Evidence for God from Science

What is the christian stance regarding morality within dreaming?

It's difficult to control the path of our dreams and sometimes they aren't always pure. I'm about to share a rather candid example so some people might want to skip the next part.

While I slept this morning I dreamt that I had relations (sexual) with my next door neighbor. She's at least thirty years older than I and it would be quite the shock if any of this happened in real life. Dreams can have profound effects on the mind when awake and right now I feel a strange attraction to her.

Since we cannot control the content of our dreams (as we can our awakened consciousness) should we worry at all about our dreaming? Is morality only efficient when of a sober and clear mind?

Thanks.

Atticus Finch wrote:What is the christian stance regarding morality within dreaming?

It's difficult to control the path of our dreams and sometimes they aren't always pure. I'm about to share a rather candid example so some people might want to skip the next part.

While I slept this morning I dreamt that I had relations (sexual) with my next door neighbor. She's at least thirty years older than I and it would be quite the shock if any of this happened in real life. Dreams can have profound effects on the mind when awake and right now I feel a strange attraction to her.

Since we cannot control the content of our dreams (as we can our awakened consciousness) should we worry at all about our dreaming? Is morality only efficient when of a sober and clear mind?

Thanks.

Hi, Atticus,
I am not sure how to explain this, but from what I have read, when we dream, since the conscious and reasoning part of our brain is not active, the brain takes bits and parts of our subconscious and tries to put them together in some sort of cohesive way. We really have no control of what plays out. I don't think we would be held accountable for what pops up in our dreams.

FFC wrote:
We really have no control of what plays out. I don't think we would be held accountable for what pops up in our dreams.

What about mental illness? And to what degree of mental illness?

Clinical depression can make a person feel a certain way when perhaps they don't want to and have no reason to be in such a way. More serious mental illness can leave a person totally void of clear thought. Are people like this considered exempt from the punishment of sin (if they had not yet received Christ) since they cannot control their brain's actions?

Atticus Finch wrote:

FFC wrote:
We really have no control of what plays out. I don't think we would be held accountable for what pops up in our dreams.

What about mental illness? And to what degree of mental illness?

Clinical depression can make a person feel a certain way when perhaps they don't want to and have no reason to be in such a way. More serious mental illness can leave a person totally void of clear thought. Are people like this considered exempt from the punishment of sin (if they had not yet received Christ) since they cannot control their brain's actions?

No one is exempt from the punishment of sin regardless of their mental state...just as a Christian is not exempt from the Grace and love of God despite their mental state. Paul at one point was so depressed that he dispaired of life. He said another time that he would rather be with the Lord than stay here. It's possible to have mental anguish and still have your heart towards God. Jesus was in such mental anguish in the garden of Gethsemene, knowing what He would have to endure, that he sweated blood.

For those who accept that they are sinners before God and need Jesus to restore their relationship with Him, then what happens within their minds when they are asleep or impaired by illness is covered by the perfect justice of our loving Father. Do not underestimate His ability to understand and be absolutely fair and reasonable in His dealings with us. We are not more just than He is. Remember that His forgiveness of us is ongoing and that He cleanses (present tense!) us from all sin.

I think mental state does matter in determining whether some one sins or not. It counts quite much on the intention one may foster before any commitment of sin. James 1:15 said: "Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when ti is full-grown, gives birth to death". The "intention" must come first of all or it doesn't make sense to condemn.

I think Jesus teachings are all about the mindset that we should be careful about before we behave well not to offend God's will, which is certainly within our voluntary control; as inferred in Matthew 5:21-30 the teaching about the adultery and murder there must be voluntary thought that overwhelms us before it prompts us to commit sin in behaviour condemnable as sin. In other words, we must go astrayed out of our evil desire before it gives birth to sin as James 1:15.

Involuntary thought beyond our control is not within the scope.

I agree with most of what is being said here.

I would note, in terms of my experience, that our dream life feeds upon what we consciously feed our minds with as well.

I've found, in my own experience, while I am not exempt from dreams that might make a sailor blush, that I have fewer of them and less intensity when I am disciplining my eyes and thought life and feeding upon positive things.

When it comes to dreams that is by no means an absolute, but it does make an impact.

Bart

Canuckster1127 wrote:I agree with most of what is being said here.

I would note, in terms of my experience, that our dream life feeds upon what we consciously feed our minds with as well.

I've found, in my own experience, while I am not exempt from dreams that might make a sailor blush, that I have fewer of them and less intensity when I am disciplining my eyes and thought life and feeding upon positive things.

When it comes to dreams that is by no means an absolute, but it does make an impact.

Bart

I agree, Bart. The thoughts and images that enter our sub conscious have to come from somewhere. If the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts are not acceptable to the lord in our waking moments then it is only logical that they will show up in our dreams.

Sometimes, however, I have dreams of such a bizarre nature that I have to ask myself "where the heck did that come from!?"

I have trouble in accepting this.

It is true the inner of our bodies, the soul, shouldn't be filthy cos it is where the Holy Spirit dwells; yes God is holy so we must live in holy fashion.

In epistles to Corinthian Paul said there is concession to us who get married if we are burnt with passion it is not sinful to get married cos God sees a couple "good" in Genesis, and there were tons of times God blesses His chosen people to have offsprings like stars in the sky.

If there is no lustful mind when a couple beds, how should there be offsprings? it is certainly filthy when a couple beds in conflict with what we are always taught to live holily "because God is holy"; Matthew 5:21-31 perplexes me deeply when Jesus taught that looking at a woman lustfully is worse than gorging out our eyes.

Any thoughts?

FFC wrote: I agree, Bart. The thoughts and images that enter our sub conscious have to come from somewhere. If the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts are not acceptable to the lord in our waking moments then it is only logical that they will show up in our dreams.

Sometimes, however, I have dreams of such a bizarre nature that I have to ask myself "where the heck did that come from!?"

I think that it sounds better to be sure the words of our mouths and the meditations in waking moments do have anything to do with the dreams - that's the incomplete cycle of REM when it happens we remember what we have dreamt; often, however, we forgot the dreams when we wake up.

Oriental wrote:It is true the inner of our bodies, the soul, shouldn't be filthy cos it is where the Holy Spirit dwells; yes God is holy so we must live in holy fashion.

The first part is not what the Bible says! Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Body and soul are united; they work together.

Oriental wrote:If there is no lustful mind when a couple beds, how should there be offsprings? it is certainly filthy when a couple beds in conflict with what we are always taught to live holily "because God is holy"...

Lust is passion gone bad. It's selfish. In a marriage bed, there should not be lust, and the loving husband does not use his wife solely for his own purposes. Instead, he makes clear he cherishes and loves her. Lust is only focused on one's own pleasure, but not all sex is lust.

Oriental wrote:Matthew 5:21-31 perplexes me deeply when Jesus taught that looking at a woman lustfully is worse than gorging out our eyes.

Not quite, if I'm not mistaken... He says it's better to cut off a limb than to burn in Hell for all eternity. However, He is speaking hyperbolically to get a point across powerfully. When He says 'No one can come to Me unless he hate his family', He means 'Love Me more than your family'. Jesus is not literally urging anyone here to mutilate himself -- He's saying that even if turning from sin involves discomfort, it's better to do it anyway, because living in sin might get you into great trouble (even eternal trouble)!

Turgy wrote:Lust is passion gone bad. It's selfish. In a marriage bed, there should not be lust, and the loving husband does not use his wife solely for his own purposes. Instead, he makes clear he cherishes and loves her. Lust is only focused on one's own pleasure, but not all sex is lust.

Very good! You really are wise beyond your years. The bible is true when it says that the marriage bed is undefiled, which I take to mean that just about any kind of sexual activity between two consenting married adults is permitted, but any time that desire is only to satisfy your sexual need as an end in itself it is sin. There really is a fine line there, but like everything in our Christian lives we need the holy Spirits wisdom and discernment.

Turgonian wrote:The first part is not what the Bible says! Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Body and soul are united; they work together.

Lust is passion gone bad. It's selfish. In a marriage bed, there should not be lust, and the loving husband does not use his wife solely for his own purposes. Instead, he makes clear he cherishes and loves her. Lust is only focused on one's own pleasure, but not all sex is lust.

Not quite, if I'm not mistaken... He says it's better to cut off a limb than to burn in Hell for all eternity. However, He is speaking hyperbolically to get a point across powerfully. When He says 'No one can come to Me unless he hate his family', He means 'Love Me more than your family'. Jesus is not literally urging anyone here to mutilate himself -- He's saying that even if turning from sin involves discomfort, it's better to do it anyway, because living in sin might get you into great trouble (even eternal trouble)!

Indeed. I agree that it is a wise drawing line for this. Glad to hear this.

It occurs to me that any self-gratification in respect of sex is sinful even though we don't commit adultery with a woman behaviorally.

Oriental wrote:It occurs to me that any self-gratification in respect of sex is sinful even though we don't commit adultery with a woman behaviorally.

I don't think I've ever put it that diplomatically before. As Jesus said all sin has it's origin in the heart Mat 15:19 and lusting after a woman in your heart is the same as committing adultery with her. Mat 5:28

FFC wrote:

Oriental wrote:It occurs to me that any self-gratification in respect of sex is sinful even though we don't commit adultery with a woman behaviorally.

I don't think I've ever put it that diplomatically before. As Jesus said all sin has it's origin in the heart Mat 15:19 and lusting after a woman in your heart is the same as committing adultery with her. Mat 5:28

I am afraid I am inclined to disagree. The key word to the understanding of Jesus teaching as in Matt 5:28 is "hyperbolically"

turgonian wrote: He is speaking hyperbolically to get a point across powerfully

If what you said is true, it seemingly conflicts with James 1:15 where "sin" must be behavioral to get realized; otherwise, it is always "desire" well before giving birth to "sin" whether the sin comes true or not "desire" still lingering in one's mind.

Jesus charged us of the "desire" hyperbolically as "sin" it does not mean the desire has already been a "sin" to condemn.

In other words, if what you said is true, indignation is sort of sin because Matt 5:21-25 state that anger against a brother already subject to sin someone who kills no body.