The Koran / Bible

[Atticus Finch]

I've finally been able to attain the Koran from my library. I had been waiting to read it so that I could gain more knowledge about it and perhaps gain some wisdom and hopefully put an end to my false notions of what it was as a religion.

I've only read up to the third Surah at this point but I am highly impressed. From what I've been able to understand at this early stage is that:

1) The Koran states that Jesus was one of many messengers to the Truth of Allah.

2) He was not Allah's "begotten Son" and to assume so is a blasphemy to Islam.

3) The Garden of Eden was not a literal garden, but rather a state of innocence or bliss and Unity with Allah and the Truth. The fall was Satan's temptation which brought mankind back into our reality without the spiritual connection Man had to God.

These things I've found to be very interesting. The Book appeals to me in a poetical sense and in the mystique of some of its writings.

How could I assume this is merely a "false teacher" or a "false religion" when it teaches (from what I've read up to now) the same moral standards that we follow under the New Testament?

It says to free ourselves from sin and to walk after truth and righteousness. Reminds me of "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor sitteth in the seat of sinners" and the rest of the first Psalm in the Bible.

My questions are naive since I've only read a small amount of the Koran; but how can I be sure that this is not the Truth? I must shamefully admit that through my short readings of it I have felt profoundly moved in the direction of Truth.

[Byblos]

I've finally been able to attain the Koran from my library. I had been waiting to read it so that I could gain more knowledge about it and perhaps gain some wisdom and hopefully put an end to my false notions of what it was as a religion.

I've only read up to the third Surah at this point but I am highly impressed. From what I've been able to understand at this early stage is that:

1) The Koran states that Jesus was one of many messengers to the Truth of Allah.

2) He was not Allah's "begotten Son" and to assume so is a blasphemy to Islam.

3) The Garden of Eden was not a literal garden, but rather a state of innocence or bliss and Unity with Allah and the Truth. The fall was Satan's temptation which brought mankind back into our reality without the spiritual connection Man had to God.

These things I've found to be very interesting. The Book appeals to me in a poetical sense and in the mystique of some of its writings.

How could I assume this is merely a "false teacher" or a "false religion" when it teaches (from what I've read up to now) the same moral standards that we follow under the New Testament?

It says to free ourselves from sin and to walk after truth and righteousness. Reminds me of "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor sitteth in the seat of sinners" and the rest of the first Psalm in the Bible.

My questions are naive since I've only read a small amount of the Koran; but how can I be sure that this is not the Truth? I must shamefully admit that through my short readings of it I have felt profoundly moved in the direction of Truth.

So let me get this straight, you've effectively renounced catholicism without even attempting to understand it but you find truth in Islam? Okie Dokie, I think I get it.

[Atticus Finch]

So let me get this straight, you've effectively renounced catholicism without even attempting to understand it but you find truth in Islam? Okie Dokie, I think I get it.

I never renounced catholicism, I simply pointed out some things which seemed contradictory to what I had read within the Bible.

It sounds like you hold the Koran in a slightly derisive light. I know nothing about it except merely what I've read today. Instead of just basically calling me insane for being interested in the Koran rather than Catholic traditions, could you point out to me the error in the Koran which makes choosing the Bible an easy task?

Shouldn't a person browse all religions until they find one which largely appeals to them as the truth? If Christianity and Islam are two major world religions then how am I to know which one holds the truth and which one is a complete forgery not worth even picking up?

[Byblos]

So let me get this straight, you've effectively renounced catholicism without even attempting to understand it but you find truth in Islam? Okie Dokie, I think I get it.

I never renounced catholicism, I simply pointed out some things which seemed contradictory to what I had read within the Bible.

Then I apologize for jumping to conclusions. You didn't exactly reply to my other post.

It sounds like you hold the Koran in a slightly derisive light. I know nothing about it except merely what I've read today. Instead of just basically calling me insane for being interested in the Koran rather than Catholic traditions, could you point out to me the error in the Koran which makes choosing the Bible an easy task?

First, I did not call you insane, I just found it odd, that's all. My first impression of you was that you were giving christianity a chance (though not catholicism). Evidently my first impression was wrong.

Second, the error in the Koran is that it is not the gospel (you know, the good news?). The good news is that God sent his only son to die and be resurrected for your sake, Atticus. And no one will make it to heaven except through him.

Shouldn't a person browse all religions until they find one which largely appeals to them as the truth? If Christianity and Islam are two major world religions then how am I to know which one holds the truth and which one is a complete forgery not worth even picking up?

This is a Christian web site. You can't expect to be encouraged to seek another religion or to claim that another religion is the truth now, can you? Particularly when christianity is the truth and Christ is the only way to salvation.

I encourage you to read some of the articles on the main board, including the discussion guidelines found here.

I also implore you to get firm in your christianity first, then learn about other religions. It is literally a matter of eternal life or death.

God bless,

John.

[Atticus Finch]

Then I apologize for jumping to conclusions. You didn't exactly reply to my other post.

You didn't jump, it was my mistake on all accounts for not lending enough information about my own personal stance in each topic.

First, I did not call you insane, I just found it odd, that's all. My first impression of you was that you were giving christianity a chance (though not catholicism). Evidently my first impression was wrong.

It is odd. Especially when the Bible teaches that God came to the earth as a man and taught the only way to salvation. I understand the faith.

My interest in religion, truth, and God started along with my turning 18 years old. I've since wondered if the two are related in a significant way at all. I suppose that completing high school and somewhat abandoning childish things caused me to take the next step in deciding the direction of my life through a personal philosophy. Of course this failed and that led me to look to religion for answers. I have no problem in believing in the Divine Communication between God and Man. For some people this is the sole reason that they won't even consider reading of any religions. They feel that it's arrogant to assume that we as simple humans might ever be granted such importance from the Creator.

I do not feel this and view it as a simple logical argument. There are small things in the world and there are large things in the world. Both physical and mental. Sometimes the large things are actually small and the small large. A small dog can rip up an entire living room set while its owners are away while a large dog may sit patiently awaiting their return.

I believe that if there is a Creator, and I strongly believe there is, then He must have communicated with mankind at some point in time. People harden their hearts and deny the beautiful qualities we all have. It's ridiculous to deny the presence of morality deeply embedded in each sane person, and no such morality would be needed if the universe were the product of an uncaused chance.

With such I have chosen to seek which religion might possibly hold the key to God's heart and reveal His purpose to each of us. Of course, the Bible has this revelation and in my eyes it is very sound. The problem I have with this is the constant belittling that the Bible receives. I had someone tell me that it's good not to believe anything the Bible says because all scripture is the result of "chinese whispers".

We have comedians like George Carlin, Bill Maher, and Bill Hicks who often mock christianity and insult our faith as being that of Santa Clause. Without living a life of a recluse it's hard not to face the temptation of wavering in faith due to cold and brash attacks on the entire religion.

Second, the error in the Koran is that it is not the gospel (you know, the good news?). The good news is that God sent his only son to die and be resurrected for your sake, Atticus. And no one will make it to heaven except through him.

There's an interesting remark from Gandhi in which he mocked our belief that nobody is granted eternal life without declaring the name of Jesus Christ. On one level I can fully understand his point. But I do believe it was made in a slight ignorance of the christian belief. He (I assume) was speaking of the people who simply accept Jesus Christ but hardly know what it means and often live terribly there after. We all know people like this and it's easy to understand such a view as he had held.

Obviously, we understand that all people have sinned and are not right with God in our hearts. It is not our works (although they should be done) that grant us life but our faith. We should turn from sin and never welcome it into our minds again --- but that's an incredibly tough role to play and many would probably fail at it.

I think of it like this: An old man who had lived a life full of sin. He neglected his family, raised them without a proper moral compass, and let them grow wild into whatever they pleased. This man was cruel to his neighbors, and was cheap with his money. He scoffed at the notion of God with his typical sarcastic tongue. He thought that religious people were idiots who needed to believe in imaginary people to survive. He had himself and because he was so independent he knew he didn't need some God to help him.

This old man as he aged even more became sick in his body. He tried to receive treatments but none of them did any work. His sickness spread and he had no hope for himself. He had previously relied solely on himself throughout his whole life, yet now he was down and couldn't even walk! He had nobody to help him. His family had rejected him for his coldness, he had no friends, and he was too cheap to spend money on someone to help him. One man, however, was not so quick to give up on him. This man was of complete patience and he never let his anger give way to impatience with the old man. He had something that he didn't and he wanted to share it; this thing was God and he began telling the old man about his knowledge. He recited the Gospels to him and told him of Christ's promise to mankind. The old man seeing that his life had been full of hate and bitterness immediately accepted Jesus Christ to wash away his sins. He spent one day in pure prayer trying to make up for lost time.

That night the old man died in his hospital bed. He had lived a life full of hate and misery but it was all forgiven of him. The horrors he had done had been washed away by pure love. He hadn't any time to live more life and do good works but was saved solely on faith in Christ.

....................

I believe the christian teaching is sound. If I were never faced with any refutations of both the Bible and christianity I would live peacefully within it and never feel abandoned in my own faith.

This is a Christian web site. You can't expect to be encouraged to seek another religion or to claim that another religion is the truth now, can you? Particularly when christianity is the truth and Christ is the only way to salvation.

I've only been reading the Bible properly for about three months. The only thing I had done before that was play one of the "Three Wise Men" in an Easter play when I was about seven years old. I had no clue about the life of Jesus at that time. I generally study for about nine hours a day on the subject. My routine has been to wake up and begin with reading a Gospel and taking notes, then moving on to one of the letters and doing the same. After that I'll do some light reading of Proverbs, Psalms, or Ecclesiastes (the book I read daily more often than once) to cool my mind down.

With that schedule and for such a short time I've gathered a lot of information and have yet to put it all in order. This is where my questions about Islam and such come into play. I feel that my study might possibly be in vain if another religion also claims to have the answers. I then begin researching that and become lost in their writings. I become very intense in whatever project takes my interest and must apologize for seeming of a wavering faith in christianity.

I hope this clears some things up for you. I hope you don't think I was insulting your faith as a catholic in the other thread (I was questioning the actions of my family) and I'm sorry if I've offended.

[Gman]

Hold the phone here guys... I think it is ok to ask questions here even if it is about other religions... It's ok in my book, if not Atticus you can PM me about it...

Atticus, since you started with the Quran, what else would you like to discuss about Islam? I own two Quran's and would be happy to talk about it..

Also Judah who posts here frequently has a good website about the teachings of Islam...

http://www.visiblesoul.org/judah/blog/?cat=4
http://www.visiblesoul.org/judah/blog/?page_id=57

Let's keep the ball rolling here..

G -

[Judah]

Atticus, when you come to read the Qur'an, there are some basic things you need to keep in mind.

The book is put together in such a way that the longest chapters (surah) are presented first and ordered such that they progress according to length so that the shortest ones come last. They are not presented in chronological order. This is essential to know in order that you may understand how contradictory verses are to be interpreted.

Yes, there are some completely contradictory verses in the Qur'an which result from the situations in which Muhammad found himself at different times during his life. It was claimed by Muhammad that the Angel Gabriel revealed the words to him and that they came directly from Allah. You might ask yourself why Allah would contradict himself in such a serious way ~ that is indeed a very good question. But that aside, Muhammad got around the problem of contradiction by claiming that it was revealed to him that the later verses, where they conflict with earlier ones, actually abrogate or nullify those earlier ones. This is known as the Islamic theological principle of al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh or nasikh. Now you can see why it is important to know that you just cannot read the Qur'an from cover to cover like you would any other book, but you must know which surah abrogate which other surah in order to understand it correctly.

However, keep on reading as it is important to do so in order to understand just what Islam is about. To learn which surah are abrogated, click on the link in the paragraph above. You will find that the peaceful ones written in the earlier part of Muhammad's life have been abrogated by later ones which are ruthlessly violent and teach torture and murder of the rest of us kafir (infidels) or non-Muslims. The word kafir, by the way, is the most derogatory term equating us with swine and filth and stupidity deserving the utmost derision. You will discover the mission of Islam, that of total world domination with submission of all people (including yourself whether you like it or not) to Allah, by torture if necessary, or else death to you.

No, I am not kidding you one bit. Read on and discover all this for yourself. Or if you like, check out the links Gman has provided in his post above, and the many other links on those pages of my website to other sites with credible, intelligent, well-substantiated, authoritative information for your perusal.

There is also much else written on Islam on numerous threads on this forum. Do a search on my name for where I have posted as an easy way to find them.

Here is an article written by ex-Muslim, Abdullah Al Araby, on the subject The Bible vs. The Qur'an which may also interest you and others reading this post.

[Byblos]

Hold the phone here guys... I think it is ok to ask questions here even if it is about other religions... It's ok in my book, if not Atticus you can PM me about it...

Atticus, since you started with the Quran, what else would you like to discuss about Islam? I own two Quran's and would be happy to talk about it..

Also Judah who posts here frequently has a good website about the teachings of Islam...

http://www.visiblesoul.org/judah/blog/?cat=4
http://www.visiblesoul.org/judah/blog/?page_id=57

Let's keep the ball rolling here..

G -

I totally agree with you Gman. I never said Atticus can't ask any questions about other religions. All I was saying was that it should not be done with the mindset that Islam could be the true religion. I wanted to make that clear.

I do have a confession to make, I've lived a good portion of my life with Moslems, interact with them almost on a daily basis (job related), have friends who are, but know almost nothing about the religion itself. Being from the Middle East, I automatically put my guards up when the subject comes up and have never felt the need or the desire to learn (which is uncharacteristic of me, by the way, because I am a seeker of knowledge at heart). I see now that I have put blinders on for far too long and intend to change that.

Judah and Gman, I commend you both for your insight, your knowledge, and your dedication to strengthen your faith by seeking to learn about other faiths. I firmly intend to make use of those links.

God bless,

Byblos.

[FFC]

Atticus, you are definitely on the right track and I applaud you. Your bible reading and study of the scriptures put many Christians to shame including myself. I truly believe that God is drawing you to Himself. You are searching for the truth and that is also commendable. I think the main thing you are trying to do is find out which truth is The truth. I have been reading and studying the bible for 28 years and the evidence that The truth is Jesus is overwhelming! John 14:6

Every single prophecy regarding Jesus was fulfilled by Him. The odds of any one man doing this are a string of 13 trillions in a row!

Jesus claimed and demonstrated all the attributes of God.
Jesus said he was God. (one with the Father, if you have seen Him you have seen the father, called Himself the I am, etc.)


Jesus forgave sins which only God can do.
If you asked any of the antagonistic Jewish leaders back then if He claimed to be God they would have wholeheartedly agreed...which is why they crucified him as a blasphemer.

Jesus did all these things and claimed all these things and backed them all up with miracles that no other person could ever do at the level that He did.

The coup de gras was when He rose from the dead. Skeptics have tried for centuries to refute this and have failed. The evidence that He actually did this is overwhelming. Check out Lee Strobels " A Case for Christ".

There is only one truth and Jesus more that backed up the claim. If we can find someone who did it better then I'd love to meet him.

God bless you in your search, though it seems to me it's right in front of you. Now it's up to you to believe it and surrender your life to Him.

[Atticus Finch]

Thanks for the excellent links and posts everyone. I've read through them and appreciate them.

FCC, I have a hard time fully believing that Jesus was God simply through fulfilled prophecy. I'm afraid when it comes to this I sort of become one of those who doubt Jesus' own claims as are recorded in the Bible. Let's say for the sake of this thread that Jesus existed as a man and was an excellent man. He had some neat concepts which angered people who thought he was dangerous. He was killed. Years after writers began to tell about his life and while doing so they studied the old scriptures and filled in whichever prophecy they felt like.

...

I know that is about as valid a theory as believing that people are regularly abducted by UFO's as they sleep. That's why I do believe that Jesus was and that he said what is recorded in the Bible. I can see no other reason why people would let themselves be killed for something if it were all a lie. That's my biggest helper in determining the validity of Christ. The NT letters often begin as "A slave of Jesus Christ" which shows both loyalty, reverence, and love.

I suppose that I feel like a jury who is reviewing every "truth" in evidence to discover which is the actual Truth.

[Judah]

C.S. Lewis approached this notion that Jesus was just a good man, a good moral teacher but nothing more, with an argument that you should consider, Atticus.

He noted that you have only three options in what to believe about Jesus.
They are as follows:

1. Jesus was a liar - he told great fibs about himself and his identity
2. Jesus was a lunatic, or mentally ill - he had delusions of grandeur, making claims to be part of the Godhead
3. Jesus is Lord, the Son of God, just as He claimed and is claimed of Him.

Lewis argues that you can not claim Jesus to be a good moral teacher and not anything more. A good moral teacher does not tell lies about himself and deceive others into his identity.

Sorry Atticus, Jesus simply does not leave that option open to you.

I strongly recommend the book Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.
This investigative journalist has put together the results of considerable research and argument regarding all the claims made that Jesus is the Son of God. His book will give you a thorough examination of the evidence that should help you make up your mind. This is fascinating reading and not too heavy at all.

[Judah]

The following is my own Review of Lee Strobel's book "Case for Christ" which appears on the parent site of my own website:

Lee Strobel, former legal editor at the Chicago Tribune and a former non-Christian skeptic, sets out in his book to "determine if there's credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God." He interviews 13 devout Christian Biblical scholars and puts to each of them basic questions concerning credible evidence that supports the divinity of Jesus. He continues to probe their answers to produce a compact and interesting summary of the apologia that exists to support the case for Christ.

One major criticism of his work is that no critics of Christianity are interviewed, and so no counter-arguments are explored except very briefly in the form of questions to develop the answer of his interviewee. The result therefore is hardly balanced reporting although he does produce a good case for one side of the debate, a case that cannot be dismissed without serious consideration.

All the same, as the publisher comments on the back page: "This remarkable book reads like a captivating, fast-paced novel. But it's not fiction. It's a riveting quest for the truth about history's most compelling figure. What will your verdict be in The Case for Christ?"

The questions asked (and the scholars who respond) are as follows:
1. Can the biographies of Jesus be trusted? (Dr Craig Blomberg)
2. Do the biographies of Jesus stand up to scrutiny? (Dr Craig Blomberg)
3. Were Jesus' biographies reliably preserved for us? (Dr Bruce Metzger)
4. Is there credible evidence for Jesus outside His biographies? (Dr Edwin Yamauchi)
5. Does archaeology confirm or contradict Jesus' biographies? (Dr John McRay)
6. Is the Jesus of history the same as the Jesus of faith? (Dr Gregory Boyd)
7. Was Jesus really convinced that He was the Son of God? (Dr Ben Witherington III)
8. Was Jesus crazy when He claimed to be the Son of God? (Dr Gary Collins)
9. Did Jesus fulfill the attributes of God? (Dr D. A. Carson)
10. Did Jesus - and Jesus alone - match the identity of the Messiah? (Louis Lapides, M.Div., Th.M.)
11. Was Jesus' death a sham and His resurrection a hoax? (Dr Alexander Metherell)
12. Was Jesus' body really absent from His tomb? (Dr William Craig Lane)
13. Was Jesus seen alive after His death on the cross? (Dr Gary Habermas)
14. Are there any supporting facts that point to the resurrection? ((Dr J. P. Moreland)

There is a summary conclusion that addreses the question: What does the evidence establish, and what does it mean today?
Strobel's bibliographical recommendations at the end of each chapter seem to be generally excellent.

This is a worthwhile book for those seeking intelligent rational answers in support of Christian beliefs about Jesus.

[Judah]

{...clip...} I do have a confession to make, I've lived a good portion of my life with Moslems, interact with them almost on a daily basis (job related), have friends who are, but know almost nothing about the religion itself. Being from the Middle East, I automatically put my guards up when the subject comes up and have never felt the need or the desire to learn (which is uncharacteristic of me, by the way, because I am a seeker of knowledge at heart). I see now that I have put blinders on for far too long and intend to change that.

Judah and Gman, I commend you both for your insight, your knowledge, and your dedication to strengthen your faith by seeking to learn about other faiths. I firmly intend to make use of those links.

God bless,

Byblos.

Byblos, it is good that you are willing to take a look at Islam in order to understand its tenets of faith and discover what it is about. Doing so will help give you a greater understanding of the dynamics operating back in your homeland. Since you have Muslim friends, you may find yourself questioning the depth and nature of their friendship with you, a Christian. The Qur'an instructs Muslims to make no friends of Christians or Jews or any other nonbeliever. You will have to decide for yourself the degree to which each of these friends is following his faith, and whether you can still trust them as before. That may be a little painful and cause you some distress. However, not all Muslims are literate in their own faith, nor are they as devout as others may be. But they are all at risk of being pressured into being more devout or accused of apostacy which puts them at grave risk of their lives. It is a very difficult situation for them to be in.

My own study of Islam was not to strengthen my Christian faith in any way, but was sparked off by the events 5 years ago, and with the excellent guidance of Christian 2 here on this forum. There is a wealth of information "out there" on the internet and on discovering the huge ignorance of so many westerners on the subject, I decided to put together a resource of credible, truthful, information to which I could point others wanting to explore the subject themselves. So many lies have been propagated about Islam, especially that it is a religion of peace and tolerance. That is the absolutely LAST thing that it is, and Osama bin Laden is not pushing some deformed version of it upon us. His version is the truthful genuine Islam of the Qur'an. Our world leaders are advised by Islamic clerics who lie to hide this fact as it suits their cause that we are fooled into some kind of complacency as Islam gathers momentum and marches on to achieve its real mission of total world domination.

I am pleased to hear that you are ready to learn more about this totalitarian ideology that masquerades cloaked as a religion and has done so for 14 centuries. The more people who awaken to the truth about Islam, the better. As long as we are deceived and cannot see the truth about it, the greater we are at risk of losing our freedom and our own western civilization. These are not extremist words. Read the Qur'an to verify what I say.

[Gman]

I totally agree with you Gman. I never said Atticus can't ask any questions about other religions. All I was saying was that it should not be done with the mindset that Islam could be the true religion. I wanted to make that clear.

No problem here John... I get ya now... Btw, I think you made a good point when you said "It is literally a matter of eternal life or death" because the fact is that it is... It is very important that we get into God's memory banks than a human's memory bank or a computer's memory bank because humans and computers will always fade away... God NEVER fades away..

Looks like Judah is already on this one... Say the word Islam or Quran and it's whamo time... The cape crusader stikes again.. Yeooow...

G -

[Judah]

...er, the Kiwi Crusader?