah. If you deny that, then you are not interested in hearing the truth.

This is not about hating Muslims, about hating people. But it is about exposing the truth about something that inspires and commands people to do terrible things.

Again, I must ask you to correctly identify the object of hate - and in this case, it is the ideology, not the person. One can point out behaviours and say that they are evil. Someone who behaves in such a way is called an evil person. But that does not mean that a Christian hates the person. They can still want the best for that person, for him to stop doing evil, and to embrace God and learn to love instead - that is not hating the person. But we do hate the sinful deeds - just as you do.

Your attitude towards us is not very pleasant, Aviatrix. We are not so unintelligent and clueless, as you imply. Also, what you are reacting to as "hate-inciting" is the exposure of truth about something that is far too real to ignore. You may deny these things as such, that being your choice. We see the things that are happening in the name of Allah, Islam, the Qur'an, and would be stupid to pretend it is not happening at all.

[Aviatrix]

Now you're being silly. I don't hate America, and I don't hate the West. I was born here, raised here, and I love this country, its peole, and what it stands for. I'm just trying to give you a little bit of perspective as to why hate is growing. Your hatred of Islam grows, and Muslims are starting to hate America now, too, because of what they see of it. I wish they could see the people I see--but they can't, and as long as you and people like you try to encourage the hatred of Islam in general, you're just making things worse.

The ideology which offends you is not Islam--I will go to my death bed with this cry on my lips I fear, that this violence, this hatred is not Islam. The only people who say it is are either comitting atrocities with this excuse, or trying to turn you against all the people who believe in the truth. So as long as you're hating Islam, then the real Muslims can't do anything against the bad ones--you are fueling the fire.

Your attitude towards us is not very pleasant, Aviatrix. We are not so unintelligent and clueless, as you imply. Also, what you are reacting to as "hate-inciting" is the exposure of truth about something that is far too real to ignore. You may deny these things as such, that being your choice. We see the things that are happening in the name of Allah, Islam, the Qur'an, and would be stupid to pretend it is not happening at all.

Are you trying to call me stupid? Listen up babe. What you are reacting to is not truth. Trust me. I live this religion every day, every minute, and study it whole-heartedly to learn truth, and I don't believe in what these absurd critics say, I never have. If Islam were what they said it was, Muslims wouldn't be Muslims. But these like "Mr.Gabriel" are wrong. I'm not ignoring anything--stop saying that I am. I am very aware of the evil done in the name of Islam.

But I'm also a deep enough person to see that just because they say it's Islam does not mean that it is! Can you make that leap? Or shall I go KKK=Christianity because it's done in the name of Jesus! Yeah, right.

[Judah]

Now you're being silly. I don't hate America, and I don't hate the West. I was born here, raised here, and I love this country, its peole, and what it stands for. I'm just trying to give you a little bit of perspective as to why hate is growing. Your hatred of Islam grows, and Muslims are starting to hate America now, too, because of what they see of it. I wish they could see the people I see--but they can't, and as long as you and people like you try to encourage the hatred of Islam in general, you're just making things worse.

No, there is nothing silly about what I am saying. I knew very little about Islam until I heard of Christians being persecuted in the Middle East, the names Yassah Arafat, Ayatollah Khomeiney and others, and visited some Muslim countries. I learnt about how women were (dis)regarded and how certain crimes were punished. Then of course there was 9/11 and everyone was starting to ask questions. That sent shock waves out globally so that even down at the bottom of the planet, we were deeply affected as well. I had stood at the top of the WTC not long before that happened, and I was shocked. Who wasn't? Then we saw Muslims celebrating in Muslim countries, jubilant, cheering for the deaths and distress and grief that was caused. Why? What was it about Islam, since this crime was committed in the name of Allah, that did this? This was not the religion of peace and tolerance that I had previously been told it was (even despite the eye-for-an-eye justice and oppression of women, etc). And so I learnt more about it.

The ideology which offends you is not Islam--I will go to my death bed with this cry on my lips I fear, that this violence, this hatred is not Islam. The only people who say it is are either comitting atrocities with this excuse, or trying to turn you against all the people who believe in the truth. So as long as you're hating Islam, then the real Muslims can't do anything against the bad ones--you are fueling the fire.

If it isn't Islam, what is it? 220 million Arabs live in 22 Arab states (members of the League of Arab States) (dar al-Islam); 450 million Muslims live in some 33 non-Arab but Muslim states (members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (dar al-Islam); 330 million live as minorities in every non-Muslim nation in the world (dar al-harb); 20 million (a rapidly fluctuating number) refugees are scattered in a global Diaspora often displaced with their homelands (dar al-muhajirin). Those that live in dar al-Islam describe their religion as Islam - that is what they name it. And although you say they are not practising Islam when they interpret the Qur'an in such a way that allows these atrocities to occur in the name of Islam, they are still calling it that.

Aviatrix, your argument is not with me. It is with those Muslims who believe differently from you - the ones you believe are practising something else although they call it Islam. Change the way Islam presents to the world, and maybe then you will find that there is no evil left in it to hate. I am afraid that Islam is going to have to change first - not our perception of it before the fact.

Your attitude towards us is not very pleasant, Aviatrix. We are not so unintelligent and clueless, as you imply. Also, what you are reacting to as "hate-inciting" is the exposure of truth about something that is far too real to ignore. You may deny these things as such, that being your choice. We see the things that are happening in the name of Allah, Islam, the Qur'an, and would be stupid to pretend it is not happening at all.

Are you trying to call me stupid? Listen up babe. What you are reacting to is not truth. Trust me. I live this religion every day, every minute, and study it whole-heartedly to learn truth, and I don't believe in what these absurd critics say, I never have. If Islam were what they said it was, Muslims wouldn't be Muslims. But these like "Mr.Gabriel" are wrong. I'm not ignoring anything--stop saying that I am. I am very aware of the evil done in the name of Islam.

No, I am not trying to call you stupid. You are twisting my words. I am saying that we (as in myself and others who see it this way) would be stupid to pretend what we see is not happening at all.
What I am reacting to is indeed truth. It is reality. It is what is happening that neither you nor I like. We both hate these things. I am suggesting to you that your understanding of Islam differs from the understanding of millions of Muslims who support the acts of terrorism, the aggression and bloodshed. And you are saying that your Islam is the real Islam and theirs is not. They would not accept that, I'm sure. They might well call you an apostate because you don't believe as they do. Who has the truth? You or them?

But I'm also a deep enough person to see that just because they say it's Islam does not mean that it is! Can you make that leap? Or shall I go KKK=Christianity because it's done in the name of Jesus! Yeah, right.

Can you not see what I just said - that while they say it is Islam, and you say it is not, they can equally say that what you practice is not Islam? Can you make that leap?

If you want to talk about KKK=Christianity, I believe that comment has already been dealt with on another thread somewhere - perhaps it was the locked one - and that argument is old and holds no water. I think it might have been Byblos or Gman who shot that one down for you.

[Kurieuo]

Aviatrix, I have been following this briefly.

I am wondering what you would say to the Middle Eastern Muslims who believe their interpretation of Quran is correct? How would you argue to such people that the Islam you believe in, a peaceful Islam, is the one the Quran and true Islam actually advocates? Where would you start? I can only see they would think you were too Westernised, perhaps even anti-Islamic.

It is not enough to simply say true Islam is how you perceive it, and that Judah is simply attacking Islam. For many people who call themself Muslim would appear to believe differently to you. What you appear to advocate seems to me to be a Islam infiltrated by Westernised values, whereas foundational Islam has Eastern roots. May I ask how would you like to be a practicing Muslim in the Middle East, for example in Saudi Arabia, or do you not believe many who would claim to be Muslim there are truely Muslim?

Kurieuo