Evidence for God from Science

Judah wrote:Hmm, reminds me of the title of a book by C.S. Lewis, namely God in the Dock.
Some folks persist in wanting to put Him there, our Almighty Creator Father God, and to try Him as a criminal.

Michelle, I am all for people asking questions showing all due respect, but this kind of set-up sounds more ruthless than that.

Also, I have my doubts that such a treatment of our Heavenly Father is in accordance with the Board Purpose as it is written.
Please read it over again and reconsider what you are asking of us.
Your questions are very welcome, but phrased with due respect for our beliefs which, while we hold dear, we will not mind sharing with you.

Judah wrote:Michelle, look at it this way. Why would I believe something - anything - if I did not think it was right? Of course I believe my beliefs are right. I would be silly to believe them if I actually thought otherwise.

Regarding aetheists, many of us have had plenty of experience talking to aetheists about our beliefs, or rather, offering an apologia for them when questioned. Why do you think we need to do it all over again in some court room role play when the purpose of this board is contrary to that?

We are nearly all willing to answer sincere questions from seekers, from people who are not as convinced as we are, and try to understand the argument and offer the best answer for it. At times we all experience doubts as well, but our faith is not the blind faith that lacks good sense and reason. Our faith is that step further in the very direction to which the evidence is pointing, and often pointing overwhelmingly. Many of us can give fair answers to questions, but a person needs to be willing to listen to the answer just as much as the person answering needs to listen to the question. All of this must be done with respect for the other's beliefs or non belief. Anyway, I don't think I am telling you anything you don't already know when I talk about respect.

To change the subject slightly, what I am aware of in all the posts you have made so far is (what seems to me) a fair amount of anger on your part - towards God, towards Christians, towards... I cannot be sure? You have told us of some horrific things that happened to you, and I would be surprised if you did not have some very strong feelings since you were so badly hurt and let down by those who should have known better. A court room scene with God in the dock may be a way of dealing with your anger - I don't know, I am only guessing - but I for one don't feel the need to defend Him as He is far bigger and stronger and mightier than me.

I think you will find folk here willing to answer questions if asked, and that there is really no need to take court action against Him as, despite however you perceive Him to be, He really is our very loving Heavenly Father regardless - and yes, that is my belief and I believe I am right too (or I should not be believing it!)

Gman wrote:Michelle,

Legally proving that God exists is a question that goes back thousands of years and still counting... So far we only have theories on his existence.. There are no solid facts yet... Perhaps the better question is to prove that God doesn't exist then...

One way to prove that God doesn't exist is through the theory of evolution without any divine intervention. So far, to this day of Monday 9, 2006 this still hasn't been proven, (just ask any real honest scientist or evolutionist)... Evolution is still then a theory, not a fact that is still in the works just like creationism or ID... To this very day, nobody knows how a mixture of non-living chemicals can transform itself into a living cell. Evolution claims that many things can evolve through natural selection... However, this poses a problem.. First, how is natural selection going to start since it needs living matter and second what is natural selection going to select out of a mixture of non-living chemicals in order to get life started? In other words, we don't even have an egg yet to prove that a chicken was born out of it... Does that make any sense? It's all merely conjecture and speculation...

Follow your heart....

May God be with you...

G -

Judah wrote:Michelle, look at it this way. Why would I believe something - anything - if I did not think it was right? Of course I believe my beliefs are right. I would be silly to believe them if I actually thought otherwise.

Regarding aetheists, many of us have had plenty of experience talking to aetheists about our beliefs, or rather, offering an apologia for them when questioned. Why do you think we need to do it all over again in some court room role play when the purpose of this board is contrary to that?

We are nearly all willing to answer sincere questions from seekers, from people who are not as convinced as we are, and try to understand the argument and offer the best answer for it. At times we all experience doubts as well, but our faith is not the blind faith that lacks good sense and reason. Our faith is that step further in the very direction to which the evidence is pointing, and often pointing overwhelmingly. Many of us can give fair answers to questions, but a person needs to be willing to listen to the answer just as much as the person answering needs to listen to the question. All of this must be done with respect for the other's beliefs or non belief. Anyway, I don't think I am telling you anything you don't already know when I talk about respect.

To change the subject slightly, what I am aware of in all the posts you have made so far is (what seems to me) a fair amount of anger on your part - towards God, towards Christians, towards... I cannot be sure? You have told us of some horrific things that happened to you, and I would be surprised if you did not have some very strong feelings since you were so badly hurt and let down by those who should have known better. A court room scene with God in the dock may be a way of dealing with your anger - I don't know, I am only guessing - but I for one don't feel the need to defend Him as He is far bigger and stronger and mightier than me.

I think you will find folk here willing to answer questions if asked, and that there is really no need to take court action against Him as, despite however you perceive Him to be, He really is our very loving Heavenly Father regardless - and yes, that is my belief and I believe I am right too (or I should not be believing it!)

Michelle wrote:I myself don't call myself a Christian simply because even if many years ago I make the choice to become born again, if I am not able to live fully according to all the principles and values that Christ taught then I do not have the right to call my self one.

Judah wrote:OK, that makes a bit more sense to me.

I didn't followup your question and the link you were given but noted that someone else had already responded to you there. I follow links for information and it is certainly true that they vary in the extent to which the authors substantiate what they write. I note that as I read and just keep looking elsewhere, often one link leading me to another, etc.

Something that I notice a lot on message boards, or when chatting across international lines in any context, is that people read into what is written according to the additional influence of their cultural backgrounds. Having spent a lot of time in the USA, I firmly believe that Americans are wired quite differently from Kiwis. It is subtle, but it is there. The Brits are different again. For all our cross-Tasman rivalries, I have found that Aussies and Kiwis seem to think more on the same wavelength than Kiwis and Americans. And that is additional to the usual way people normally vary in how they understand what was asked by the question. My point is that we need to be aware that folks are not always going to read us correctly, know what we are driving at, understand what we want, and respond accordingly. And then there are time restraints - folks dashing past and not having long to stop. I reckon that most folks here do the best they can with the resources they have in the time available. Also, what they give me is a gift - I have no rights to demand anything. Sometimes it will be spot on, other times far out. It pays to come back, patiently clarify your wants, have another go, and see what happens next. You may have to be very specific in order to get what you are looking for.

I share your concerns about our proximity to Indonesia, and if you get to read anything of what I have written around the place here, you will see I have a special interest in things Islam - the truth of that totalitarian ideology and what it intends for the future of all of us. I also agree with you about the Christian status of the west. It has a Judeo-Christian heritage that is fast being dismantled by elements within our postmodern age, and many who say they are Christian are only so in a cultural sense, not in any other real sense. You are right that going to church does not make one a Christian, and nor are a great many other things one might do makes one a Christian.

Which brings me to another point that you make...

Michelle wrote:I myself don't call myself a Christian simply because even if many years ago I make the choice to become born again, if I am not able to live fully according to all the principles and values that Christ taught then I do not have the right to call my self one.

Nobody can do anything to earn the right to call themselves a Christian.
Being a Christian, and doing what you expect a Christian to do, are two entirely different things. Very simply put, a Christian is someone who has accepted Christ as their lord and saviour - it is a status of being. One becomes, in relationship to Christ. There is nothing anyone can do to earn this status - beyond the act of faith it takes to say Yes Lord, I believe. All the work is done by God. He redeems. He restores. He justifies. He sanctifies.

Sometimes it is downright embarrassing when, being known as a Christian, I mess up and make a hash of things. I probably don't look like a Christian when my teenage son drives me to the brink and has me blowing my foo-foo valve. I am probably not being like what anyone would expect a Christian to be like (er, whatever that is - something angelic) but the fact remains, I am still one regardless. Even if I was actively wringing his neck, I am still a Christian. In fact, I sometimes think that when Christians shy away from confessing to others that they are Christians, it is to avoid being held accountable for their faith. But Christians are sinners just like everyone else. If serious about their walk with Christ, then they are usually working on becoming more like Him - through prayer and through submitting to the renewing work of the Holy Spirit within them. But one does not earn (by doing things) the right to be called a Christian. It is a status bestowed by the grace of God.

OK, that's more than enough from me. I hope some of what I have said is relevant to what you wrote.

Michelle wrote:Also what do you mean us Aussies and Kiwis think on the same wavelength. Aren't you Kiwis more sheepish than us?

Judah wrote:I'll forgive you this time because you come from Victoria, my favourite Aussie state. But no pushing it.