Evidence for God from Science

Ezekiel 23

The Adultery of Two Sisters
1 This message came to me from the LORD:2 "Son of man, once there were two sisters who were daughters of the same mother.3 They became prostitutes in Egypt. Even as young girls, they allowed men to fondle their breasts.4 The older girl was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. I married them, and they bore me sons and daughters. I am speaking of Samaria and Jerusalem, for Oholah is Samaria and Oholibah is Jerusalem.
5 "Then Oholah lusted after other lovers instead of me, and she gave her love to the Assyrian officers.6 They were all attractive young men, captains and commanders dressed in handsome blue, charioteers driving their horses.7 And so she prostituted herself with the most desirable men of Assyria, worshiping their idols* and defiling herself.8 For when she left Egypt, she did not leave her spirit of prostitution behind. She was still as lewd as in her youth, when the Egyptians slept with her, fondled her breasts, and used her as a prostitute.
9 "And so I handed her over to her Assyrian lovers, whom she desired so much.10 They stripped her, took away her children as their slaves, and then killed her. After she received her punishment, her reputation was known to every woman in the land.
11 "Yet even though Oholibah saw what had happened to Oholah, her sister, she followed right in her footsteps. And she was even more depraved, abandoning herself to her lust and prostitution.12 She fawned over all the Assyrian officers—those captains and commanders in handsome uniforms, those charioteers driving their horses—all of them attractive young men.13 I saw the way she was going, defiling herself just like her older sister.
14 "Then she carried her prostitution even further. She fell in love with pictures that were painted on a wall—pictures of Babylonian* military officers, outfitted in striking red uniforms.15 Handsome belts encircled their waists, and flowing turbans crowned their heads. They were dressed like chariot officers from the land of Babylonia.*16 When she saw these paintings, she longed to give herself to them, so she sent messengers to Babylonia to invite them to come to her.17 So they came and committed adultery with her, defiling her in the bed of love. After being defiled, however, she rejected them in disgust.
18 "In the same way, I became disgusted with Oholibah and rejected her, just as I had rejected her sister, because she flaunted herself before them and gave herself to satisfy their lusts.19 Yet she turned to even greater prostitution, remembering her youth when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 She lusted after lovers with genitals as large as a donkey's and emissions like those of a horse. 21 And so, Oholibah, you relived your former days as a young girl in Egypt, when you first allowed your breasts to be fondled.

.........

Word of God?

Wouldn't the Word of God in a preserved form as we believe the Bible to be have material suited for all age groups? I can't imagine such a story being shown outside of an XXX book store.

She lusted after men with genitals as large as a donkey's and semen emissions like those of a horse?

Strangely, I never hear this verse spoken at church or in Bible study.

Discuss.

Ezekiel got his point across didn't he?

Chapter 16 is just as crude. Israel's harlotry was indeed disgusting.

Atticus Finch wrote:Discuss.

Please go ahead Atticus, tell us what you think of this passage and its intent.

puritan lad wrote:Ezekiel got his point across didn't he?

Chapter 16 is just as crude. Israel's harlotry was indeed disgusting.

Very true. This is also a very good and graphic example of the results of the depravity of sin and where it can take an individual.

FFC wrote:

puritan lad wrote:Ezekiel got his point across didn't he?

Chapter 16 is just as crude. Israel's harlotry was indeed disgusting.

Very true. This is also a very good and graphic example of the results of the depravity of sin and where it can take an individual.

Or an entire nation (or people), for that matter.

I always find it interesting to see people point to these types of passages in the OT and somewhat gleefully note the depravity and utilize this to try and discredit God and the Bible.

I see it as quite the opposite. If the Bible were designed as a man-made document it would seek to gloss over or ignore this type of material. The fact that the Bible does not, argues in favor of its inspiration, candor and willingness to address and record accurately exactly how depraved people can be, and correspondingly how patient, and how merciful God has been and is.

What do you think the significance of it is Atticus?

It certainly seems like you've possibly misrepresented yourself in terms of a seeker and your motives are becoming clearer as time progresses.

There are plenty of other very strong statements throughout the Scripture that indicate the wickedness and depravity of man.

Canuckster1127 wrote: It certainly seems like you've possibly misrepresented yourself in terms of a seeker and your motives are becoming clearer as time progresses.
.

You continually bring this up to me. It simply is not true. You think that I came to this website as a "wolf in sheeps clothing" do you not? That I came first with innocent posts and then with valid questions about serious points which are not only for christianity?

Have you considered the fact that I may have signed up here as a naive searcher and after finding answers became disillusioned by the whole thing? After that may feel confused and searching answers to calm that worry? Getting a PM telling me that my questions aren't welcome anymore is shocking.

Atticus Finch wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:
It certainly seems like you've possibly misrepresented yourself in terms of a seeker and your motives are becoming clearer as time progresses.
.

You continually bring this up to me. It simply is not true. You think that I came to this website as a "wolf in sheeps clothing" do you not? That I came first with innocent posts and then with valid questions about serious points which are not only for christianity?

Have you considered the fact that I may have signed up here as a naive searcher and after finding answers became disillusioned by the whole thing? After that may feel confused and searching answers to calm that worry? Getting a PM telling me that my questions aren't welcome anymore is shocking.

Atticus,

You certainly do not project yourself as a naive person so there's no way you could've been mistaken for one. If you were a sincere seeker, however, (and I'm not doubting you, I'm just posing the question) you'd at least ask questions rather than make inflammatory, emphatic statements without any backing whatsoever. You would also interact with the responses you've been given rather than simply move on to a new subject.

If you are a sincere seeker then let's go back to the basics.

Atticus, do you believe in God?

Byblos wrote:
Atticus, do you believe in God?

Thank you for being more patient with me. I have no hidden motives and am not trying to make everyone flee from Christianity at all. Religion is a very difficult subject because the results may have eternal consequences; trying to decide truth from fiction is like walking on a string across two tall buildings.

I do believe in God. I was raised not to but nevertheless I do believe in God. I also believe that since God created all that we know, then He would communicate with us. So, I believe in Divine Revelation on the whole; I have difficulty believing that Jesus Christ is God in the Trinity.

Atticus Finch wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Atticus, do you believe in God?

Thank you for being more patient with me. I have no hidden motives and am not trying to make everyone flee from Christianity at all. Religion is a very difficult subject because the results may have eternal consequences; trying to decide truth from fiction is like walking on a string across two tall buildings.

Good. Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, religion is a difficult subject, I agree. In order for one to understand a very difficult subject, however, one needs to be put aside all their pre-conceived opinions and prejudices and try to tackle the subject matter with an open mind. The question then becomes how open is your mind?

Atticus Finch wrote:I do believe in God. I was raised not to but nevertheless I do believe in God.

Didn't you say you were raised Catholic? (:shock: Dear Lord, the implications ... ). Just kidding, anyway:

Atticus Finch wrote: I also believe that since God created all that we know, then He would communicate with us. So, I believe in Divine Revelation on the whole; I have difficulty believing that Jesus Christ is God in the Trinity.

Ok, much better. So you believe in God and you also have no problem that this God can interact with his creation in order to make himself known. The problem you're having is in some of the methods with which God chose to reveal himself.

Let me ask you this then, do you believe in an all-powerful God, capable of doing anything he wishes, capable of revealing himself any which way he sees fit?

Atticus Finch wrote: Word of God?

Wouldn't the Word of God in a preserved form as we believe the Bible to be have material suited for all age groups? I can't imagine such a story being shown outside of an XXX book store.

She lusted after men with genitals as large as a donkey's and semen emissions like those of a horse?

Strangely, I never hear this verse spoken at church or in Bible study.

Discuss.

Atticus, and what about all the wars in the Bible? Should we take those stories out too?

We live in a very violent and evil society... We see it everywhere. That is why people wrote about it. Sometimes they wrote things as they perceived it. I'm trying to see how this could be a problem..

Byblos wrote:
Didn't you say you were raised Catholic? (:shock: Dear Lord, the implications ... ). Just kidding, anyway:

My parents are both agnostic/atheist. My Dad re-married and we now live with Catholics.

Byblos wrote: Ok, much better. So you believe in God and you also have no problem that this God can interact with his creation in order to make himself known. The problem you're having is in some of the methods with which God chose to reveal himself.

Just a common problem which many share. "Why can't God just come and show Himself clearly?" which of course opens up a whole new book of problems which would arise.

Byblos wrote: Let me ask you this then, do you believe in an all-powerful God, capable of doing anything he wishes, capable of revealing himself any which way he sees fit?

And now we lead to Jesus, right? That's fine.

I do not doubt that in some wildly mysterious way (Seriously -- God --- the creator of All embodied in human form while remaining fully His own and not simply a Man) God could make Himself into human form. Begetting a Son as we have it I do not really question. My problem lies in the fact that the All-Powerful God brought more problems and confusions than there probably were before Jesus. For example, the Council of Nicea met at first to establish a true creed about Jesus and His relation to God. What if they had decided otherwise and not established the Trinitarian creed? I understand that we say they were guided by the "Holy Spirit" in making decisions; telling uninspired works from those which weren't, etc.

I find the most compelling evidence for not having full trust in the Trinitarian approach is that Jesus never mentioned it clearly. We like to point out certain verses which seem to point to the Triune God but they are vague and some have been found to be added in at a later time.

Everyone: I am just confused. I have no hidden motives. Please do not ban me from the site. I enjoy learning about these things. I am not a trouble maker and have never been. My interests are sincere; I want to find the Truth so that I can lead my life in it until I die. I do not want to be in belief of a false teaching, or a false doctrine.

Atticus wrote:I find the most compelling evidence for not having full trust in the Trinitarian approach is that Jesus never mentioned it clearly. We like to point out certain verses which seem to point to the Triune God but they are vague and some have been found to be added in at a later time.

So if you could find some real evidence that Jesus really was God in the flesh you would receive Him as your Lord and Savior?

FFC wrote: So if you could find some real evidence that Jesus really was God in the flesh you would receive Him as your Lord and Savior?

Well, real evidence is a tricky name for something. Are the Gospels real evidence? Paul's letters?

Believe me, I would readily accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour if one could show me a convincing argument for such things. I would love to. It would make life very pleasant and very simple. I just haven't been shown a convincing statement which can convince me.

Atticus Finch wrote:Everyone: I am just confused. I have no hidden motives. Please do not ban me from the site. I enjoy learning about these things. I am not a trouble maker and have never been. My interests are sincere; I want to find the Truth so that I can lead my life in it until I die. I do not want to be in belief of a false teaching, or a false doctrine.

Before Byblos responds... I agree with with you in some respect. Sometimes there can be confusing things in the Bible. Just look up some of these debates such as "free will", "faith" or "Calvinism vs. Arminianism".

I think we shouldn't make Christianity so hard... If you are doing these simple commandments and understanding these simple commandments by Christ (below)... YOU ARE A LIVING THE LIFE OF A CHRISTIAN.

Matthew 22:36-40 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

1 John 3:11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

That's all... The question is do we always live by this? I would say probably not.