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Luke 22: Jesus asks disciples to buy swords?
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:11 am
by Christian2
Luke 22:
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.” (NKJV)
What is Jesus saying to His disciples? Is he suggesting that they may need swords for self-defense?
Surely two swords would not be "enough."
What am I missing here?
Thanks.
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:22 am
by Jorge S
Hi C2
That's a difficult one. The expression 'It is enough' can mean either that the two swords are enough for defense or that the conversation is over because the disciples missed the prophetic point of His warning.
It is interesting that He quotes Isa 53:12 - an obvious Messianic passage - as to be fulfilled in Him. Besides, upon His capture He clearly rebuked the use of the sword by one of His disciples (Luk 22:51; Mat 26:51-56.)
I think the translation given by the ISV fits better the passage: "Enough of that!"
Hope this helps.
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:48 am
by BGoodForGoodSake
When Jesus says that's enough, he is expressing his frustration that his disciples took his analogy literally. By presenting two actual swords the disciples showed that they did not understand at all what Jesus was telling them.
Sort of like YEC missing the point of Job and Genesis completely.
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:21 am
by Christian2
Jorge S wrote:Hi C2
That's a difficult one. The expression 'It is enough' can mean either that the two swords are enough for defense or that the conversation is over because the disciples missed the prophetic point of His warning.
It is interesting that He quotes Isa 53:12 - an obvious Messianic passage - as to be fulfilled in Him. Besides, upon His capture He clearly rebuked the use of the sword by one of His disciples (Luk 22:51; Mat 26:51-56.)
I think the translation given by the ISV fits better the passage: "Enough of that!"
Hope this helps.
You think that Jesus is telling them that they are going to half to defend themselves physically?
Isa 53 is understood. I think Jesus explained that He would die--they didn't understand that either--and quoted the Scripture.
Yes, one place Jesus says buy swords and another time He says "those who live by the sword will die by the sword."
I agree with you about "enough of that."
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:22 am
by Christian2
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:When Jesus says that's enough, he is expressing his frustration that his disciples took his analogy literally. By presenting two actual swords the disciples showed that they did not understand at all what Jesus was telling them.
Sort of like YEC missing the point of Job and Genesis completely.
OK, what was Jesus telling them?
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:17 pm
by FFC
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:When Jesus says that's enough, he is expressing his frustration that his disciples took his analogy literally. By presenting two actual swords the disciples showed that they did not understand at all what Jesus was telling them.
Sort of like YEC missing the point of Job and Genesis completely.
Ouch
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:17 pm
by Jac3510
I think Bock provides a good overview of this passage:
Darrel Bock wrote:The approach of Jesus' death brings a change in the way the disciples will conduct their mission. In the two missions of Luke 9 and 10, the disciples had to roam Israel and trust the towns they visted to furnish their provisions. So Jesus asks them to recall if they lacked anything. They rsepond that they lacked nothing then. Now they will have to travel with provision. They are to take a purse and a knapsack. The one without a sword will need to purchase one. The openness to reception has changed into the environment of rejection, for Scripture is in the process of being realized in Jesus, a point the text makes emphatically by introducing and concluding the citation with remarks about fulfillment. To describe his fate, Jesus cites Isa. 53:12: "And he was reckoned with the transgressors." The cross will show how skewed things have become. The one who prclaimed the hope of Israel will be executed as if he were seeking to undermine the nation. Just as the teacher is rejected, so it will be for the followers.
Peter takes Jesus' remarks as a sign that they must fight, a belief that will show itself when Peter wields a sword at Jesus' arrest (John 18:10; the Synoptics note only that one of them used a sword). He notes that they already have two swords, again indicating his seeming willingness to go down fighting in the face of what surely will be superior numbers of opponents. The misunderstanding is so great that Jesus chooses instead to end the conversation and allow events to run their course. Jesus' teaching in Luke ends on this note that the disciples still have much to learn. Subsequent events will teach them.
Quoted from
Jesus According to Scripture: Restoring a Portrait from the Gospels, (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2002), 365-66.
The disciples would actually need a sword, just as they would need a knapsack and purse. The sword doesn't need to be taken as necessary for fighting, though. The idea seems to be that the people would no longer take care of them - they would have to take care of themselves. The disciples, though, thought Jesus was saying they would push their agenda by force, and idea He rejected then as He always had.
God bless
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:47 pm
by BGoodForGoodSake
Christian2 wrote:BGoodForGoodSake wrote:When Jesus says that's enough, he is expressing his frustration that his disciples took his analogy literally. By presenting two actual swords the disciples showed that they did not understand at all what Jesus was telling them.
Sort of like YEC missing the point of Job and Genesis completely.
OK, what was Jesus telling them?
He is telling them simply that his time is comming to an end. That from now on they must continue in a hostile world, and lead a difficult path.
He is not telling them to buy a sword litterally nor to use force. Read on Luke 22:49-51.
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:13 am
by Christian2
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:Christian2 wrote:BGoodForGoodSake wrote:When Jesus says that's enough, he is expressing his frustration that his disciples took his analogy literally. By presenting two actual swords the disciples showed that they did not understand at all what Jesus was telling them.
Sort of like YEC missing the point of Job and Genesis completely.
OK, what was Jesus telling them?
He is telling them simply that his time is comming to an end. That from now on they must continue in a hostile world, and lead a difficult path.
He is not telling them to buy a sword litterally nor to use force. Read on Luke 22:49-51.
I agree.
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:36 pm
by Atticus Finch
What do you all think of Tolstoy's non-violence interpretations from the Gospels?
Jesus throwing out the people from the temple tells me that there is a time to act and not sit down submissively.
Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:59 am
by bizzt
Like it says
Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:
Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:32 pm
by Turgonian
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:When Jesus says that's enough, he is expressing his frustration that his disciples took his analogy literally. By presenting two actual swords the disciples showed that they did not understand at all what Jesus was telling them.
Sort of like YEC missing the point of Job and Genesis completely.
And how do
you so surely know the story of Job is a myth? Scientific evidence?
I agree with the rest of what is said here -- and would like to add that these swords wouldn't be of much use in warfare. As
JP Holding (him again!) says:
JP Holding wrote:The swords in question, at any rate, were not the longswords of our medieval television programs. This would most likely have been a Jewish short sword - a dagger used as protection against wild animals and robbers, considered so essential that even the "peace-loving Essenes" carried it, and it was permitted to be carried on the Sabbath as part of one's adornment!
Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30 am
by BGoodForGoodSake
Turgonian wrote:BGoodForGoodSake wrote:When Jesus says that's enough, he is expressing his frustration that his disciples took his analogy literally. By presenting two actual swords the disciples showed that they did not understand at all what Jesus was telling them.
Sort of like YEC missing the point of Job and Genesis completely.
And how do
you so surely know the story of Job is a myth? Scientific evidence?
I did not state it was a myth. The story is about testing of one's faith through hardship. And how bad things can happen to good people. Or do you think that every bad thing that happens to a good person involves a wager between God and the Devil?