God on OT vs. God nowadays etc...

[madscientist]

I know its been somwehere here in the forum but the question is why God was so strict and punished every small thing in the OT. I just read something in OT where they protested etc an were punished. But why some were punished by death, some were left alive? ANd there was this thing that shocked me - that there was a man collecting wood or so on shabbath and he was to be killed. That seems too cruel. Whats happening now? If it happened today we'd ask Jesus to forgive us and thats it. But then?
And the people who had to bring him to Moses etc. Isnt that just evil - pick on ppl who do evil and want them to suffer? I mean, ALL the people should have been punished etc, even today (we got Jesus etc) but why those were specially punished by being killed? Were they just unlucky that God was more angry then? Why couldnt they just kill a lamb or something an sacrifice like the others did?? Today we sacrifice nothinf like that. ANd we're not killed by working on sunday. It happens all the time, and then hopefully, we're forgiven. Was it just that those people were "unlucky" to be living when Jeusus hasnt died and been resurrected yet??
ANd the people - other Israelites did more evil than him yet they lived. Or why some were "elect" ands others not? To do God's work in the temples etc? It says God treats all nations equally but some seem to be more elect than others. Or why the Israelites were elect but others were not, eg the Egyptians? Just because the pharaoh was evil? Or why were not all the nations/people given God's 10 commandments? No surprise they killed their own children and were wicked... The thing is, we can NEVER choose where we are born etc. Seems dreadfully unfair.
Could anyone help pls?

[Turgonian]

God didn't punish every small thing. He often gave the people a lot of warning before He acted. About the protesting -- that was because the Israelites still questioned God's providence and character (!), after He had done so many good things for them, and showed time and again that He cared for the people of Israel, and would remain to do so.
A 'man collecting wood on the Sabbath day' would be breaking God's explicit decree in sight of everyone. The ancient world wasn't like ours, you see. Our society is individualistic -- everyone pretty much minds his own business and does what he wants or what he feels he has to do. In the ancient world, people did what they were expected to do. That helps lots when you're struggling for survival.
So 'picking on people' or 'minding your own business' did not exist. You were constantly being watched. People who transgressed the laws had to be punished, otherwise they might incite other people to do the same. Anarchy was just one step away. People who enforced justice mostly didn't want people to suffer -- they wanted to protect a greater number of people from greater suffering!

God's moral law -- the Ten Commandments -- is written on every heart. Even the Gentiles knew very well that it is wrong to sacrifice children, murder, &c.
And were the Israelites really worse than other nations? Would you rather have the Midianites (predatory, nomadic, warlike guys), the Canaanites (violent, barbaric and extremely decadent -- complete with incest, bestiality and cultic prostitution), or the Amalekites? (They weren't very fair -- they attacked Israel's weaklings instead of meeting the men!)

[madscientist]

God didn't punish every small thing.

Well he didnt? I thought Bible says somewhere - or it is believed God does punish every tiny thing. Small things to small extent, serious things to serious. BTW when we're talking about punishment... what exactly is punishment? Suffering? MAny people suffer not because of have done something bad, actiually, it is often the ones who deserve the punishment are not punished (straight away) etc. like with massive killing etc. Or Jesus - he suffered yet he'd done not a single sin. How can we distinguish punishment from God's good plan or just from normal suffering which we all have to go through? Often the good people suffer much more than the evil ones. SO s there a visible difference between ounishment and normal suffering?

And doesnt punishment sound too sovereign? Eg when childrn do somethig bad they;re punished but children cant ounish parents. Or we cant just ounish our friend for being mean etc. And what xactly deserves punishment?
Isnt punishment sort of a vengeance? I mean, I'd say if you forgive someone, the punishment goes away. The Bible says God forgoves but punsihes as well. But vengeance is a sin. SO dont punishment and vengeance have lots of similar? "You ve done evil now i am gonna pay you back...:" Doesnt it sound a bit like that?

So 'picking on people' or 'minding your own business' did not exist. You were constantly being watched. People who transgressed the laws had to be punished, otherwise they might incite other people to do the same. Anarchy was just one step away. People who enforced justice mostly didn't want people to suffer -- they wanted to protect a greater number of people from greater suffering!

I got no prob with that but actually seeing someone sin and want him to be punished? I mean, tell him that it's wrong, yes, but not wanting him to be killed. Like if i knew somw people are doing evil, we are to tell them God doesnt like that and not take them away and say "This man has done that and that etc" its more like wanting evil for other people and being happy when they're hurt etc. To be honest, if I were caught like that and knew i was to die id rather commit suicide than having people stone me. Wasnt it murder? I couldnt just throw stones at such people because they havent hurt ME in any way... so another thing whcih doesnt seem all right to me.

[Turgonian]

Yes, God is a God of justice and allows nothing to go unpunished; however, He is long-suffering and often withholds His punishment for some time, to give people time to repent (cf. the book of Jonah).

Suffering is punishment, yes... You could say that all human suffering is a punishment for the Fall. The world is under a curse. However, when we are suffering, we should not directly assume God is punishing us. When the disciples asked Jesus why a blind man was blind (had he sinned, or his parents?), Jesus said that the man was blind 'that the works of God should be made manifest in him' (John 9:3).
So suffering entered the world because of the Fall, but suffering is not necessarily a direct punishment of the one who is suffering.
About Jesus -- that's part of God's justice: Jesus had to suffer for the sins of His people, so that God could forgive those. Our sins are 'transferred' to Jesus, and His righteousness is 'transferred' back to us.

Punishment is sovereign. But too sovereign? Isn't God sovereign?
However, it is not our personal duty to punish people. It is still the government's duty (a judge is a person who represents the government), but not ours.
God is not vengeful. He sometimes punishes people, even when they are forgiven (like King David), to deter other people from doing the same. For instance, when Joe maltreats Jack, and Jack forgives Joe, Joe may still have to undergo punishment.
The difference between punishment and vengeance is that punishment is given by someone who has the right to punish, while vengeance is itself another transgression of the law. God is not obsessed with 'paying people back' -- if He would be, none of us could ever be saved!

Those were the laws. If you see someone beating up someone else and you call the police, does that mean you would like to see the attacker punished? No, you mainly want the beaten person to be safe, as well as other persons whom the attacker might beat up in the future. You don't go to him and say, 'I don't think you should do that.'
Another biblical example. When a father and a mother in Ancient Israel had a son who did not obey God's commands and who was unrepentant, even though his father and mother had warned him many times, they had to turn him over to the congregation to let him be stoned. Did those parents desire to see their child punished? Undoubtedly they must have felt deeply grieved. They would not have been happy about the thing at all. However, God had commanded it. Why? Because He wants people to keep His laws. This was especially true in Ancient Israel, where paganism and immorality were always one step away, precisely because people were pressed to follow a leader rather than make their own choices. There were a LOT of social obligations that we don't have today. So if people would be allowed to break away from God's laws unpunished, soon the whole nation would be falling into sin (as indeed happened, repeatedly; read the book of Judges!).

About your comment of 'stoning = murder?' No, it wasn't, just like the electric chair today isn't murder. It is carrying out a legal execution -- AFTER there had been an examination of the case and a legal verdict had been pronounced.

[Jorge S]

Hi Madscientist,

I think you're making an honest questionning about things which appear disturbing at first. I don't know whether or not you're a Christian. If you are then pray that God gives you knowledge and discernment on those issues and continue studying His Word.

May my arguments here bear some 'logic' to you.

First: God reveals many attributes about Himself throughout the Bible and they all work harmoniously at all times. Certain biblical passages show prominently a trait of His Character but that does not mean He is unidimensional.

My favourite explanation in this regard involves Adam's and Eve's situation after their disobedience. God had forwarned them but they erred nevertheless. God's Justice, Authority, Holiness, Sovereignty and Loyalty to His Own Word (e.g. that they would die the day they ate the forbidden fruit) demanded immediate 'execution' of the transgressors. But His Love, Mercy, Patience, Forgiveness, Loyalty to His Own Word (e.g. His previous blessing upon them and the mandate to rule the earth and fill it) called for a different approach. What was God's decision? They were allowed to live but with the burden of the curse they brought unto themselves. God also clothed them and promised right away the means to restore the relationship by prophesizing Jesus' atonement.
In the second generation Cain murdered His brother Abel. God told Cain he was equipped to resist sin -it was a matter of choice; but Cain did not listen. God once more allowed Cain to live with the burden of his evil choice.

God always accomplishes His Purpose despite ourselves. He gives us information and choices. We cannot rule Him, for He rules us and acts according to His Own Standards, not ours. He said of Himself to be 'slow to anger' and also a 'consuming fire.' Which way He acts depends on us. He is also the giver of life and can take it back when He pleases. As far as He is concerned we are all dead unless we abide in Him, and He offers forgiveness when we repent.

Second: God has acted historically. Some events are once-off incidents that fit a particular context and cannot be taken as archetypes. Further revelation qualifies previous revelation. The same God Who punished particular individuals at the time the Law was given demonstrated patience and mercifulness at later stages of the history of Israel. Note that pronouncements about judgement were always coupled with calls for repentance in the books of the Prophets. Punishment was always conditional - and still is.

Third: At the time of Moses God had lived in intimate contact with His chosen people. He brought them out of Egypt and led them through the wilderness with mighty 'signs and wonders.' They were being converted into a holy nation that would become His earthly priests for the blessing of all nations. They were also marching into a military mission with God Himself as their Commander. Discipline and obedience were essential for those tasks. God had revealed Personally to them and demonstrated beyond doubt Who He Was. There was absolutely no excuse to disregard Him the way some did. Jesus later taught that much is demanded from those to whom much is given.

Fourth: God Is Who He Is in spite of what we want Him to be. I mean, we need to know Him by what He has revealed about Himself and not by our own fabrications. God is obviously Love, but Love does not equal permissiveness and detachment. Love that does not teach, trasforms, corrects and transcends cannot be imputed to God.

Hope this helps. Blessings.

[madscientist]

Hi Madscientist,

I think you're making an honest questionning about things which appear disturbing at first. I don't know whether or not you're a Christian. If you are then pray that God gives you knowledge and discernment on those issues and continue studying His Word.

I am in fact a Christian but I am, as you said, making questioning about things which seem disturbinfg and therefore illogical or contradicting at times. It happens that sometimes everything makes sense etc and then something comes to my brain and suddenly almost notjing of this makes sense eg inequality, how the world works etc. And this just seems demotivating and I am trying to find answers. Thanx to this site and people posting here so many ppl can be helped!
Kinda understood punishment etc but i still kinda think its evil. Like if somebody comes pleading to you he'll never do it again and you are still cruel and say "because you deserve it" and unable to take it away then thats just not good. I know laws and judges work that way and the only JUDGE should be God its still kinda harsh. But ya true if there was nothing to do woth those who do so much evil then this world would be murder murder evil and wouldnt have lasted for long...

And could we say forgivement and repentance takes away punishment?

[puritan lad]

God has not changed one bit. The God of the OT was merciful (Psalm 130:3), and the God of the NT judges sin (Acts 5:1-11).

One thing to consider regarding the apparent difference is that the OT was mostly written by God's prophets to ungodly backsliders, while the NT is written to God's people, His church. Obviously, the language that God uses toward the wicked will differ from the toward Christians.

[madscientist]

God has not changed one bit. The God of the OT was merciful (Psalm 130:3), and the God of the NT judges sin (Acts 5:1-11).

One thing to consider regarding the apparent difference is that the OT was mostly written by God's prophets to ungodly backsliders, while the NT is written to God's people, His church. Obviously, the language that God uses toward the wicked will differ from the toward Christians.

Ya God hasnt changed but in OT he seemed more strict and so punishing etc. If it happened in NT probably ppl would be forgoven like many people who went to Jesus when he was in human form. Or am I completely wrong?
Hopefully God is merciful and judges sin and mercy goes over judgement. Thanx God for that!

[Turgonian]

When there was punishment in the Old Testament, there always was warning beforehand. People had choices to say 'I'll never do it again'. And in the case of the man collecting wood, this was an act of open rebellion against God, who had manifested Himself very clearly -- thereby showing that His commands were not idle words.

However, since Jesus has died, we are not 'under the law' anymore, and the old punishments have fallen away. If we believe in Jesus, we are sinless in God's eyes, and there is no judgement for us.

[madscientist]

However, since Jesus has died, we are not 'under the law' anymore, and the old punishments have fallen away. If we believe in Jesus, we are sinless in God's eyes, and there is no judgement for us.

Well there s no judgement in heaven but on this world there is probably.

[FFC]

However, since Jesus has died, we are not 'under the law' anymore, and the old punishments have fallen away. If we believe in Jesus, we are sinless in God's eyes, and there is no judgement for us.

Well there is no judgement in heaven but on this world there is probably.

Nope. If you have believed in Christ for eternal life, the punishment issue is settled.

Look at this in the NASB:

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

And this in the KJV:

1John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Christ already settled our score with God. We deserved Wrath and punishment and most certainly would have incurred it if Christ hadn't died on the Cross in our place. He appeased God and reconciled us to Him, that is what propitiation is.

For God to punish us again after Christ has already taken our punishment would be unjust! God is not unjust. Christ's death on the cross satisfied Him. Do you realize how much He suffered on the cross to pay that price? Praise Him, because if it didn't we'd all have a lot to worry about.

I hope that helps.

[madscientist]

For God to punish us again after Christ has already taken our punishment would be unjust! God is not unjust. Christ's death on the cross satisfied Him. Do you realize how much He suffered on the cross to pay that price? Praise Him, because if it didn't we'd all have a lot to worry about.

Ok then but arent we saved by God's grace rather than works? If it is God's will for me to be saved I'll be saved, if not I won't even if I do everything to get saved may it still happen I dont get saved? Probablyt not since GOD IS PERFECT and when a person who loved God less gets saved then most logically any person who loved God as much as that person or even more must get saved... At least my opinion on it

[Turgonian]

madscientist -- Yes, we are saved by God's grace, by Christ's accomplished work -- explicitly NOT by works. 'All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags...'

No truly penitent sinner was ever turned away from God. All you have to do, when you want to be freed from the bondage of sin, is to believe in Jesus to have forgiven your sins. Copying from here:

The means by which the sinner receives the benefits of Christ's saving work (His sinless life and sacrificial death) is faith in Him. No one can be justified apart from faith, yet, no one is justified on the basis of his faith. Faith itself does not save the sinner but brings him to Christ who saves him; therefore, faith, though a necessary means to justification, is not itself the cause or ground of justification.

We must be careful not to confuse imputed righteousness (which is received by faith alone and is the only ground of justification) with personal acts of righteousness which are performed by believers as a result of the Holy Spirit's work in their hearts. These personal acts of righteousness in no way secure or add to our justification.

[FFC]

For God to punish us again after Christ has already taken our punishment would be unjust! God is not unjust. Christ's death on the cross satisfied Him. Do you realize how much He suffered on the cross to pay that price? Praise Him, because if it didn't we'd all have a lot to worry about.

Ok then but arent we saved by God's grace rather than works? If it is God's will for me to be saved I'll be saved, if not I won't even if I do everything to get saved may it still happen I dont get saved? Probablyt not since GOD IS PERFECT and when a person who loved God less gets saved then most logically any person who loved God as much as that person or even more must get saved... At least my opinion on it

All I'm sure of at this point in my life is that if your turn to God with a sincere heart in faith and believe that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation for you then you are saved...regardless of emotions or intellect. God doen't save you according to how much you believe but by what you believe.

[madscientist]

All I'm sure of at this point in my life is that if your turn to God with a sincere heart in faith and believe that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation for you then you are saved...regardless of emotions or intellect. God doen't save you according to how much you believe but by what you believe.

Well I am trying to turn to God - not that it is different from other people - but what i was asking here was just to make things cleaere etc. ANd so although it may seem like I am stupid or so it is just to make things clearer... Thanx God for his mercy!