Evidence for God from Science

i belive that there is ghosts of people, not anything to do with satan,god may of said that we cant talk to the dead,but maybe as time has gone on know one is beliving in god, so he lets things happen

ive watched lots of things to do with ghosts and mediums and i truly belive that the mediums have a gift from god

the mediums get everything right about the hauntings who died and so on

so maybe if we dont get to go to heaven we are to walk as ghosts and never have the chance to rest

forget what the bible says about ghost what do you belive and why

jezzer wrote:i belive that there is ghosts of people, not anything to do with satan,god may of said that we cant talk to the dead,but maybe as time has gone on know one is beliving in god, so he lets things happen

ive watched lots of things to do with ghosts and mediums and i truly belive that the mediums have a gift from god

the mediums get everything right about the hauntings who died and so on

so maybe if we dont get to go to heaven we are to walk as ghosts and never have the chance to rest

forget what the bible says about ghost what do you belive and why

Jeezer,

I choose not to forget what the Bible says about ghosts and especially not what it says about mediums.

Lev 19:31

31"Do not turn to mediums or wizards; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God.


Lev 20:6

6"If a person turns to mediums and wizards, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev 20:27

27"A man or a woman who is a medium or a wizard shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them."

While our laws don't operate in this manner in terms of actions and penalty, the principle still applies.

Avoid mediums.

you cant say that a medium is a fake can you? how else would they get their knowledge about the house and people who use to live their if the medium has never been their in his/her life

the bible is very old whos to say god has wanted to change a bit here and there and what better way to tell people about his change through a medium

if you say its fake please convince me why they are fake and how they get their knowledge without quoting the bible

you cant say that a medium is a fake can you? how else would they get their knowledge about the house and people who use to live their if the medium has never been their in his/her life

the bible is very old whos to say god has wanted to change a bit here and there and what better way to tell people about his change through a medium

if you say its fake please convince me why they are fake and how they get their knowledge without quoting the bible

if you are honest it can not be explained

jezzer wrote:you cant say that a medium is a fake can you? how else would they get their knowledge about the house and people who use to live their if the medium has never been their in his/her life

the bible is very old whos to say god has wanted to change a bit here and there and what better way to tell people about his change through a medium

if you say its fake please convince me why they are fake and how they get their knowledge without quoting the bible

if you are honest it can not be explained

1. Many hoaxes in this area exist.

http://www.prairieghosts.com/smoke.html

2. There are fallen angels known as demons, which I believe are complicit in some cases.

I don't dispute there are unexplainable situations. They are just that. Unexplainable.

Why are you so adament on not quoting the Bible on this?

What is the logic of accepting mediums and their "power" to divine the unknown and then deny the existence of God and his power to communicate through the Bible?

Here's an article from the main board that deals with a similar issue.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/astrology.html

Gospel in the Stars?: What Does the Bible Say About Astrology?

Introduction

I recently received an e-mail describing a Bible study in which it was stated that the gospel could be found in the stars of the Zodiac. I was rather surprised that Christians were teaching such things and thought that it would be good to present what the Bible really says about astrology and stargazing.

Gospel in the stars?

In the late 1800's two books were written, The Witness of the Stars by E.W. Bullinger's, and The Gospel in the Stars by Joseph A. Seiss's. Current proponents claim that God's whole plan of redemption can be found in the Zodiac and that the history of mankind and Christ can be understood from the constellations. Most of those who promote this idea admit that the gospel can't be seen in the stars themselves, but that it comes from a "Christianized" interpretation of the signs of the Zodiac, which were assigned by the ancient peoples to apparent groups of stars, called constellations. These figures are not seen in the natural formations of the stars, but are the result only of human imagination. In no way could the stars provide a sign that the Son of God would come to earth and die in our place to offer forgiveness of sin as a free gift of God's grace. It would be impossible for an uninformed person to determine the "gospel" from the stars.

What does the Bible teach about astrology?

The Bible does not specifically discuss astrology extensively, but what it does say is always negative. Like many other sins, the problem with astrology is that people are trying to get answers about life's questions from a source other than God. Many people believe that they can know the future through the location of the stars and planets. However, apart from God's revelation, fortune telling is specifically prohibited throughout the Bible.1

Astrology has no power of prediction:

In the book of Daniel, the Bible makes fun of astrologers and indicates that they are powerless to really observe the future. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon had a disturbing dream that none of his astrologers or "wise men" could interpret.2 The King had ordered all the wise men, including Daniel, a young captive from Judah, to be executed. Daniel convinced the king's bodyguard that God would reveal the mystery to him and requested time to seek the answer. Having prayed to God and received the answer in a vision, Daniel reported to the king's chambers. Daniel told King Nebuchadnezzar:

Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, show unto the king; but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these... (Daniel 2:27-28)

Later, when King Belshazzar, Nebuchadnezzar's son, saw a finger appear and write on the wall at his party, he called in the astrologers, who, likewise, failed to interpret a writing that had appeared on the wall.3 These astrologers were again shown to be powerless deceivers.

God command His people, the nation of Israel not to practice astrology by looking at "signs of the heavens." God calls such "signs" delusions:

Thus says the Lord, "Do not learn the way of the nations, And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens Although the nations are terrified by them; For the customs of the peoples are delusion... (Jeremiah 10:2-3)

Those who practice astrology fall under the judgment of God

It was common practice at the time that the Israelites came into the promised land that the native peoples would practice astrology and worship the heavenly bodies. The Bible specifically warned the Israelites not to practice those things also (see also Jeremiah 8:24):

And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. (Deuteronomy 4:19)

The Bible says that those who are stargazers and make predictions based upon that are in error and will not be saved from judgment:

"Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror. All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. Here are no coals to warm anyone; here is no fire to sit by. That is all they can do for you-- these you have labored with and trafficked with since childhood. Each of them goes on in his error; there is not one that can save you. (Isaiah 47:12-15)

The Kings (such as Josiah) were told to get rid of the worship of the heavenly bodies in their nation and did so5 - under penalty of the judgment of God. The seriousness of this offense is clear, since the penalty for this kind of idolatry was death by stoning.6 God destroyed the ten northern tribes of Israel because they indulged in astrology and other forms of demon worship:

And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal. Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him. So the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; none was left except the tribe of Judah. (2 Kings 17:16-18)

As a judgment of God, the northern tribes were conquered by Assyria. However, Manasseh, one of the evil kings of Judah, also established astrological worship of the heavenly bodies during his reign:

For he rebuilt the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he erected altars for Baal and made an Asherah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of heaven and served them... For he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD... "Because Manasseh king of Judah has done these abominations, having done wickedly more than all the Amorites did who were before him, and has also made Judah sin with his idols; therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Behold, I am bringing such calamity on Jerusalem and Judah, that whoever hears of it, both his ears shall tingle. (2 Kings 21:3-12)

As a result of this idolatry, Judah was also enslaved and dispersed as a nation, because of their involvement in astrology. Israel's involvement in astrology and the worship of heavenly bodies was described by many of the Old Testament prophets, including Jeremiah,7 Zephaniah,8 and Amos.9 All described how this was displeasing to the Lord and that His judgment was the result of such practices.
New Testament condemnation

As in the Old Testament, the New Testament also condemns astrology:

But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "'Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel? You have lifted up the shrine of Molech and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship. Therefore I will send you into exile' beyond Babylon. (Acts 7:42-43)

Conclusion

Although the heavens do declare the glory of God, they do not proclaim the gospel. The gospel was revealed to man by God Himself, who spoke through the prophets and came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ. The apparent arrangement of the stars in the sky is a function of the human brain, which tries to find patterns in everything it interprets. Depending upon one's background and society, different shapes of objects are seen as constellations. None of the constellations make such a clear picture that they could only be interpreted only one way.

Studying the stars to attempt to get some message from them is called astrology, and is expressly prohibited in the Bible. Christians should not dabble in astrology, even if they don't really believe it is true. Trust God with your future and follow Him in obedience to His word.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in Me." (Jesus Christ, John 14:1)
References

1. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, an observer of clouds, or a fortune-teller, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or one who calls to the dead. For all that do these things are an abomination to Jehovah. And because of these abominations Jehovah your God drives them out from before you. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)
And he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom. He also practiced secret arts, and used fortune-telling, and used witchcraft, and dealt with mediums, and with soothsayers. He did much evil in the sight of Jehovah in order to provoke Him to anger. (2 Chronicles 33:6)
And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst of it, and I will destroy its wisdom. And they shall seek to idols, and to the enchanters, and to the mediums, and to the future-tellers. And I will shut up Egypt into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, says the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts. (Isaiah 19:3-4)
As for you, do not listen to your prophets, nor to your fortune tellers, nor to your dreamers, nor to your conjurers, nor to your sorcerers, who speak to you, saying, You shall not serve the king of Babylon. (Jeremiah 27:9)
For so says Jehovah of Hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your fortune-tellers in your midst deceive you, nor listen to your dreams which you dream. (Jeremiah 29:8)
And I will cut off sorceries out of your hand, and there shall not be fortune-tellers among you. (Micah 5:12)
My people seek advice from their wooden idols, and their rod declares to them. For the spirit of harlotry has caused them to go astray, and they have gone lusting away from under their God. (Hosea 4:12)
2. The astrologers answered the king, "There is not a man on earth who can do what the king asks! No king, however great and mighty, has ever asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or astrologer. (Daniel 2:10)
3. The king called out for the enchanters, astrologers and diviners to be brought and said to these wise men of Babylon, "Whoever reads this writing and tells me what it means will be clothed in purple and have a gold chain placed around his neck, and he will be made the third highest ruler in the kingdom." Then all the king's wise men came in, but they could not read the writing or tell the king what it meant. (Daniel 5:7-8)
4. They [the bones of the people of Jerusalem] will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens, which they have loved and served and which they have followed and consulted and worshiped. They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground. (Jeremiah 8:2)
5. He [Josiah] did away with the pagan priests appointed by the kings of Judah to burn incense on the high places of the towns of Judah and on those around Jerusalem--those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and moon, to the constellations and to all the starry hosts. (2 Kings 23:5)
6. If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
7. The houses in Jerusalem and those of the kings of Judah will be defiled like this place, Topheth--all the houses where they burned incense on the roofs to all the starry hosts and poured out drink offerings to other gods.'" (Jeremiah 19:13)
8. those who bow down on the roofs to worship the starry host, those who bow down and swear by the LORD and who also swear by Molech, those who turn back from following the LORD and neither seek the LORD nor inquire of him. Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the LORD is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited. On the day of the Lord's sacrifice I will punish the princes and the king's sons and all those clad in foreign clothes. (Zephaniah 1:5-8)
9. You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god -- which you made for yourselves. Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Damascus," says the LORD, whose name is God Almighty. (Amos 5:26-27)

how does it deny god? also you say it deny the existence of God and his power to communicate through the Bible?

like i said not everyone reads the bible and alot of people dont belive,but if you see it happen through a medium then it gets people thinking and wanting to dig deeper,it has me

if you wanted to tell a tue story and wanted everyone to know and you have put it in a book but you found not many people are taking any notice and reading it wouldn't you want to try something else

i think you would

god wants everyone to know of his existence so why is is so hard for people to think that he has found another way to get people thinking and beliving

think of the people who has never read a book ill put my hand up i never read a book,think of the people who cant read

the bible may be popular but be honest its also old and the new age people want to see things happen,just because there is a bible does not mean people will think its true and will read it

and also why dont people belive because there is no one alive who was around with jesus

for most people if you want to belive something you want something that you can see

if i said to you i have a gold coin in my home would you belive me no
but if i said ive got a gold coin and get someone to show it to you would you belive me now

so what i think is that ghosts and mediums are produced from god which makes the existence of God more belivable

there is a very popular tv programe about ghost's and that show has a medium that i would say is not a fake

Jeezer,

You're entitled to your opinion.

The Bible addresses it directly and you've been shown what it says pretty clearly.

More important than this issue is the truth of the Bible, Who Jesus Christ is, and what you do with Him.

Bart

yep its my opinion but i can see its not going anywhere im not into the bible as you are in here, ive come to this forum to see what really makes the earth go round.

im getting to a point where i can say now i really do belive there is a god,but im unsure about alot of other things

i also think its a bit silly to think people take everything out of the bible like ghosts,remember jesus cant come back to tell us how we should live
do you think god is happy how we have turned out,its been along time since jesus walked our earth

maybe he will send jesus down to us again but for now he could be sending out a message through mediums

31"Do not turn to mediums or wizards; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God

this was spoken in jesus time when there were not many mediums around like today and mediums have come alot more forward

if jesus died 100years ago then i would take that line very Seriously but it was said alot longer than that

i think ghosts are not fallen angels known as demons demons should be bad but alot of ghosts are good with no evil,you could say the demons are being evil by making you think different

as i come to this forum i will gain knowledge about god/jesus but for now some of my belivies will not be like yours

if you think about it hard it could be possible that god has chose some people to channel his spirit through

dont just say what you have read in the bible but think could god be doing this aswell could he be trying to reach the people who dont belive by reading his bible

do you think god can do things that he has not said in the bible

still i hope to gain more info i dont want to be a person who goes to church and preach but i do want to belive there is a god and not the big bang theory and think the world began just as luck

sorry if i go on i dont mean to its not a easy subject to get around your head

if it was easy then we all would belive

God can do things He hasn't said in the Bible. Basically, He can do everything. But not quite everything. He cannot make 1+1=3, for instance. And since He is all-good, He cannot lie. And He says about Himself that He is unchanging.

That is to say, if mediums were bad 4000 years ago, they are still bad.

And why? Because mediums &c. engage in occultism. They do not seek God, but they seek forbidden knowledge and power from demonic spirits. They know a lot, but they try to turn people away from God. Their most treasured way of doing that is by mixing truth with lies.
Every occultic practice, including mediums, cherishes the lie that you can seek power which God forbids, that you have the capacity to be powerful and/or spiritual.
God tells us in the Bible that we should seek our power in Him, that we should do everything through His power. He tells us that our spirituality should drive us to Christ, not to mediums, Ouija boards, astrology, or any other form of fortune telling or connecting with a dark reality we don't understand.

Forbidden knowledge and/or power will never satisfy us. It may bring us into great trouble or fears. Knowing and serving Christ is fulfilling, and gives us peace which can endure all turmoil.

im not starting any arguments really but what does god say about mediums? its sounding like that all mediums are bad? mediums are born with what they can hear/see they are not contacting the spirits beacause they want to better than god or do anything against him,they dont seek power,its nothing to do with power

if you go in a room its full of people and you cant stop them comming up to you and talking, i belive its the same with mediums and spirits

today ive watched alot of spirt/ghost stuff just to see if i can see any difference from what i first thought

i still can not see these ghosts are fallen angles the medium goes in a room he does not try to contact them in any way they seem to contact him if they want to and not once have i seen anything bad happen to this man,for instance today he had this funny spirit who was moving things and smiling

another instance he said he could see children playing at no time was this the act of a demonic spirit,he didn't make these children up as its in the history that these children lived there, and he gets thir names right and age and what year they where living in

are you saying mediums are going to hell because they can hear the otherside? ive watched many documentaries where a young man started to get images in their head not knowing what this is,it was not a thing they wanted to get into,and most of them dont want this im for sure dont want it,but if it happened to me i would share it with mankind just as jesus shared with us how he could heal/walk on water etc

if you haven't allready maybe you should do some research on legit mediums, its only fare as christains are allways saying to non belivers go read the bible go to church etc to find out what you belive then judge for yourself...

being on this forum im leaning towards the fact there is a god but so far i cant belive that mediums are evil and cant belive the the spirts are to do with fallen angels

ok there is some demonic spirits ive seen when watching stuff about ghosts but there seems to be more good than evil

if the fallen angles wanted us to belive its all evil there would be alot more demonic spirits around and more evil things going on



Ouija boards i dont belive in why:that is trying to get into something we shouldn't know about,thats when people are trying to seek forbidden knowledge

please plese give me something to make me think spirits are fallen angels,ive searched the net quickly and not seen anything to back that up have you?

Yes, all occult practices are bad, because they clash with serving God. I wasn't saying all mediums seek power, but most occultists (in general) do.

I've read the testimony of a young woman who heard a spirit's voice one day. She listened to it and it became her personal counsellor, telling her what to do. She felt quite special and saw it as a kind of friend (a 'good spirit'). However, it became more and more demanding. At last it dictated every trivial thing, and it invited a lot of friends. She had thought the spirit was friendly, but it was actually only pretending. Fortunately, she came to belief in Christ and was protected from the occult influence.

The Bible is pretty clear on what happens after death: man is destined to die once, and after that, judgement. Man goes to heaven or to hell. His spirit does not stay to roam the earth.

If mediums go to hell, it will be because they did not believe in Christ.
And if one believes in Christ as his Lord, he will not do things Christ forbids.
[Side note: hell is not a place where people roast in flames...it's the place where humans are forever excluded from God.]

Really, the only spirits that have been helpful to believers are angels. Canuckster is right: God's Word is quite clear on occultism. It is forbidden, because it is dangerous, even though it may seem innocuous at times. Compare it to adultery: one could say, 'I have a sexual relationship outside of marriage...I know the Bible forbids it, but after all, the Bible is very old, so things may be different now...my wife has assured me she doesn't mind, and the other woman is also very nice...I have a loving relationship with my wife and the other woman, so it can't be wrong, can it?' Yes, it can! The Bible forbids adultery because even though it may feel good, it will not bring true happiness. And just like the Bible forbids affairs outside of marriage, it forbids affairs with spirits. Even though it may feel OK, it is not.

Hope this helps a little... Tell me if you disagree.

when you have time read this im not saying its right or wrong
i cant find anything saying spirits are fallen angles there seems to be alot against that ,the only place i find it saying it, is to do with the bible


http://www.legendsofamerica.com/LA-GhostlyLegends5.html


My religion teaches that there are no such things as ghosts.
I am not here to destroy your religious belief system. I believe that what we are taught in Sunday School may not always be what happens after death. Religion was started by man for man to help him adjust to the afterlife. No one has returned and said that what they have been taught is what really happens. I would suggest that perhaps death opens a gateway to an existence that may well be different from what we were told in Sunday School classes. I don't see everything in black or white...good or evil. Just because I may not understand something is no reason for me to label it as evil. Perhaps, I lack the knowledge to understand what I am seeing. If a parent dies and remains behind to watch over the family, is that departed spirit evil? No, it is the spirit of a loving, caring parent who wants his family to adjust and get on with its life.

DEMONS..... Demons might be confused with ghosts but are NOT! These are evil entities which have never been human but instead are sent to earth by Satan to torture and torment humans. Demons are some of the most dangerous kinds of entities! They are here to open a doorway to hell.Demons can use very deceptive practices to gain trust and to lure humans into Satan's domain. Demons have what I consider unlimited power and are pure evil! These entities can present themselves in human form but more often present themselves as some hideous distortion of humans. Demons often present themselves as some kind of horrifying beast.Be VERY afraid of these entities!!!They can do great physical harm to you and your family.DO NOT take these entities lightly!!!


ANGELS.....These are souls of humans that have reached their soul's maturity and have learned all of the life lesson levels. They are a oneness with all, Angels are assigned to EVERY human to help them achieve the learning of the life lesson that they are here to learn this time.Every human has an angel!! Angel's mostly guide humans down the path necessary to learn a particular life lesson. They may be very subtle or pronounced in their guidance. All "Angel's" are sent from what most humans know as "heaven

Religion was started by man for man to help him adjust to the afterlife.

Excuse me? Sez who? We do not believe religion is a happy delusion to take away fear of death. We believe it rests on the revelation of God -- it was not started by man, but started by God.
Every religion started by man has man at the center. Man has to produce certain works in order to attain salvation or enlightenment. However, Christianity teaches only Christ can deliver man, and man is helpless. Does that sound like something humans would like to think?

Demons are some of the most dangerous kinds of entities! They are here to open a doorway to hell. Demons can use very deceptive practices to gain trust and to lure humans into Satan's domain.

The 'doorway to hell' has already been open for a long time... Many humans go through it! I agree that demons are deceptive. I doubt whether they can do great physical harm to someone who is protected by Christ. The book of e.g. Job shows that evil cannot torture a human beyond what God permits.

If a parent dies and remains behind to watch over the family, is that departed spirit evil?

Is the spirit really the parent's spirit, or only pretending to be? And how can you be sure?

ANGELS.....These are souls of humans that have reached their soul's maturity and have learned all of the life lesson levels.

The word 'angel' means 'messenger'. They are messengers and servants of God, created as a race apart from humans. Humans are different from angels.

Just what religion do you adhere to?

i dont have a religion yet..

its what ive pulled of the net its not what ive said but if you look around the net there is more saying that spirits are not fallen angles only the bible states that