Evidence for God from Science

• For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6, NASB)

I wanted to get some opinions here on how you interpret Hebrews 6:4-6. I just want to see some of the various ideas . . . I know how I understand it, but since this is one of the more controversial passages, and since it's interpretation is based so heavily on one's ideas concerning the interrelation of salvation, works, grace, predestination, etc., it really shows a lot about a person's approach to biblical studies.

That, and I just read John MacArthur's discussion of the passage, and, while I disagree with him the majority of the time anyway, he has one of silliest understandings I've come across [/holier than MacArthur high-horse]

KJV

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Once you have been pardoned for sin and fall away, it is impossible to repent again. Because you thought nothing of the blood of Jesus which was use to pardon you. This only applies to those whom GOD has given understanding.

Romans 3
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Once you start to walk in the way of righteousness defined by the commandments you are on your way to salvation. But, if you turn again to the things that you were pardoned for commiting before then it is as if you didn't really care about being pardoned. Then there are NO MORE PARDONS.

Heb 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Jesus will not die again to get you out from under what He already died to get you out from under.

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Now Paul gives a contrast of the Law under Moses vs the Law under Jesus.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

To sin again WILFULLY is to do despite unto the spirit of grace. There is noone that is sin-free but Jesus Himself. This applies to the deliberate sinner - that knows what sin is.

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

So, GOD will not forgive or forget this.

Ezek 18

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and <b>have tasted of the heavenly gift</b> and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the <b>powers of the age to come</b>, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6, NASB)

The two bolded statements are enough of a hint for me to believe it is not referring to all Christians. I have 3 theories as to whom it might refer, but I'm no Bible expert so I don't know which one is more likely.

1. It is referring to those chosen by God(like the apostles or perhaps some of the saints that came later on, like joan of arc)
2. It is referring to those in the afterlife(I really don't like this one. I don't want to have free will after I die, I'd rather know my place out of hell is assured after I die :p
3. Both theories.

1. It is referring to those chosen by God(like the apostles or perhaps some of the saints that came later on, like joan of arc)
2. It is referring to those in the afterlife(I really don't like this one. I don't want to have free will after I die, I'd rather know my place out of hell is assured after I die :p
3. Both theories.

Can you please tell me why it doesn't refer to you and I.
If you serve God at all it is because He chose you.

I don't understand the afterlife part - at that time it will already have been decided.

PS. Joan of Arc ? Yeah right!

For starters, I assume that both "Heavenly Gifts" and "age to come" referrs to the time after the ressurection. Some people have already experienced these final gifts. I know I didn't get a new invincible body, and therefore have not tasted powers of the age to come.

And what's wrong with Joan of Arc?

Everyone is to get the immortal bodies at the same time. I think this is talking about all Christians.

I don't believe this is talking about so much as sin as its talking about blatantly disregarding God as in you sin and know that it is wrong yet you no longer care that it dissappoints the Almighty. Frankly even under the holy spirit we will still sin. All the apostles I imagine committed sins of their own and yet naturally they didn't fall away because they continued to trust in God and did their best to live according to God.

For me this passage is referring to all Christians as we through our faith in the gospels and Revelations have in fact tasted of what is too come and are filled with the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

Ive also think this could be referring to people who at one time had strong christian beliefs and then were lost their faith.

Basically I break it down to mean if you are aware of all the power of God, meaning you strongly believe in the Scripture and or saw the power as in what happened to John. Yet you still manage to turn away from God, then your not worthy.

This can also apply to the fallen angels i believe.

This is basically going to get right back to OSAS almost immediately....

Elishyah,
I don't find your interpretation valid because of this passage:

1 Corinthians 5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

This is a member of the church who has been saved but has entered into unrepentant sin. It is clear that a) his flesh will be destroyed and b) either he will eventually turn to repentance once again or else he's saved even without repentance. Either way you look at point b) I think this contravenes your position that it's impossible to have unrepentant sin forgiven.

I would say one of two things: either a) you will be punished for the sin physically but not spiritually (for we remain children of God) or b) the return to repentance is inline with what I know Jac thinks on the matter.

A long way to say that I agree with your position Jac (even though you haven't stated it). And hey, welcome back - it's been a while since I've seen you post.

This passage also I believe means that all who witness the power of God meaning they believe in him and yet fall away, then they will be incapable of repenting for they have rejected God and his sacrifice which is what keeps us in a state of repentance.

Firstly, I want to state what I've concluded from the OSAS discussion. The path to savation requires a constant belief and dependence upon Jesus.

The Hebrews passage may mean that it'll be impossible for someonle else to lead a backslidden Christian to repent. That does not mean that if the conviction comes from self-realisation, that the person cannot once again find himself within the grace of God?

Furthermore, from personal observations, I've seen that backslidden Christians tend to be confused and miserable, sometimes more than unbelievers. That is a bad witness for Christ and a shame for Him.

vvart wrote:This passage also I believe means that all who witness the power of God meaning they believe in him and yet fall away, then they will be incapable of repenting for they have rejected God and his sacrifice which is what keeps us in a state of repentance.

YES! My thoughts exactly.

However, let me clarify one thing about sin - there is a difference between WILLFUL sin and ACCIDENTAL or UNCONSCIOUS sin.

Paul talked a little bit about it.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Paul say if WE sin wilfully then WE have fiery indignation to look forward to. Paul again lets us know that he is not exempt.

1 Corinth 9
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

Paul is saying that even though he taught many and brought many to GOD, if he doesn't keep his body in subjection then he himself might be cast away by GOD.

But if we make a mistake (and we all will), we have an advocate(High Priest), Jesus.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Mastermind wrote:And what's wrong with Joan of Arc?

I guess I wouldn't consider her a saint - maybe in the catholic sense but not a real saint as in the Bible. I don't have all the facts on Joan of Arc but she was just a warrior. She preached NO gospel and I doubt that she kept the commandments because the catholics forbade it. I didn't want to get lengthy on this you mentioning her just shocked me.

Felgar wrote:A long way to say that I agree with your position Jac (even though you haven't stated it). And hey, welcome back - it's been a while since I've seen you post.

Yeah, I think I actually referenced this verse in the OSAS discussion. I love how much gets read into it

And thanks for the WB. I've been sort of posting sporadically, but December and the first part of this year have been insane. I currently live an hour from where I work. So an 8-5 means I leave at 7 and get back between 6 and 7. If I turn in at 10, that doesn't even give me 4 hours to do all the rest of my business. Thankfully, Jan. 22nd I'll be moving to only 5 minutes from work, and I have set up my schedule so that Sun-Thurs. nights I'm totally free. Thank you God, haha

That, and this is the first time I've been home during the daytime hours in . . . well, it's been well over a month.

Anyway . . . thanks for the interpretations so far. I'm pretty sure I know where you are all taking your positions. I'm just curious as to what you think "repent" implies? If a person can't come to repentance, then, in your model, what is their situation?

Felgar wrote:Elishyah,
I don't find your interpretation valid because of this passage:

1 Corinthians 5
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Paul can't guarantee this man anything. Paul say that the man's sinful nature MAY be destroyed.
If he repents after the trials Satan puts him through then he is recovered. But, if the man does not repent then he's FINISHED! Even if the man does repent, he can't keep repenting for the same thing because then we run into Heb 10:26 again - WILFULL SIN - becasue now you know and you deliberately crossed GOD.

But most importantly, Paul cannot annul the Word of GOD.

Ezek 18
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

This is the decree from God Himself - Paul does NOT get to alter this -only adhere to it. Here God is talking about 2 deaths. If you die the regular physical death while in your sins then you will die the Second Death.

This is a member of the church who has been saved but has entered into unrepentant sin. It is clear that a) his flesh will be destroyed and b) either he will eventually turn to repentance once again or else he's saved even without repentance. Either way you look at point b) I think this contravenes your position that it's impossible to have unrepentant sin forgiven.

I didn't read that his flesh was destroyed. This man is to be turned over to Satan while he lives so that he MIGHT repent and live. If he dies in his sin then there IS NO SALVATION for him.

I would say one of two things: either a) you will be punished for the sin physically but not spiritually (for we remain children of God) or b) the return to repentance is inline with what I know Jac thinks on the matter.

I have no idea what a) means. What does it mean to be punished spiritually?

My definition of repent is to work with God in slowly diminishing our sins and acknowledging our sins so that the Lord may forgive us. There isn't a single person in history except Jesus who didn't sin and I know i will sin to the day that i die. However I do my best to always acknowledge my sins and to try and prevent them in the future and ask for God's forgiveness, hence repentance.

Repentance for me involves mainly to realize sins, have a strong desire not to sin, and to seek God for forgiveness and deliverance.

vvart wrote:My definition of repent is to work with God in slowly diminishing our sins and acknowledging our sins so that the Lord may forgive us. There isn't a single person in history except Jesus who didn't sin and I know i will sin to the day that i die. However I do my best to always acknowledge my sins and to try and prevent them in the future and ask for God's forgiveness, hence repentance.

Repentance for me involves mainly to realize sins, have a strong desire not to sin, and to seek God for forgiveness and deliverance.

I agree with you on this. When you said "and to try and prevent them in the future" it would naturally follow that you would not WILFULLY commit sins. But, if sometime in the future you were not trying to prevent them then you would be doing them willingly in which case you would suffer what Paul spoke of in Heb 10:26. You would be one of those who had been enlightened and had tasted the Heavenly Gift.