Evidence for God from Science

Did you ever notice that the last time "Hell" is mentioned in the King James Bible it is empty. - Rev. 20:13,14

DonCameron wrote:Did you ever notice that the last time "Hell" is mentioned in the King James Bible it is empty. - Rev. 20:13,14

Don,

First, welcome to the board. Glad you are here.

The word is Hades and is equated with the grave or "sheol" not the entire concept of hell. What do you suppose the "Lake of Fire" into which it is cast is referring to?

Probably a good case here for examining the original language and not simply projecting something onto the KJV which the translation here makes convenient.

Bart

Hi Bart,

You asked...

What do you suppose the "Lake of Fire" into which it ("hades" or the KJ "hell" is cast is referring to?

I have supposed that "the Lake of Fire" is referring to "the second death." - Rev. 20:14

I don't recall anyone saying that, "Hell is the second death" or that, "The second death is hell."

What is your understanding where the above verse says that the condition of "death" will be thrown into the second death?

Don

DonCameron wrote:Hi Bart,

You asked...

What do you suppose the "Lake of Fire" into which it ("hades" or the KJ "hell" is cast is referring to?

I have supposed that "the Lake of Fire" is referring to "the second death." - Rev. 20:14

I don't recall anyone saying that, "Hell is the second death" or that, "The second death is hell."

What is your understanding where the above verse says that the condition of "death" will be thrown into the second death?

Don

Don

Well, for clarification, here's the passage in its entirety.

Rev 20:11-15

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

It looks to me that this is referring to the Great White Throne judgment. It appears to indicate to me that with this judgment, Death itself as the consequence of sin is ended, and further that all who have ever lived and died will be summoned to this judgement. Verse 15 ends the thought by indicating that those not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire.

What point are you trying to make? Are you arguing for universal salvation that no-one will experience hell? Are you arguing for annihilation, rather than eternal torment? Are you arguing that hell is not a reality?

Not trying to put words in your mouth. Just asking for clarification.

Bart,

I had asked about the significance of the fact that the condition of death will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire. - Rev. 20:14

You explained...

(Revelation 20:14) appears to indicate to me that...Death itself...(will evenually be) ended.

If "the second death" brings an end to the condition of "death," then that gives me the feeling that "the second death" would also bring an end to the "hades" (King James "hell") of Luke 16:23?

If "the second death" brings an end to death and hades (verse 14), does it also bring an end to all those who are thrown into that same lake? - Verse 15

Don

Don wrote:If "the second death" brings an end to the condition of "death," then that gives me the feeling that "the second death" would also bring an end to the "hades" (King James "hell") of Luke 16:23?

Hi Don, welcome aboard. You ask some very good questions! I don't have the answers but it occurs to me that the first hell (hades) may have been a temporary holding place until it and death were cast into "The lake of fire" which burns forever and ever. Regardless of whether there is an end to hades, their doesn't seem to be an end to "The Lake of fire" which from what I can ascertain from the scriptures, is the final abode of the wicked...including the devil and his angels.

Take care
FFC

DonCameron wrote:Bart,

I had asked about the significance of the fact that the condition of death will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire. - Rev. 20:14

You explained...

(Revelation 20:14) appears to indicate to me that...Death itself...(will evenually be) ended.

If "the second death" brings an end to the condition of "death," then that gives me the feeling that "the second death" would also bring an end to the "hades" (King James "hell") of Luke 16:23?

If "the second death" brings an end to death and hades (verse 14), does it also bring an end to all those who are thrown into that same lake? - Verse 15

Don

Don,

Again I'm going to have to ask you to clarify what you're attempting to say here. The KJV regularly confuses the words for sheol, hades and hell in a manner that makes it desirable to examine the original language to clarify what it referring to in every instance. Sheol or hades often refers to the grave in the sense of physical death or the resting place of the physical body after death.

This passage in Revelation, first needs to be taken in the context of the book itself which is highly symbolic and apocolyptic and in view of the teaching of the entire Bible which I believe clearly portrays hell or the lake of fire as it is referenced here in this particular passage as prepared for Lucifer or Satan and the heavenly host that followed him in rebellion and will include those not found in the book of life, who I believe indicates those not participating in the Salvation purchased by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Here's an article from our main board addressing some of these issues that may help to clarify.

What Will Hell be Like?

Introduction

This page will examine what the Bible says about hell and what it will be like. Contrary to the doctrines of Catholicism, there is no purgatory, but only the choice between heaven and hell. Although there are quite extensive descriptions of heaven in the Bible, there are no really detailed descriptions of hell. Most of the descriptions of hell merely describe the fate of its inhabitants.

What is hell like?The most common description of hell is that of fire.1 Here is a list of some of these descriptions:

fire and brimstone, burning wind, fiery oven
flames of fire, judgment by fire, unquenchable fire
furnace of fire, eternal fire, eternal punishment
fiery hell, pits of darkness, lake of fire

Since there could possibly be a lot of party people in hell, one might think that it will be one big party. However, the problem is that the likes of Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and other unsavory characters will be there also. In order to keep those people from tormenting their neighbors excessively, all the inhabitants will be restrained through punishment (with the amount increasing with the degree of restraint required). This list below tells of some of the things that the inhabitants of hell will be going through:

smoke of their torment2, no rest day and night2
weeping and gnashing of teeth3, tormented4
death5, their worm does not die6
destruction7

Why does there need to be a hell?

This is a good question, since many would say that God could just destroy the evil people, rather than condemn them to a place of torment. The problem is that God made spiritual beings (humans and angels) as eternal creatures. In fact, the Bible says that God has put the knowledge of the eternal nature of our spirits within each of us:

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

Since God is absolutely holy, He cannot be in the direct presence of sinful creatures. Therefore, all who are sinful must be separated from God8 and cannot be allowed to enter into His home (heaven). Hell is the place where these people must go, away from the presence of God. For more information, see Why Would a Loving God Send Billions of People to Hell?.

Eternal torment or eternal destruction

The classic Christian interpretation of hell is a place of eternal torment. However, the Bible also includes a number of verses that suggest that those who are condemned to hell are eventually destroyed. Here is a list of verse citations that promote each scenario (see the references to read the verses themselves):

Eternal Torment9 Eternal Destruction10

Matthew 8:29, 18:8, 25:41, 46, Luke 16:23-24, 28, Hebrews 6:1-2, 2 Peter 2:9, Jude 1:7, Revelation 14:11 Matthew 7:13, John 5:24, John 8:51, Romans 6:21, 23, 9:22, 2 Corinthians 7:10, Philippians 3:18-19, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, James 1:15, 1 John 3:14, 2 Peter 3:7, 3:16, Revelation 2:11, 19:20, 20:6, 10, 14-15, 21:8

It is possible that hell will involve both torment (until the day of judgment) and eventual destruction.

Who will go to hell?

Those who reject Jesus Christ cannot enter into the presence of God,8 and so must be separated from Him11 until the white throne judgment.12 The Bible gives several lists of people who will not be in heaven.13 A summary of the activities that keep people out of heaven is listed in the table below.

idolatry, adultery, prostitution
theft, greed, drunkenness
swindling, impurity, witchcraft
discord, jealousy, fits of rage
dissensions, factions, and envy orgies
lying, cowardice, unbelief
sorcery, sexual immorality, homosexual offenses
slander, hatred, selfish ambition
abomination, murder

The list is fairly extensive and includes some things that all of us have done. At the end of the first creation we will appear before the great white throne of God.12 God will go through the "books" to see if we have committed any of the deeds listed in the table above.13 In addition, the names were checked to see if they were written in the book of life.12 Anyone whose name is not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, based upon the evil deeds that they had done in their lives.14 God does not grade on the curve, so all people who have been guilty of any one of the violations above will be sent to the lake of fire, which is the second death.15

If you have committed any of the violations of God's laws listed above, you should expect to go to the lake of fire. As with any transgression of law, we are convicted on the basis of our guilt with regard to the crime. The good things that we have done do not change or impact the charge for which we stand trial. If you don't think that you will like it in hell, try heaven instead. However, you are not going to get there on the basis of the "good" things you have done in your life, but through belief.16 Click here to find out how to get there.


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Related PagesWhat Will Heaven be Like?
Going to Heaven Are We?
My Attorney
Why Would a Loving God Send Billions of People to Hell?

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References

Upon the wicked He will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup. (Psalms 11:6)

You will make them as a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The LORD will swallow them up in His wrath, And fire will devour them. (Psalms 21:9)

For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. (Isaiah 66:15)

For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many. (Isaiah 66:16)

"And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:12)

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matthew 7:19)

"Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. (Matthew 13:40)

"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42)

"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth, and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:49-50)

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. (Matthew 18:8)
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41)

"And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, (Mark 9:43)

"And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. (Mark 9:47-48)

"And His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Luke 3:17)

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6)

And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. (James 3:6)
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:10-11)

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11)

"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

"And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. (Mark 9:47-48)

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (Matthew 7:23)

And behold, they cried out, saying, "What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" (Matthew 8:29)

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. (Matthew 18:8)

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41)

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)

"And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.' (Luke 16:23-24)

for I have five brothers-- that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' (Luke 16:28)

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (Hebrews 6:1-2)

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, (2 Peter 2:9)

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11)

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. (Matthew 7:13)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death." (John 8:51)

Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. (Romans 6:21)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:22)

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)

For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. (Philippians 3:18-19)

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. (James 1:15)

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. (1 John 3:14)

But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7)

as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)

'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.' (Revelation 2:11)

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14)

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, (2 Peter 2:9)

And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds... And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-12, 15)

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (Revelation 20:12)

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

and nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Revelation 21:27)

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/hell.html
Last Modified May 13, 2006

There are four words in the Bible that are translated “hell:”

1) Sheol (used only in the O.T.) The doctrine of hell is made clear in the O.T. by the two-fold use of the word “sheol.” Sheol can be biblically defined as:
* The “grave” in which the unseen state of the dead (See - Eccl 9:10) both bad (See - Job 24:19 & Psa 55:15 & Prov 9:18 & 23:13,14) and good (See - Gen 37:35 & Job 14:13 & Psa 16:10/Acts 2:27,31) are laid when they die,
* The “realm of the unsaved dead; the conscience life beyond the grave; hell” (i.e., a pit of fire below our world where one is separated from God for all eternity - Psa 9:17 & Ezk 31:16-18 & Isa 5:14 & 14:12-15/Rev 20:7-10 & Hos 13: 14/I Cor 15:54,55)

2) Hades (used 11 times in the N.T. to describe the temporary abode of all the unsaved - Mt 11:23 & 16:18 & Lk 10:15 & 16:23 & Acts 2:27,31 & I Cor 15:55 & Rev 1:18 & 6:8 & 20:13,14)

3) Geenna (represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom, i.e., the valley Tophet, and is used 12 times in the N.T. to describe the final and eternal abode of all the unsaved - Mt 5:22,29,30 & 10:28 & 18:9 & 23:15,33 & Mk 9:43,45,47 & Lk 12:5 & Jms 3:6)

4) Tartaroo (used only once in the N.T. to describe the abode of those angels who sinned by leaving their first estate - II Pet 2:4)

YLTYLT wrote:There are four words in the Bible that are translated “hell:”

1) Sheol (used only in the O.T.) The doctrine of hell is made clear in the O.T. by the two-fold use of the word “sheol.” Sheol can be biblically defined as:
* The “grave” in which the unseen state of the dead (See - Eccl 9:10) both bad (See - Job 24:19 & Psa 55:15 & Prov 9:18 & Prov 23:13,14) and good (See - Gen 37:35 & Job 14:13 & Psa 16:10/Acts 2:27,31) are laid when they die,
* The “realm of the unsaved dead; the conscience life beyond the grave; hell” (i.e., a pit of fire below our world where one is separated from God for all eternity - Psa 9:17 & Ezk 31:16-18 & Isa 5:14 & Isa 14:12-15/Rev 20:7-10 & Hos 13: 14/I Cor 15:54,55)

2) Hades (used 11 times in the N.T. to describe the temporary abode of all the unsaved - Mt 11:23 & Mt 16:18 & Lk 10:15 & Lk 16:23 & Acts 2:27,31 & I Cor 15:55 & Rev 1:18 & Rev 6:8 & Rev 20:13,14)

3) Geenna (represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom, i.e., the valley Tophet, and is used 12 times in the N.T. to describe the final and eternal abode of all the unsaved - Mt 5:22,29,30 & Mt 10:28 & Mt 18:9 & Mt 23:15,33 & Mk 9:43,45,47 & Lk 12:5 & Jms 3:6)

4) Tartaroo (used only once in the N.T. to describe the abode of those angels who sinned by leaving their first estate - II Pet 2:4)

Thanks for the further clarification YLTYLT. I've embedded the scripture references above so any wanting to hotlink to them may do so with ease.

Bart

Hi FCC,

You said...

The "Lake of fire" which from what I can ascertain from the scriptures, is the final abode of the wicked...including the devil and his angels.

That's the way I understand it too.

I assume this it the place of the "everlasting punishment" mentioned by Jesus at Matthew 25:46.

I have noticed several times in the Bible (as in the above Scripture) where the alternative to this everlasting punishment is "everlasting life." I don't recall ever seeing in the Bible where it contrasts everlasting life in heaven with everlasting life in hell.

In Romans 6:23, for example, it contrasts "everlasting life" and "death." In John 3:16 the word "destroyed" or "perish" is used as the alternative to "everlasting life." Seems to me that the words "destroy" and "perish" mean something like, "To bring to nothing by putting out of existence."

Although I don't think the Bible ever uses the expression "everlasting death," I have wondered it this is in fact the alternative to "everlasting life."

Since the book of Revelation is admitted to have been presented in "signs" and symbols (verse 1), I have also wondered if that "lake of fire" is just a symbol of everlasting death. To me, death that lasts forever would be a pretty severe punishment.

Is there a literal lake of fire someplace in the Universe that will eventually contain the condition of death (how can that happen?), and the empty place called "Hades" (King James "hell") and Satan the Devil and his angels along with perhaps billions of wicked people? Or will all the above simply cease to exist in the above symbolic "lake"?

Don

Bart,

You said...

This page will examine what the Bible says about hell and what it will be like. Contrary to the doctrines of Catholicism, there is no purgatory, but only the choice between heaven and hell.

But from what I have seen in the Bible, the choice that it offers is not between heaven and hell but rather between everlasting life and death.

Can you refer to some Scriptures that show the choice is between heaven and hell?

Don

Hi Don,
I think Romans 6:23 is an excellent example of the contrast between everlasting/eternal life and Everlasting death/hell.

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Death is spiritual death, which leads to physical death, which ultimately leads to complete separation from God (the second death, which is the Lake of fire). That is what hell is. Whether the flames, as I have always believed, are literal or symbolic I don't know, but I do see in the scriptures that however this separation from God manifests itself there seems to be elements of extreme physical, emotional, and mental pain forever.

DonCameron wrote:Bart,

You said...

This page will examine what the Bible says about hell and what it will be like. Contrary to the doctrines of Catholicism, there is no purgatory, but only the choice between heaven and hell.

But from what I have seen in the Bible, the choice that it offers is not between heaven and hell but rather between everlasting life and death.

Can you refer to some Scriptures that show the choice is between heaven and hell?

Don

Don,

I'm smiling as I write this.

Why would I feel the need to find Scripture to suit your or anyone else's affection in this regard when you have multiple verses and information that demonstrates that the two are equated?

Why don't you interact with the information given and the scripture cited to explain why you believe the scripture teaches otherwise, if in fact you do?

The scripture never uses the term trinity either, but that does not require me to find a verse that uses the term in order to prove that is what the Scripture teaches, when there is abundant evidence that that indeed is key to understanding the nature of God.

You asked a question, you've been given abundant evidence to work with with regard to the subject. A conversation implies two sides interacting and responding to what is said, not simply attempting with continued questions to direct the conversation while ignoring what is said.

If you're interested in a conversation, please respond and interact with what you've been given.

Thanks!

Bart

Hi again Bart,

You said to me...

Please respond and interact with what you've been given.

I thought that's what I was doing.

For example, I took the first statement in the material you sent about the Bible offering the choice between "heaven and hell." I said that what I had only seen where the Bible's choice was between "everlasting life or death." Examples: Romans 6:23 and John 3:13

I then asked if you knew of any Scriptures that show the Bible's choice is between everlasting life in heaven or everlasting life in hell rather then simply everlasting life or death.

Isn't that interacting with what you gave me?

You then said...

Why would I feel the need to find Scripture to suit your or anyone else's affection in this regard when you have multiple verses and information that demonstrates that the two are equated?

Are you saying that although the Bible says the choice is between everlasting life or death, that that means the same thing as everlasting life in heaven or everlasting life in hell?

Don

DonCameron wrote:Hi again Bart,

You said to me...

Please respond and interact with what you've been given.

I thought that's what I was doing.

For example, I took the first statement in the material you sent about the Bible offering the choice between "heaven and hell." I said that what I had only seen where the Bible's choice was between "everlasting life or death." Examples: Romans 6:23 and John 3:13

I then asked if you knew of any Scriptures that show the Bible's choice is between everlasting life in heaven or everlasting life in hell rather then simply everlasting life or death.

Isn't that interacting with what you gave me?

You then said...

Why would I feel the need to find Scripture to suit your or anyone else's affection in this regard when you have multiple verses and information that demonstrates that the two are equated?

Are you saying that although the Bible says the choice is between everlasting life or death, that that means the same thing as everlasting life in heaven or everlasting life in hell?

Don

Don,

You've been given an entire article with multiple citations of Scripture. I don't expect a point by point dissertation, but surely you can interact and provide either a challenge where you believe the Scripture presented to you is either out of context or misunderstood?

In addition, I've asked you several very direct questions in an effort to invite you to state your position and provide a defense for it. It's not unreasonable to expect some response to the questions asked of you, as your questions are being addressed too.

In answer to your question, yes. I believe Scripture teaches Hell as everlasting torment separated from God and that this is what spiritual death entails.

It appears to me that you prefer to believe that annihilation is what taught and you put great weight upon the original passage from Rev 20 that you quoted, although in order to make your point you had to use the translation found in the KJV which more modern translations correct and make clear that the assertion you're making is not in fact supportable by that text alone. When a preponderance of all that the Bible has to say about Hell is examined I believe it is pretty clear.

Would I prefer, humanly speaking, that annihilation were true in this instance? To be honest with you, based on my heart and understanding, that would be my preference. However, this isn't about what anyone would prefer to believe or wishes were true. Where God's Word speaks clearly on an issue, I believe that issue to be settled. In this case, Hell is a topic that the Scripture addresses to a very great extent and Jesus addressed it as one of the major elements of his teaching while here on his earthly ministry. Despite what I would prefer to believe or believe from my human perspective to be more merciful and indicative of what I would prefer to believe, I have a great deal of biblical teaching that says otherwise and it is the authority, not me.

Now, I believe I've spent some time giving you another fairly extensive and clear answer in addition to an extensive article with copious scripture citations backing up the basis for that belief.

Would you please state for me:

1. Clearly what your position is in this regard?
2. The Scriptural foundation of your position?
3. Where you believe that the position stated and proof texted for you above is faulty (if you believe it is.)

If you haven't reached a position on this yet, that's fine. We're wide open to questions and discussion.

If you wouldn't mind, it might help a little too if you share a little about yourself and your background and church affiliation and history just so we can understand better where you are coming from.

Thanks,

Bart