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Judgement

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:29 pm
by Kenn
An Atheist On Judgement Day

The line seemed to stretch back forever. Hundreds of millions of souls, waiting patiently for their turn before the throne. The date... Well, the day is Judgment Day, so you won't find it on any calendar. The queue of people winds its way down the mountain, through the valley and off into the far distance. Everybody in the queue can see the final destination at the mountain peak. A hundred miles away, they can see it perfectly clearly. And they wait, moving forward a couple of steps at a time. Towards God, and the Decision.

At the head of the we find a young Christian, wearing an expression of awe and joy. Behind him, an atheist, looking slightly astonished, examining a leaf she has picked from a nearby bush, trying to decide if it is real or not. Heaven, she thinks, should be whiter, with more dry ice swirling about; not look like a Welsh hillside on a hot day.

The Christian steps forward for judgment.

"Hello Martin". God's voice is calm and gentle as He speaks.

"Erm.. Hello. Lord". Martin's voice is nervous, as a dozen emotions fight for room in his mind at once.

"This is it. This is where I decide what shall happen to you, Martin. In life, you were a Christian". It was a statement, not a question.

"I was, Lord. I still am. I have been all my life. I have dedicated myself to your service."

"Tell me, Martin. Why were you a Christian? Why did you believe in me?"

"Why? Well... Because you are God! I've always believed in you."

"That is not what I want to know. Why did you believe?"

"Because I knew it was true. You were always there for me. You helped me through the bad times. You answered my prayers. You gave me the strength and courage to get through life. I could feel your presence with me all the time."

"No."

"Pardon, Lord?"

"I said no, Martin. I have never helped you. You seemed to be doing perfectly alright by yourself. I heard your prayers, but never answered a single one. Your belief in me definitely helped you on occasion, but I have never intervened in your life. Certainly, you gave me credit for all the good times, but they were your own doing, not mine. You did not feel my presence, because it cannot be felt. The only actual proof you have that I exist at all is here and now. Again, tell me why you believed."

"I.. I had faith, Lord. Since I was a child I have been to church, prayed and sang every Sunday. My faith in you never wavered. Even when my mother died, I had faith that it was your will, that it was a blessing from you that she passed peacefully. I was raised to believe in you, and as I grew I read the Bible for myself, and learnt of your miracles, and all the saints and martyrs, and the good done in your name. I read the works of great philosophers and they merely strengthened my faith. I knew it was true. "

"No, Martin. Your mother died of natural causes, and she died peacefully because of the actions of the hospital. I watched and saw, but that is all. As for the rest - the saints, martyrs and philosophers had similar reasons for their belief in me, just as dictators and murderers have had. People have done great good and great harm in my name, and in the names of a thousand false gods. The Bible was written about me, not by me, and was written by people who had similar reasons as you for their belief, just as a thousand other Holy Books have been written about the false gods, or different versions of myself. I ask for the third and final time. Why did you believe in me?"

Martin looked shocked and ashen, but pulled himself together. His Lord was testing him, and he had lived his entire life for this moment.

"I believed because I could feel in my heart it was true. You sent your son to die for us, and I gladly accepted Him as my saviour. I.. I just knew it was true, and now that I see you, my faith has been vindicated. I no longer need to believe - I can see for myself the truth and majesty of my religion."

Quietly, God spoke again. "Martin, you have impressed me". He paused.

"But... not enough. You believe because you were taught to believe. You believe because you mistakenly attribute to me anything positive that has happened in your life, and discount anything negative. You believe because it is comforting to believe, and because you are frightened of the consequences of my not existing. You believe because... you believe. I'm sorry, Martin, but there is no place for you here."

God gestured briefly with his fingers, and Martin vanished. His shadow lingered where he had stood, fading rapidly to nothingness.

The atheist, somewhat shaken by what she had just seen, stepped forward.

"Hello Eve. I like that name."

"Ah. Hello, God. Thanks", said Eve, not entirely sure how to address a being she had, until now, considered fictional.

"Yes, you may call me God. Eve, in life you were an atheist. You doubted my existence, even objecting to the very concept". Again, a statement, not a question.

"Yes, I did. Clearly, I was mistaken."

"Clearly. Tell me, are you still an atheist?"

"I suppose not. I'm not a Christian, Jew or anything else. I guess I'd have to be called an involuntary theist. Ah ha ha", Eve laughed nervously, hoping the very real and solid-looking deity before her had a good sense of humour.

"Mmm... Tell me, Eve. Why did you not believe in me?". God's voice was kind and gentle once more.

"At one point I did. I was raised as a Christian, and often went to church, and prayed every night before bed. When I was feeling down I would read the Bible. The act of reading it seemed to comfort me, even though the words themselves didn't seem much help. I think, like Martin, I believed because I believed."

"And then you lost your faith? You decided I did not exist, and you knew better than those around you? You knew better than your pastor and family?" The voice was losing its kindly edge a little.

"That is one way of looking at it, yes. What I believed did not seem to fit with other things I knew. The Bible clearly could not be literally true, word for word. I knew from biology and paleontology that humans had evolved like all other life, and were not special creations. How life or the universe began, I still don't know, but could not just merely accept 'God did it' as an explanation. I learned about other religions, and how they all claimed a monopoly on truth, happiness and morality. I saw the good done in your name, but I also saw the oppression, genocide and wars. I saw that if people were in need, it was up to us to deal with it, not to rely on heavenly aid.". Eve felt a little braver, but was expecting the traditional thunderbolt any moment. The people behind her, now at the head of the queue, were slowly moving backwards, trying not to draw attention to themselves.

"Yet here you are, before your God, on the final Day of Judgment. Why should I allow you in - a heretic, a disbeliever, an infidel - when your predecessor, devout and faithful, full of love for me, was consigned to Oblivion? Tell me why. Justify your entry to my Paradise."

Eve straightened up, looking God in the face. "Why should you let me in? Because I am better person than you."

If Eve had looked round, she would have seen the entire line of souls, perfectly still and wide-eyed, staring at her in shock.

"What did you say?", enquired God. His voice, though barely audible, caused tremors in the mountain.

Surprised at still being alive, her mouth dry, Eve continued. "I said, because I am a better person. You have shown it yourself already. You told Martin that you watched as his mother became ill and died. You destroyed him for believing for no good reason, when his whole life had been shaped by that belief. Your preachers on Earth encourage unquestioning faith, yet you do not tell us whether that is what you want. You give people no rational basis for belief, and then when they make up their own that is not good enough for you. You listen to our prayers, yet do not answer, leaving people to rationalise events for themselves. People kill and slaughter over trivial differences in doctrine, and you look on. In the churches and temples raised in your glory, children are mentally and physically abused - in your so-called House! All over the world, throughout history, people have murdered each other for believing the wrong thing about God, for believing in the wrong God, or for not believing in any God. The poorest and most helpless people are relentlessly targeted, being told to give what little they have now, for the promise of eternal bliss later. When a person is at his lowest ebb, that is when the smiling missionaries appear, knowing that his life will probably get better naturally and they can give you the credit. In your name, the ends justify the means as long as souls are saved". Eve paused for breath, and continued.

"And you? All-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing? You just sit here and you watch it all... Any person in this line, had they your power, would show greater compassion and morality. You may be God, but you are far from Godliness."

God smiled. "Are you finished? Good. Eve, you have impressed me". He paused. Eve held her breath, shoulders tensing.

"You have impressed me a great deal. You may have believed in me for all the wrong reasons, but you disbelieved for the right reasons. You led a good life, and used the intelligence I give to everybody in the correct way. Even though you came to a conclusion about me that was hopelessly wrong, you came to it in a way that cannot be faulted. You may pass into paradise, Eve, with my blessing."

Eve did not step forward. Instead, she spoke once more. "No, I will not".

"No? You refuse Heaven? You defy my will?" The smile had left God's face again.

"Do you think I would want to spend one more minute, let alone eternity, in your company? You allow people to suffer, sometimes for their entire lives, for no purpose, and then judge them on their reaction. You hide yourself from the world and allow your creations to persecute each other over differing interpretations of the lack of evidence. You see all the pain and ignorance caused in your name, and just sit there as this queue grows daily? And then you have the audacity to punish good people for believing in you 'for the wrong reasons'?"

"Eve. Enough of this. The gates to Paradise are open to you. Be silent now, and enter."

"No. If it is a choice between oblivion and an eternity with a monster like you, I gladly choose oblivion. I ask only one thing, before you destroy me."

"And what is that?" asked God, getting impatient.

"That, if you can, you look me in the eyes as you do it."


Shortly afterwards, the next person in the queue stepped towards the top of the mountain, and Judgment.



An atheist showed me this, and I'm freaked out. Could this be true?

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:07 pm
by Judah
What about it freaks you out, Kenn?

It is full of errors if it is supposed to represent the Christian God.
It is imaginative writing - fiction - but will not stand up to an application of Biblical truth.

Would you care to say more about your reaction to it, and what specifically it says that disturbs you?

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:24 pm
by Kurieuo
:lol: - typical positivism at work in that (Martin's case), an unsustainable epistemological position. It is obviously framed from an Atheist's persepective, for the Christian could just as easily rationalised to God through His creation and the Atheist's ignorance to it been highlighted and his beliefs as a matter of faith. Yet, I do believe many non-Christians will respond as "Eve" did for they think themselves higher than God.

Amusing that while Martin attributes good to God which God denies, Eve attributes God's complicity in evil which God remains complacent to. The obvious Atheist thought that they are somehow of higher moral character than God does not acknowledge where such standards of morality came from in the first place (especially given God's existence). Given I believe the Gospel is that God has forgiven us all through Christ, this story presents a classic case of a person (Eve) who rejects that forgiveness because in her view she was repulsed by God and saw herself above God's morality. To her, she did not need forgiveness, God did because God allowed the world to carry on as it does with evil happening. Eve therefore chose to place herself above God and judge Him. She was ultimately oblivious to God's love for us, because she thought a moral God would want spoilt brats who had not been developed as persons and who had never been refined through hardship--spolit brats who God only lavished a hedonistic lifestyle upon. Funny, for such a seemingly honourable Atheist (Eve), I see a lack of honour and depth in her idea of what God should desire for us.

In generally, this story is an argument of why bad things happen if God is all-powerful and all-loving. There are many existing theodicies to such a question, some of which I have touched upon here in my response.

Kurieuo

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:47 am
by puritan lad
Kenn,

I think the atheist found this story in a light blue pipe.

Image

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:07 am
by FFC
Good one, PL :lol:

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:37 pm
by Judah
Very funny, PL. :lol:

It is also probably very true as well. :roll:

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:17 pm
by Gman
Get a load of the size of that toilet.... :shock: :lol: :P :roll:

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:31 pm
by Judah
Hahahahaha, Gman! This thread gets better and better! :D

But hang on a minute...

Kenn, in all seriousness, I really am interested in hearing what bothered you so much about that story. It is certainly fantasy or whatever, but something must have prompted you to react the way you did. We are most certainly not laughing at you, nor the fact that you are concerned by something in it.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:22 pm
by puritan lad
It's the atheist's story that we are making fun of. See (Mark 16:16).

On the lighter side, I wonder if there is a plunger for this thing. A RotoRooter nightmare :D

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:34 pm
by FFC
puritan lad wrote:It's the atheist's story that we are making fun of. See (Mark 16:16).

On the lighter side, I wonder if there is a plunger for this thing. A RotoRooter nightmare :D
Imagine how the Tidy bowl man is feeling. :shock:

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:42 pm
by Turgonian
Indeed, it's full of errors. God will not let atheists into Heaven simply because they insult Him; indeed, His wrath is on them. Eve did not 'disbelieve for the right reasons', neither did Martin 'believe for the wrong ones'.

God says that whoever believes in Jesus shall have eternal life. You don't pass a post-death test to see if you can give the right answers to God. Your destiny is decided in life.

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:10 pm
by Aviatrix
God is over all things capable. An atheist in order to maintain his disbelief has to ignore certain attributes of God while mocking others.

Don't just listen to your average Joe about what God is like. You have something far greater than any atheist's imagination in your Bible. Who is God? What is God like? Why does God punish?

Nor think that God does nothing without purpose as the "Eve" in the story claimed.

If you don't know why you believe in God, take up astronomy. 8)

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:49 pm
by Kenn
the thing that worried me was that i believe for the same reasons as Martin, which means the only reason i believe is because i was taught to. Is believing like that really, sincerely believing, or is it simply blind following that won't get me into heaven?

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:01 pm
by Aviatrix
Kenn, the story was written by an atheist. The entire purpose is to suggest that believing something without his form of "proof" is believing blindly, and foolish therefore.

Asking for a proof of God, however, is like asking for a lamp to see the Sun. If these people didn't have so many doubts about God, they wouldn't need so many proofs.

If you feel like your faith is lacking, just study it more. Study the Bible more, pray more, observe nature--one of the most powerful proofs. A friend of mine were remarking about some astronomical photographs recently. No funny-matching colors, he said! :lol:

Seriously, I think that looking at the stars will increase your faith. Looking at the body, looking at a bug, even. Everything in this world was put here to remind you of God. It's an atheists ego (as in the story) that makes him think he is wiser than God, and that he can out-smart God.

This is just an atheist joke, please, don't take it seriously.

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:39 pm
by Judah
Kenn wrote:the thing that worried me was that i believe for the same reasons as Martin, which means the only reason i believe is because i was taught to. Is believing like that really, sincerely believing, or is it simply blind following that won't get me into heaven?
Kenn, I think what I hear you asking is this: with what degree of conviction must I believe that what I have been taught is the truth in order to have a saving faith?

Actually, I think you have raised an excellent discussion point.
There are plenty of people around who have never really given an ounce of thought to any beliefs they were taught as children. They will go around with those childhood learnings and never re-visit them as adults, or examine them to re-new them as beliefs they actually choose to have. So you might ask, what exactly is the strength of their faith? Is it enough? What is enough?

Well, it might be enough to have a childhood faith that unquestionably accepts the existence of God and the truth of Jesus, the message of His salvation which imparts such by the grace of God. But if it is tested, does it still stand firm and strengthens, bringing you closer to God with spiritual growth and renewal? Or does it fade and dissipate, look silly and old and worthless only to be discarded?

I believe that as an adult it is important to look at such things and make a personal decision, one that takes adult responsibility for your beliefs.

Can you look at your childhood faith, those things you were taught back then, and still say that you truly believe them? If you can, are you able to confirm your belief as an adult? Do you know just what you are believing to be true?

I would suggest that you read chapter 3 of John's Gospel.
Here it is here: John 3:1-36

Christians talk about being "born again" and that comes from what Jesus said to a man called Nicodemus who questioned Him.
John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Jesus also goes on to say:
John 3: 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
The question I guess you need to ask yourself as an adult has to do with your relationship with Jesus. If you do believe that Jesus is God's Son who came into the world to die for your sins, to redeem you and by the grace of God through your belief in Him, take away your sins - pay the penalty for them - then as He says in verse 18, you are not condemned.

If you can declare that, believing it honestly and sincerely with the self-responsibility of an adult, then our Lord says you shall not perish but have eternal life.

Of course, that is just the beginning of your walk with Him. :wink:

I agree with Aviatrix. Just as she points out - there is a great deal of evidence that points to the existence of God if one simply opens one's eyes in such a way to see it. That story was indeed written by an aetheist.