Legally proving God exists.

[Michelle]

Last night I was sitting up in bed when it occurred to me that the belief in the existence of God is an individual thing based on personal faith. It can never be proved one way or the other legally. I personally believe in God. To the individual they might have their own proof, however to the collective and to atheists that proof doesn't exist. So I tried to look at things through the eyes of an atheist by doing a little roll using law as an example.

As such I am wondering if anyone wuld like to participate in a little interactive game. I need people to play the part of the defence. I will play the part of the prosecution. I also need a jury so if anyone wants to please feel free to jump in. After all I want this to be a fair trial. Atheists and Chrstians are very welcome!

To prove a point just suppose God were to be put on trial in a court of law. First we have to determine which system of law we are going to use. A Christian would more than likely use the Inquisitorial system which would allow for the use of hearsay evidence. However an atheist would use the Adversary system which does not allow for this.

God, to prove his existence (legally) would have to be put on trial. So what sort of trial are we God to have? Logic tells us that it must be a criminal trial not a civil one because if it is proven that God doesn't exist, then fraud has been committed. Even so remember that God despite being put on trial is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

So what charges would be laid against him? There would be mulltiple charges. Obviously failure in his duty of care to provide undeniable proof to the entire human race could be one. Another would be that of fraud and so on.

Now just suppose we have already gone through Mention Court with our hand-up brief and it has been determined that there is enough evidence for a trial. We now need you to help in this trial. After all if I am playing the part of the prosecution God has the right to have you defend him. Any takers? And remember please you are defending God so I want you to tear my evidence apart.

[Judah]

Hmm, reminds me of the title of a book by C.S. Lewis, namely God in the Dock.
Some folks persist in wanting to put Him there, our Almighty Creator Father God, and to try Him as a criminal.

Michelle, I am all for people asking questions showing all due respect, but this kind of set-up sounds more ruthless than that.

Also, I have my doubts that such a treatment of our Heavenly Father is in accordance with the Board Purpose as it is written.
Please read it over again and reconsider what you are asking of us.
Your questions are very welcome, but phrased with due respect for our beliefs which, while we hold dear, we will not mind sharing with you.

[Michelle]

Hmm, reminds me of the title of a book by C.S. Lewis, namely God in the Dock.
Some folks persist in wanting to put Him there, our Almighty Creator Father God, and to try Him as a criminal.

Michelle, I am all for people asking questions showing all due respect, but this kind of set-up sounds more ruthless than that.

Also, I have my doubts that such a treatment of our Heavenly Father is in accordance with the Board Purpose as it is written.
Please read it over again and reconsider what you are asking of us.
Your questions are very welcome, but phrased with due respect for our beliefs which, while we hold dear, we will not mind sharing with you.

Judah, thank you for your response. I mean no one any disrespect. I was hoping to emphasise the fact a person needs to have faith to believe in God. I was hoping that a little roll playing might let us see things through other peoples eyes and teach us how they might feel so we can relate to them better. Instead of having they are wrong and we are right (regardless of which side of the fence one sits) type attitudes. Something even myself have been guilty of.

Why I am using a criminal trial (although I would never personally suggest that God is anything like that), is because from an atheists perspective they would see his existence as a complete fabrication. A civil trial could not demonstrate just how atheists see this, nor could having an inquisitorial trial. Only something that deals wth facts. I believe that there are facts that prove beyond reasonable doubt. And like I said God is innocent until proven guility, which means I am actually saying that the atheist needs to prove its case not the Christian!

[Judah]

Michelle, look at it this way. Why would I believe something - anything - if I did not think it was right? Of course I believe my beliefs are right. I would be silly to believe them if I actually thought otherwise.

Regarding aetheists, many of us have had plenty of experience talking to aetheists about our beliefs, or rather, offering an apologia for them when questioned. Why do you think we need to do it all over again in some court room role play when the purpose of this board is contrary to that?

We are nearly all willing to answer sincere questions from seekers, from people who are not as convinced as we are, and try to understand the argument and offer the best answer for it. At times we all experience doubts as well, but our faith is not the blind faith that lacks good sense and reason. Our faith is that step further in the very direction to which the evidence is pointing, and often pointing overwhelmingly. Many of us can give fair answers to questions, but a person needs to be willing to listen to the answer just as much as the person answering needs to listen to the question. All of this must be done with respect for the other's beliefs or non belief. Anyway, I don't think I am telling you anything you don't already know when I talk about respect.

To change the subject slightly, what I am aware of in all the posts you have made so far is (what seems to me) a fair amount of anger on your part - towards God, towards Christians, towards... I cannot be sure? You have told us of some horrific things that happened to you, and I would be surprised if you did not have some very strong feelings since you were so badly hurt and let down by those who should have known better. A court room scene with God in the dock may be a way of dealing with your anger - I don't know, I am only guessing - but I for one don't feel the need to defend Him as He is far bigger and stronger and mightier than me.

I think you will find folk here willing to answer questions if asked, and that there is really no need to take court action against Him as, despite however you perceive Him to be, He really is our very loving Heavenly Father regardless - and yes, that is my belief and I believe I am right too (or I should not be believing it!)

[Michelle]

Michelle, look at it this way. Why would I believe something - anything - if I did not think it was right? Of course I believe my beliefs are right. I would be silly to believe them if I actually thought otherwise.

Regarding aetheists, many of us have had plenty of experience talking to aetheists about our beliefs, or rather, offering an apologia for them when questioned. Why do you think we need to do it all over again in some court room role play when the purpose of this board is contrary to that?

We are nearly all willing to answer sincere questions from seekers, from people who are not as convinced as we are, and try to understand the argument and offer the best answer for it. At times we all experience doubts as well, but our faith is not the blind faith that lacks good sense and reason. Our faith is that step further in the very direction to which the evidence is pointing, and often pointing overwhelmingly. Many of us can give fair answers to questions, but a person needs to be willing to listen to the answer just as much as the person answering needs to listen to the question. All of this must be done with respect for the other's beliefs or non belief. Anyway, I don't think I am telling you anything you don't already know when I talk about respect.

To change the subject slightly, what I am aware of in all the posts you have made so far is (what seems to me) a fair amount of anger on your part - towards God, towards Christians, towards... I cannot be sure? You have told us of some horrific things that happened to you, and I would be surprised if you did not have some very strong feelings since you were so badly hurt and let down by those who should have known better. A court room scene with God in the dock may be a way of dealing with your anger - I don't know, I am only guessing - but I for one don't feel the need to defend Him as He is far bigger and stronger and mightier than me.

I think you will find folk here willing to answer questions if asked, and that there is really no need to take court action against Him as, despite however you perceive Him to be, He really is our very loving Heavenly Father regardless - and yes, that is my belief and I believe I am right too (or I should not be believing it!)

If you want just delete my post. I have no problem with that. Maybe this forum is not quite for me. I tend to think in an intellectual perspective and am used to discussions with academics. As such I tend to want to know how someone knows, what proof (nothing to do with God existing, I already believe that) they have of what they are saying and why they feel the way they do. I have genuine questions, however it seems that any answers given are very evasive or dogmatic. It is almost as if Christians feel they are being persecuted. Far from it. The problem I have is that the only referral to any questions I have is to the Godandscience website. While I commend this site for some of the things written, because I have an academic background I tend to require a broad spectrum of information. The godandscience website is mainly only the opinions of one person whereas I was hoping to gather a plethora of information for others with no association to that particular website who could back up what is being said.

[Canuckster1127]

Michelle,

In addition to website you have a plethora of threads on this website which you will find covers a very broad base in just the areas you mention with many different viewpoints.

The Board Purpose gives what I believe is a pretty clear description of our purpose and the reasons we have worked to limit our discussions to those who are Christians looking for encouragement and growth or honest seekers seeking to understand better.

There are other boards out there that are more freewheeling and seek to engage in the type of thing you're looking for perhaps better than we do and that's fine. We can't be all things to all people.

You're certainly welcome to post and interact here within the discussion guidelines and purpose. I think you've been welcomed and for my part, and I believe others, we're happy to interact. Not everyone will necessarily want to interact in terms of the manner you've requested in this particular thread. We do care however and I think we've been expressing that and demonstrating it as best we can.

It's your decision however. You're the one who knows where you are at and what you want to accomplish.

Blessings,

Bart

[Gman]

Michelle,

Legally proving that God exists is a question that goes back thousands of years and still counting... So far we only have theories on his existence.. There are no solid facts yet... Perhaps the better question is to prove that God doesn't exist then...

One way to prove that God doesn't exist is through the theory of evolution without any divine intervention. So far, to this day of Monday 9, 2006 this still hasn't been proven, (just ask any real honest scientist or evolutionist)... Evolution is still then a theory, not a fact that is still in the works just like creationism or ID... To this very day, nobody knows how a mixture of non-living chemicals can transform itself into a living cell. Evolution claims that many things can evolve through natural selection... However, this poses a problem.. First, how is natural selection going to start since it needs living matter and second what is natural selection going to select out of a mixture of non-living chemicals in order to get life started? In other words, we don't even have an egg yet to prove that a chicken was born out of it... Does that make any sense? It's all merely conjecture and speculation...

Follow your heart....

May God be with you...

G -

[Michelle]

Michelle,

Legally proving that God exists is a question that goes back thousands of years and still counting... So far we only have theories on his existence.. There are no solid facts yet... Perhaps the better question is to prove that God doesn't exist then...

One way to prove that God doesn't exist is through the theory of evolution without any divine intervention. So far, to this day of Monday 9, 2006 this still hasn't been proven, (just ask any real honest scientist or evolutionist)... Evolution is still then a theory, not a fact that is still in the works just like creationism or ID... To this very day, nobody knows how a mixture of non-living chemicals can transform itself into a living cell. Evolution claims that many things can evolve through natural selection... However, this poses a problem.. First, how is natural selection going to start since it needs living matter and second what is natural selection going to select out of a mixture of non-living chemicals in order to get life started? In other words, we don't even have an egg yet to prove that a chicken was born out of it... Does that make any sense? It's all merely conjecture and speculation...

Follow your heart....

May God be with you...

G -

Sincere thankyou for your intelligent words of wisdom. This was the whole point that I was trying to demonstrate in the first place. The truth about Gods existence one way or the other in regards to the collective rather than the individual will never be fully determined at the present time. God gives each person who believes their own level of proof. He hasn't proved to the entire human race that he exists. Otherwise there would be no atheists.

[Michelle]

Michelle, look at it this way. Why would I believe something - anything - if I did not think it was right? Of course I believe my beliefs are right. I would be silly to believe them if I actually thought otherwise.

Regarding aetheists, many of us have had plenty of experience talking to aetheists about our beliefs, or rather, offering an apologia for them when questioned. Why do you think we need to do it all over again in some court room role play when the purpose of this board is contrary to that?

We are nearly all willing to answer sincere questions from seekers, from people who are not as convinced as we are, and try to understand the argument and offer the best answer for it. At times we all experience doubts as well, but our faith is not the blind faith that lacks good sense and reason. Our faith is that step further in the very direction to which the evidence is pointing, and often pointing overwhelmingly. Many of us can give fair answers to questions, but a person needs to be willing to listen to the answer just as much as the person answering needs to listen to the question. All of this must be done with respect for the other's beliefs or non belief. Anyway, I don't think I am telling you anything you don't already know when I talk about respect.

To change the subject slightly, what I am aware of in all the posts you have made so far is (what seems to me) a fair amount of anger on your part - towards God, towards Christians, towards... I cannot be sure? You have told us of some horrific things that happened to you, and I would be surprised if you did not have some very strong feelings since you were so badly hurt and let down by those who should have known better. A court room scene with God in the dock may be a way of dealing with your anger - I don't know, I am only guessing - but I for one don't feel the need to defend Him as He is far bigger and stronger and mightier than me.

I think you will find folk here willing to answer questions if asked, and that there is really no need to take court action against Him as, despite however you perceive Him to be, He really is our very loving Heavenly Father regardless - and yes, that is my belief and I believe I am right too (or I should not be believing it!)

You seem to have some problem with some of my posts so maybe I should explain something to you. First, I got the run around regarding a question I asked. I was referred to a link and after reviewing it realised that it was nothing more than propaganda from one persons personal opinion. There was no statistical data to back up what this person was saying.

Second when I raised the issue that the problem why there are so many abortions is because somewhere along the line society has got it wrong, no one even mentioned a thing. It came across as if people are only interested in dealing with the end result of a very serious problem and no real solutions. It would have meant a lot if someone had have interacted with some ideas how to make positive changes to stop this happening in the first place.

Third, the comment regarding Bush was absurd. Just because I say that even if he goes to church that does not mean he is a Christian doesn't mean that I am against the war in Iraq or the war on terror. I live in Australia so my outlook on what our Prime Minister does is different. I support our troops in Iraq, however I am against our government sending the amount of troops they have. In Australia we are in very close proximity to the largest Muslim nation in the world and our relationship with that nation is very strained. We have thousands of kilometres of coastline that is isolated. By sending the amount of troops we have we run the risk of not having sufficient homeland defence. I have studied international politics and terrorism and realise that counter-terrorism is vital. What I was trying to emphasize was that many people have the belief that because they live in the western world based on Christian principles, and go to Church they are Christian. Christianity is a way of life beyond going to Church.

I myself don't call myself a Christian simply because even if many years ago I make the choice to become born again, if I am not able to live fully according to all the principles and values that Christ taught then I do not have the right to call my self one.

[Judah]

OK, that makes a bit more sense to me.

I didn't followup your question and the link you were given but noted that someone else had already responded to you there. I follow links for information and it is certainly true that they vary in the extent to which the authors substantiate what they write. I note that as I read and just keep looking elsewhere, often one link leading me to another, etc.

Something that I notice a lot on message boards, or when chatting across international lines in any context, is that people read into what is written according to the additional influence of their cultural backgrounds. Having spent a lot of time in the USA, I firmly believe that Americans are wired quite differently from Kiwis. It is subtle, but it is there. The Brits are different again. For all our cross-Tasman rivalries, I have found that Aussies and Kiwis seem to think more on the same wavelength than Kiwis and Americans. And that is additional to the usual way people normally vary in how they understand what was asked by the question. My point is that we need to be aware that folks are not always going to read us correctly, know what we are driving at, understand what we want, and respond accordingly. And then there are time restraints - folks dashing past and not having long to stop. I reckon that most folks here do the best they can with the resources they have in the time available. Also, what they give me is a gift - I have no rights to demand anything. Sometimes it will be spot on, other times far out. It pays to come back, patiently clarify your wants, have another go, and see what happens next. You may have to be very specific in order to get what you are looking for.

I share your concerns about our proximity to Indonesia, and if you get to read anything of what I have written around the place here, you will see I have a special interest in things Islam - the truth of that totalitarian ideology and what it intends for the future of all of us. I also agree with you about the Christian status of the west. It has a Judeo-Christian heritage that is fast being dismantled by elements within our postmodern age, and many who say they are Christian are only so in a cultural sense, not in any other real sense. You are right that going to church does not make one a Christian, and nor are a great many other things one might do makes one a Christian.

Which brings me to another point that you make...

I myself don't call myself a Christian simply because even if many years ago I make the choice to become born again, if I am not able to live fully according to all the principles and values that Christ taught then I do not have the right to call my self one.

Nobody can do anything to earn the right to call themselves a Christian.
Being a Christian, and doing what you expect a Christian to do, are two entirely different things. Very simply put, a Christian is someone who has accepted Christ as their lord and saviour - it is a status of being. One becomes, in relationship to Christ. There is nothing anyone can do to earn this status - beyond the act of faith it takes to say Yes Lord, I believe. All the work is done by God. He redeems. He restores. He justifies. He sanctifies.

Sometimes it is downright embarrassing when, being known as a Christian, I mess up and make a hash of things. I probably don't look like a Christian when my teenage son drives me to the brink and has me blowing my foo-foo valve. I am probably not being like what anyone would expect a Christian to be like (er, whatever that is - something angelic) but the fact remains, I am still one regardless. Even if I was actively wringing his neck, I am still a Christian. In fact, I sometimes think that when Christians shy away from confessing to others that they are Christians, it is to avoid being held accountable for their faith. But Christians are sinners just like everyone else. If serious about their walk with Christ, then they are usually working on becoming more like Him - through prayer and through submitting to the renewing work of the Holy Spirit within them. But one does not earn (by doing things) the right to be called a Christian. It is a status bestowed by the grace of God.

OK, that's more than enough from me. I hope some of what I have said is relevant to what you wrote.

[Michelle]

OK, that makes a bit more sense to me.

I didn't followup your question and the link you were given but noted that someone else had already responded to you there. I follow links for information and it is certainly true that they vary in the extent to which the authors substantiate what they write. I note that as I read and just keep looking elsewhere, often one link leading me to another, etc.

Something that I notice a lot on message boards, or when chatting across international lines in any context, is that people read into what is written according to the additional influence of their cultural backgrounds. Having spent a lot of time in the USA, I firmly believe that Americans are wired quite differently from Kiwis. It is subtle, but it is there. The Brits are different again. For all our cross-Tasman rivalries, I have found that Aussies and Kiwis seem to think more on the same wavelength than Kiwis and Americans. And that is additional to the usual way people normally vary in how they understand what was asked by the question. My point is that we need to be aware that folks are not always going to read us correctly, know what we are driving at, understand what we want, and respond accordingly. And then there are time restraints - folks dashing past and not having long to stop. I reckon that most folks here do the best they can with the resources they have in the time available. Also, what they give me is a gift - I have no rights to demand anything. Sometimes it will be spot on, other times far out. It pays to come back, patiently clarify your wants, have another go, and see what happens next. You may have to be very specific in order to get what you are looking for.

I share your concerns about our proximity to Indonesia, and if you get to read anything of what I have written around the place here, you will see I have a special interest in things Islam - the truth of that totalitarian ideology and what it intends for the future of all of us. I also agree with you about the Christian status of the west. It has a Judeo-Christian heritage that is fast being dismantled by elements within our postmodern age, and many who say they are Christian are only so in a cultural sense, not in any other real sense. You are right that going to church does not make one a Christian, and nor are a great many other things one might do makes one a Christian.

Which brings me to another point that you make...

I myself don't call myself a Christian simply because even if many years ago I make the choice to become born again, if I am not able to live fully according to all the principles and values that Christ taught then I do not have the right to call my self one.

Nobody can do anything to earn the right to call themselves a Christian.
Being a Christian, and doing what you expect a Christian to do, are two entirely different things. Very simply put, a Christian is someone who has accepted Christ as their lord and saviour - it is a status of being. One becomes, in relationship to Christ. There is nothing anyone can do to earn this status - beyond the act of faith it takes to say Yes Lord, I believe. All the work is done by God. He redeems. He restores. He justifies. He sanctifies.

Sometimes it is downright embarrassing when, being known as a Christian, I mess up and make a hash of things. I probably don't look like a Christian when my teenage son drives me to the brink and has me blowing my foo-foo valve. I am probably not being like what anyone would expect a Christian to be like (er, whatever that is - something angelic) but the fact remains, I am still one regardless. Even if I was actively wringing his neck, I am still a Christian. In fact, I sometimes think that when Christians shy away from confessing to others that they are Christians, it is to avoid being held accountable for their faith. But Christians are sinners just like everyone else. If serious about their walk with Christ, then they are usually working on becoming more like Him - through prayer and through submitting to the renewing work of the Holy Spirit within them. But one does not earn (by doing things) the right to be called a Christian. It is a status bestowed by the grace of God.

OK, that's more than enough from me. I hope some of what I have said is relevant to what you wrote.

Thanks, it makes a lot of sense and has brought things into perspectiiive for me.

Also what do you mean us Aussies and Kiwis think on the same wavelength. Aren't you Kiwis more sheepish than us?

[Judah]

Also what do you mean us Aussies and Kiwis think on the same wavelength. Aren't you Kiwis more sheepish than us?

What the?!
Sheepish? Nah. You are mistaking the real thing for those woolly blobs that baaa out in the paddocks.
Kiwis eat roots and leaves - and be careful where you insert any commas.

I'll forgive you this time because you come from Victoria, my favourite Aussie state. But no pushing it.

[Kurieuo]

I'll forgive you this time because you come from Victoria, my favourite Aussie state. But no pushing it.

What the?? Your taste is poorly lacking.

[Judah]

Nope. Queensland is too hot and humid for me.
I am very partial to Melbourne, but also to many other smaller towns - especially Portland. I could live there.
And that ocean coastal highway is just gorgeous.

[Gman]

Yey mates from down under... Greetings from California. Everyone on the east coast is asleep, so guess I have only you guys to entertain me.. I've seen many pictures of the Australian coastline.. It is simply marvelous. One day I will go there hopefully.. New Zealand is also amazing... At least from what I saw in that Lord of the Rings movie.. I actually liked the scenery better than the movie in some sense..

I live only a mile away from the Pacific Ocean. Maybe if I put up a smoke signal you guys could see it..

Take care,

G -