Evidence for God from Science

I am a little confused. While they were being crucified, Jesus said to the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise". However, to my knowledge, Jesus did not ascend to heaven until much later. How does this work?

One thing I've see about that verse is that it was brought about by misconceptions through punctuation errors.

Quote: "In the older texts there was no punctuation; but translators inserted punctuation, many times inaccurately. In Luke 23:43 is an improperly placed comma. It is put before the word "to day," while it should be put after "to day." ". . . Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." In the midst of an excruciating moment, Jesus turned to the malefactor and said to him, "Verily I say unto thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise." The comma must come after the word "to day." There was no paradise "to day," but there will be paradise in the new heaven and the new earth. On the day of Jesus' crucifixion, that malefactor died upon the cross and the malefactor's body saw corruption; but God will raise him at the resurrection. That is why he will be-at a future time-with Jesus Christ in paradise.

There is further proof of the accuracy of the Word of God according to Hebrew tradition. Whenever the Hebrews desired to emphasize an occasion by making a solemn statement, they would express themselves by use of the idiom, "I say unto thee this day." For example:

Deuteronomy 6:6:
And these words, which I command thee this day. . .

Deuteronomy 7:11:
Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day... .

Deuteronomy 8:1:
All the commandments which I command thee this day. . .

Deuteronomy 9:3:
Understand therefore this day. . .

Deuteronomy 10: 13:
. . . which I command thee this day for thy good?

Deuteronomy 11 :2:
And know ye this day. . .

"This day" or "today" was always used to give emphasis to a very solemn expression. Jesus Christ responded to the request of a dying believer, not by promising something for which the malefactor did not ask, but by granting him his desire and the request of his lips. First malefactor: "If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. "Second malefactor: "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

Jesus: "Verily I say unto thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise."

One of the ancient Syriac Gospels discovered at Mt. Sinai further corroborates this accuracy when it states, "Art thou not the Saviour? Save thyself alive today, and also us" (Luke 23:39). The first malefactor was concerned about being saved "today," he was not concerned about his future salvation as the second malefactor was. The other malefactor said, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise."

The lord in his reply to the believing malefactor used the word "to day" to indicate that "to day" was not the day of deliverance for either himself or others. For him and the others on the cross that day, it was the day of death. But, on that day of death, Jesus Christ gave the promise of future glory which will come after the resurrections when paradise will again be reestablished. In his statement to the second dying malefactor, Jesus Christ gave the assurance of the future glory of the Kingdom upon earth.

Hope that helps..

Gman, I have to disagree with you here. I think the punctuation was put in the right place. "Verily verily I say unto you" was a common opening phrase used of Jesus to impart a great truth and every other place in the scriptures it is used without any other indicators. In the case of his response to the thief I see no reason He would suddenly add to this very common idiom.

Whether the thief was with Him in the temporary Paradise called (the bosom of Abraham...the place where Jesus went to set the captive believers free in Hades) or the paradise that Paul saw when he went up to the third heaven, he was with Jesus that day in that place.

I know that the JWs like to put the comma after "today" because it bolsters their belief in the soul sleep of the believer until the millennium. I don't think you hold to that. After Christ finished His work on the cross, like Paul, we as Christians can say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". There is no delay there as far as our spirits go.

FFC wrote:because it bolsters their belief in the soul sleep of the believer until the millennium.

No problem here FFC.. And yes you are right, I'm not a JW nor would I ever wish to be one.. To tell you the truth, where the dead go after they die is more of a mystery to me. I haven't really decided yet what to believe and can see it argued either way. I do know that we will ultimately go to heaven, but I'm not sure about the middle ground there.. Anyways, the book I have (not a JW book) goes into that verse a bit.. Again, it is merely conjecture for me, so I'm not here to really defend it.. I like to see questions about it by the way.. Enjoy.

Absent from the Body, Present with the Lord

A major problem regarding" Are the dead alive now?" is found in II Corinthians 5. Herein is found an expression by Paul which has become a stumbling block.

II Corinthians 5:8 and 9:
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

The phrase in verse 8, "willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" has caused the problem. It is most frequently construed to mean that when a person is absent from the body, he is automatically and immediately present with the lord. Most interpretations who quote "absent from the body. . . present with the Lord" are surprised when they find out that this is not what the verse says. It says, "We are. . . WILLING rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"-which is very different.

The focus of II Corinthians 4: 14 through II Corinthians 5:21 is the return of Christ, and not particularly death.

II Corinthians 4: 14:
Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

God will raise us up and present us. Paul reinforces this truth four verses later.

II Corinthians 4:18:
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Paul says we do not look at the things which are seen; we look at the things which are not seen. Death is seen, but the return has not yet been seen.

II Corinthians 5: 1-4:
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul is speaking of the return: not to die or to be unclothed, as it says in verse 4, but to be clothed upon with our glorious body at his return. The same is recorded in I Thessalonians.

I Thessalonians 4: 17:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so [houtos, in this manner, by his return] shall we ever be with the Lord.

The return of Christ is the enveloping context of II Corinthians 5.

II Corinthians 5:8:
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body [so long as we are in the body, the return has not come so we are naturally absent from the lord], and to be present with the Lord.

When will we "be present with the Lord"? At the parousia, the return.
This strong hope of the return of Christ which Paul had, knowing that not until he was clothed upon with that body of glory could he be with Christ, permeates the entire section of II Corinthians 4:8-5:4. There is never any thought of attaining the state of "being with Christ" apart from Christ's return. Believers will only be present with the lord when they are "clothed upon" with their new spiritual body.

To be present with the lord without having the new spiritual body given at the return of Christ is unscriptural and smacks of theosophy. For according to Philippians l who can look or wait for the savior if he is already with him; or who would need the changing of his body if he has already been present with the lord in glory for years?

Gman wrote:To be present with the lord without having the new spiritual body given at the return of Christ is unscriptural and smacks of theosophy. For according to Philippians l who can look or wait for the savior if he is already with him; or who would need the changing of his body if he has already been present with the lord in glory for years?

To be complete. At death, the spirit and the body are separated. I've always been taught (though I haven't looked into it) the believer's spirit goes to Heaven and is happy there. But fulfilment of happiness will be when the spirit is reunited with the body, because the two were meant to be one.
The last enemy to be defeated is death...

This is a little different theory Turgy.. I think this is the one that Don Cameron is talking about..

In a nutshell, when we die, this is the death of our body and our soul or consciousness (which is actually our spirit). The Holy Spirit (separate from us) given to us by God when confess Jesus as our savior actually goes back to God. So when do we get resurrected? When Jesus comes back for his church...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Because there is no consciousness in death, there is no awareness of time for the dead person. Thus the moment of a man's death becomes, for him, the moment of the return of Christ. But within the dimension of actual time, the moment of a man's death is neither his gathering together unto Christ nor his resurrection. In actual time he does not go immediately to heaven, but descends into gravedom, sheol (unconsciousness).

More about here:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... sc&start=0

Again, this is only a theory....

I think this is more of a charismatic teaching...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_movement

I agree with you gman. To further support your view which I think is Scriptural, we must take note of what Jesus said after His resurrection:

John 20:17 - Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "

Thanks LowlyOne... I was taught this many moons ago. It was something that has always stayed with me I guess.. Whether it is true or not I guess we'll find out later..

G -

FFC wrote:Gman, I have to disagree with you here. I think the punctuation was put in the right place. "Verily verily I say unto you" was a common opening phrase used of Jesus to impart a great truth and every other place in the scriptures it is used without any other indicators. In the case of his response to the thief I see no reason He would suddenly add to this very common idiom.

Whether the thief was with Him in the temporary Paradise called (the bosom of Abraham...the place where Jesus went to set the captive believers free in Hades) or the paradise that Paul saw when he went up to the third heaven, he was with Jesus that day in that place.

I know that the JWs like to put the comma after "today" because it bolsters their belief in the soul sleep of the believer until the millennium. I don't think you hold to that. After Christ finished His work on the cross, like Paul, we as Christians can say "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". There is no delay there as far as our spirits go.

FFc, I am not a JW, but I fully agree with what Gman has said here. In order for this to be true, Jesus would have had to have been resurrected and already ascended into heaven. As it was, He had not even died yet at this point, and He would not be resurrected until 3 days AFTER He said "Today you will be with Me in paradise". If He had actually said this, it would have made Him out to be a liar, for He said TODAY you will be with me. The comma actually WAS put in the wrong place. It should read "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise."

Hie my friends,quite interesting,but I think it has always to emerge at the end that Scripture does not contradict itself and is in total harmony.There are more Scriptures that indicate that death is not a transition into a higher state of life,but A SLEEP-Acts 7 v 59-60.
The whole issue in this case lies with the punctuation as has already been said and sure enough Jesus had not ascended to heaven by the time He rose from the grave leaving us to conclude that there was a mistake in the punctuation of the Bible.The dead do not ascend into the heavens or go to hell for that would totally nullify the judgment teaching as well.
David is said to be still in the grave and so is everyone who is not mentioned by the Bible as having ascended into the heavens.Acts 2 v29&34
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
The thief was promised paradise on the cross not on that day ,but that day!.The dead are in their graves and await the great day

The punctuation is in the right place. The phrase "Truly, truly, I say unto you . . ." is a standard formula Jesus uses in all of the gospels. He only adds the word "today" once to the formula:

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times." Mark 14:30

So look at the two passages side by side:

And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you today . . ." (Luke 23:42))
And Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you that today . . ." (Mark 14:30)

The only difference is the word "that," which from a Greek perspective is not surprising for reasons I won't go into other than to say that Luke has a far more classical style than Mark does. The simple point is that, grammatically, these are the same to constructions.

FFC has already explained the passage correctly, I believe. The thief died and with with Jesus that very day to paradise (aka "Abraham's Bosom", which is where Jesus went for the three days He was dead.

Abraham's Bosom was a parable, not a literal place. Jesus stated "Today you will be with Me in paradise", but unfortunately the comma was in the wrong place. The correct phrasing should be "Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise". Any other interpretation would make Jesus out to be a liar, which He wasn't. Even if "abraham's bosom' were a literal place, the thief still would not have been with Jesus that day in paradise, since "Abraham's Bosom" is supposedly a resting place for souls BEFORE they are resurrected into heaven, which is the true "paradise".

No, Jen, you are mistaken. Notice my previous post. The linguistic evidence is conclusive on this. The paradise motif in Scripture is pervasive, running through both the Old and New Testaments.

Concerning the word "today," it is in the emphatic position, emphasizing that the thief would be with Christ that very day in paradise. While your rendering is a grammatical possibility, it is extremely unlikely given Luke's general style, Jesus' usage of the phrase in the whole of Scripture, and the whole of grammar in general.

God bless

I am sorry if you think I am mistaken. I can give you an accurate description of what "Abraham's Bosom" truly is, if you wish, though not tonite as I am tired. However, When I return, I will also give you plenty of scripture that also states they when we die, we are DEAD until the resurrection. There is no "resting place" for those who die other than the grave. And God bless you, too.

Looks like I opened a can of worms here... Sorry. Just to reiterate my beliefs, I'm not sure exactly what happens when we die. I know we will meet Christ, I'm just not too sure about the in betweens.

Jac3510 wrote:The punctuation is in the right place. The phrase "Truly, truly, I say unto you . . ." is a standard formula Jesus uses in all of the gospels. He only adds the word "today" once to the formula:

Just an fyi on this.. The original Greek did not have punctuation marks as we do today.