Evidence for God from Science

I often reflect on all different events in society and how their is a reason for it. One I thought of was the holocaust of the Jews. I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) that was meant to happen. In the context that it was the catalyst for something far greater. The birth of the state of Israel. What would the likelihood be of that happening without it.

Or look at it another way. How many people would have found God. When people were going to church to pray for the troops how many learnt about God for the first time. There would have been numerous people who at first went because everyone else did and it was the right thing to do. How many of them actually learnt about Christianity. Probably quite a few! And if you consider on a global scale over a long period the possibility is that there were millions.

What is so strange about it was how it (the holocaust) occurred. Hitler had been brought up with a mother who worked for a Jewish family. Not unusual. However what is strange is the fact that he had a nephew who fled to first Britain, then the US who tried to stop what he was going to do. He while working in collaboration with the US discovered details of his uncles plot and together they tried to stop him. Various times they had the opportunity to assassinate him however things went wrong. Look what the end result was.

Anyway as I was thinking about this I remembered something that occurred many years ago to a man. When I was growing up we used to have a prison for the criminally insane. Some of the crimes committed were horrific. Some were there because they were so insane they were at extreme risk to society despite not having committed any crime. I remember my church had a program that they had just recently begun at the time to try and minister to these people. It seemed almost a hopeless case. People so lost many had lost all sense of being human.

At the time a man had been transferred from the maximum security wing of Pentridge Prison Melbourne. He was too vioent even for them to handle. Too many years of being a metho drinker had caused him to become too dangerous to society. I wont say what crime he committed as that is not relevant. Anyway he was transferred over two hundred kilometres away to the other facility.

Two days after he was transferred the pastor from my church visited the institution. This man was sitting on the floor of his small cell with its concrete floor rocking back and forwards talking to someone who didn't exist. The pastor walked in (accompanied by a guard) and began to teach to word of God. Seemingly a hopeless task as the more he tried to teach the louder the man would talk to the unseem person.

Anyhow the pastor left but couldn't get this man out of his mind. The next week again he spoke to this man, but this time the man was quite and listened to every word. At the end of the pastors talk with him he asked Jesus into his heart. The amazing thing was that immediately after he did he began to change. The prison staff were amazed! Here was somebody who nobody thought could be helped. In a few weeks he was released altogether.

Sometime later after getting his life together the man related how the day the pastor came into his cell he could hear a voice telling him that he needed to accept Jesus into his life. He told how he tried to drown out the voice but it wouldn't go away. He said it drove him crazy!

What is even more amazing was the fact that God also healed him of the damage the metho had done.

The chance of this occurring without divine intervention is very low. At the time he was transferred there were a shortage of beds at the Melbourne facility. One bed had become available at the facility he was sent to. The pastor himself was not sure about the program to reach out to the insane the week before. It had only recently been started and wasn't very successful so far and he was thinking of stopping it. However something compelled him to just persist a little longer.

Sometimes God has to bring us to our knees in ways we often dont understand just so we can accept his love.

Michelle wrote:I often reflect on all different events in society and how their is a reason for it. One I thought of was the holocaust of the Jews. I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) that was meant to happen. In the context that it was the catalyst for something far greater. The birth of the state of Israel. What would the likelihood be of that happening without it.

Or look at it another way. How many people would have found God. When people were going to church to pray for the troops how many learnt about God for the first time. There would have been numerous people who at first went because everyone else did and it was the right thing to do. How many of them actually learnt about Christianity. Probably quite a few! And if you consider on a global scale over a long period the possibility is that there were millions.

What is so strange about it was how it (the holocaust) occurred. Hitler had been brought up with a mother who worked for a Jewish family. Not unusual. However what is strange is the fact that he had a nephew who fled to first Britain, then the US who tried to stop what he was going to do. He while working in collaboration with the US discovered details of his uncles plot and together they tried to stop him. Various times they had the opportunity to assassinate him however things went wrong. Look what the end result was.

Anyway as I was thinking about this I remembered something that occurred many years ago to a man. When I was growing up we used to have a prison for the criminally insane. Some of the crimes committed were horrific. Some were there because they were so insane they were at extreme risk to society despite not having committed any crime. I remember my church had a program that they had just recently begun at the time to try and minister to these people. It seemed almost a hopeless case. People so lost many had lost all sense of being human.

At the time a man had been transferred from the maximum security wing of Pentridge Prison Melbourne. He was too vioent even for them to handle. Too many years of being a metho drinker had caused him to become too dangerous to society. I wont say what crime he committed as that is not relevant. Anyway he was transferred over two hundred kilometres away to the other facility.

Two days after he was transferred the pastor from my church visited the institution. This man was sitting on the floor of his small cell with its concrete floor rocking back and forwards talking to someone who didn't exist. The pastor walked in (accompanied by a guard) and began to teach to word of God. Seemingly a hopeless task as the more he tried to teach the louder the man would talk to the unseem person.

Anyhow the pastor left but couldn't get this man out of his mind. The next week again he spoke to this man, but this time the man was quite and listened to every word. At the end of the pastors talk with him he asked Jesus into his heart. The amazing thing was that immediately after he did he began to change. The prison staff were amazed! Here was somebody who nobody thought could be helped. In a few weeks he was released altogether.

Sometime later after getting his life together the man related how the day the pastor came into his cell he could hear a voice telling him that he needed to accept Jesus into his life. He told how he tried to drown out the voice but it wouldn't go away. He said it drove him crazy!

What is even more amazing was the fact that God also healed him of the damage the metho had done.

The chance of this occurring without divine intervention is very low. At the time he was transferred there were a shortage of beds at the Melbourne facility. One bed had become available at the facility he was sent to. The pastor himself was not sure about the program to reach out to the insane the week before. It had only recently been started and wasn't very successful so far and he was thinking of stopping it. However something compelled him to just persist a little longer.

Sometimes God has to bring us to our knees in ways we often dont understand just so we can accept his love.

I think what you said says it all - "Sometimes God has to bring us to our knees in ways we often don't understand just so we can accept his love."

God truly works through things in ways we cannot fully comprehend. What was meant for evil, God in due time, will turn it around for good. There will those that will argue with you concerning the illustrations you use but do not be deterred in your Faith in Christ Jesus.

God Bless!
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B. W. wrote:

Michelle wrote:I often reflect on all different events in society and how their is a reason for it. One I thought of was the holocaust of the Jews. I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) that was meant to happen. In the context that it was the catalyst for something far greater. The birth of the state of Israel. What would the likelihood be of that happening without it.

Or look at it another way. How many people would have found God. When people were going to church to pray for the troops how many learnt about God for the first time. There would have been numerous people who at first went because everyone else did and it was the right thing to do. How many of them actually learnt about Christianity. Probably quite a few! And if you consider on a global scale over a long period the possibility is that there were millions.

What is so strange about it was how it (the holocaust) occurred. Hitler had been brought up with a mother who worked for a Jewish family. Not unusual. However what is strange is the fact that he had a nephew who fled to first Britain, then the US who tried to stop what he was going to do. He while working in collaboration with the US discovered details of his uncles plot and together they tried to stop him. Various times they had the opportunity to assassinate him however things went wrong. Look what the end result was.

Anyway as I was thinking about this I remembered something that occurred many years ago to a man. When I was growing up we used to have a prison for the criminally insane. Some of the crimes committed were horrific. Some were there because they were so insane they were at extreme risk to society despite not having committed any crime. I remember my church had a program that they had just recently begun at the time to try and minister to these people. It seemed almost a hopeless case. People so lost many had lost all sense of being human.

At the time a man had been transferred from the maximum security wing of Pentridge Prison Melbourne. He was too vioent even for them to handle. Too many years of being a metho drinker had caused him to become too dangerous to society. I wont say what crime he committed as that is not relevant. Anyway he was transferred over two hundred kilometres away to the other facility.

Two days after he was transferred the pastor from my church visited the institution. This man was sitting on the floor of his small cell with its concrete floor rocking back and forwards talking to someone who didn't exist. The pastor walked in (accompanied by a guard) and began to teach to word of God. Seemingly a hopeless task as the more he tried to teach the louder the man would talk to the unseem person.

Anyhow the pastor left but couldn't get this man out of his mind. The next week again he spoke to this man, but this time the man was quite and listened to every word. At the end of the pastors talk with him he asked Jesus into his heart. The amazing thing was that immediately after he did he began to change. The prison staff were amazed! Here was somebody who nobody thought could be helped. In a few weeks he was released altogether.

Sometime later after getting his life together the man related how the day the pastor came into his cell he could hear a voice telling him that he needed to accept Jesus into his life. He told how he tried to drown out the voice but it wouldn't go away. He said it drove him crazy!

What is even more amazing was the fact that God also healed him of the damage the metho had done.

The chance of this occurring without divine intervention is very low. At the time he was transferred there were a shortage of beds at the Melbourne facility. One bed had become available at the facility he was sent to. The pastor himself was not sure about the program to reach out to the insane the week before. It had only recently been started and wasn't very successful so far and he was thinking of stopping it. However something compelled him to just persist a little longer.

Sometimes God has to bring us to our knees in ways we often dont understand just so we can accept his love.

I think what you said says it all - "Sometimes God has to bring us to our knees in ways we often don't understand just so we can accept his love."

God truly works through things in ways we cannot fully comprehend. What was meant for evil, God in due time, will turn it around for good. There will those that will argue with you concerning the illustrations you use but do not be deterred in your Faith in Christ Jesus.

God Bless!
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Thanks B W, I am really new at this. After seeing so many terrible things over the years become like the chaos affect and being the cataylst for positive change I know God is still working even if it seems impossible! Take 9/11 for example. How many people became stronger in their faith simply because they were not going to let anyone destroy what was precious to them. Or how many people since then looked at their fellow man regardless of race creed or colour as being neighbours. Before then many people were complacent about the need for racial tolerance and acceptance of ones beliefs, however now it is politically correct to do so! We still have a long way to go, but we are getting there!

I totally agree with the topic of this thread, but I took some issue with the last sentence.

I feel very itchy about political correctness. All too often, 'acceptance of one's beliefs' means you should refrain from giving any value judgement of others' beliefs. You should accept those beliefs are as valid as your own. Of course, this relativistic, 'politically correct' attitude kills orthodox Christianity and could be at least as smothering as complacence.

Turgonian wrote:I totally agree with the topic of this thread, but I took some issue with the last sentence.

I feel very itchy about political correctness. All too often, 'acceptance of one's beliefs' means you should refrain from giving any value judgement of others' beliefs. You should accept those beliefs are as valid as your own. Of course, this relativistic, 'politically correct' attitude kills orthodox Christianity and could be at least as smothering as complacence.

I read these posts very late last night and so chose not to respond at the time, but my reaction was such that I completely share Turgy's "itch" and had concerns regarding what was being meant by "tolerance" here.

The word "tolerance" has found a new and different meaning these days from what was regarded its meaning a while back. As Turgy points out, today it is used in the sense that, to be tolerant, one must give equal validity to the views of others. There is a form of relativism at work where, to be tolerant in this sense, what I believe to be right may be right for me and what you believe to be right (even if that is different from my beliefs) is right for you. In other words, to be tolerant these days one must agree that we both have valid views even though objectively and logically they are mutually exclusive.

Does this matter? Yes it does.
It is essentially dishonest. It is a pacifier. It says we can believe totally different things and both be right. It means we can bypass the discomfort of disagreeing with each other. It is a false ground for building a relationship. It denies truth, objective truth - and as Turgy points out, it therefore kills (or attempts to kill) orthodox Christianity which is based on objective truth.

Yes, this kind of "tolerance" is politically correct and therefore fostered. It smooths over everything so that we might all live together nicely, having different points of view but no one view regarded as the objective truth on something. It is a leveller, a proponent of egalitarianism. All views become equally valid by its decree.

And by this politically correct "tolerance" a Christian can be told that he is intolerant, and Christianity is intolerant, and we all know that "intolerance" is a heinous crime these days as it causes disharmony and conflict. It is a politically correct way of damning Christianity as Christians say that their truth is the real truth - as the bold statement that Jesus made in John 14:6 (see my signature banner).

So where is my discussion heading?

I am not at all keen on the politically correct notion of tolerance where all views are given validity (are said to be equally true) because that, I believe, is a lie. But if we can acknowledge that objective truth does exists, and that we can go after it and know it, then we can learn some far more fundamental and worthwhile things upon which to base our attitudes towards each other. We will stop the fakeness of our attitudes to each other and develop something more like real love, the love of God kind of love, where there is a far deeper relationship towards each other based on honesty and reality. It takes things from being skin deep to being soul deep, from a lie to the truth, from appearances to reality. It means I will love my brother truly as I love myself, not superficially but for real, a far more meaningful relationship than one based on the falsehood of political correctness.

Turgonian wrote:I totally agree with the topic of this thread, but I took some issue with the last sentence.

I feel very itchy about political correctness. All too often, 'acceptance of one's beliefs' means you should refrain from giving any value judgement of others' beliefs. You should accept those beliefs are as valid as your own. Of course, this relativistic, 'politically correct' attitude kills orthodox Christianity and could be at least as smothering as complacence.

It is one thing to be respectful of diverse view points and another thing to be tolerant as defined by political correctness.

Let me state one specific method of how evil works. It seeks to appeal as good and noble. It promises great swelling words in order to deceive and beguile. It seeks to use words from the bible concerning love and tolerance in a manner that attempts to entrap one in their words by always saying - has not God said this or that about that and this. Evil does so to bring about division, sow discord, slay, rob, and destroy.

Modern political correctness and moral relativism does just that when it tries to redefine biblical definitions about God's Love. Love is redefined to mean unbridled acceptance of all points of view as equal and valid. Let me state, it is one thing to show respect for other points of view in manner of dialog for understanding and it is another to accept all things as true based on the principles of political correctness and moral relativism.

Let me state that this is my opinion alone and I use to illustrate this point: because I am Christian, must I love the Muslim Religion because God is love as it is written - he who does not love is not of God?

Evil loves to twist scriptures to entrap people before slaying them. However the bible also tell us in Ecc 3 that there is a time for war and a time for peace, As Christians, we better realize what time it really is before a sword comes. Modern political correctness and moral relativism turns the back to danger presenting a willing throat to be cut in the name of tolerance. Evil love that. 9/11 proved it.
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B. W. wrote:

Turgonian wrote:I totally agree with the topic of this thread, but I took some issue with the last sentence.

I feel very itchy about political correctness. All too often, 'acceptance of one's beliefs' means you should refrain from giving any value judgement of others' beliefs. You should accept those beliefs are as valid as your own. Of course, this relativistic, 'politically correct' attitude kills orthodox Christianity and could be at least as smothering as complacence.

It is one thing to be respectful of diverse view points and another thing to be tolerant as defined by political correctness.

Let me state one specific method of how evil works. It seeks to appeal as good and noble. It promises great swelling words in order to deceive and beguile. It seeks to use words from the bible concerning love and tolerance in a manner that attempts to entrap one in their words by always saying - has not God said this or that about that and this. Evil does so to bring about division, sow discord, slay, rob, and destroy.

Modern political correctness and moral relativism does just that when it tries to redefine biblical definitions about God's Love. Love is redefined to mean unbridled acceptance of all points of view as equal and valid. Let me state, it is one thing to show respect for other points of view in manner of dialog for understanding and it is another to accept all things as true based on the principles of political correctness and moral relativism.

Let me state that this is my opinion alone and I use to illustrate this point: because I am Christian, must I love the Muslim Religion because God is love as it is written - he who does not love is not of God?

Evil loves to twist scriptures to entrap people before slaying them. However the bible also tell us in Ecc 3 that there is a time for war and a time for peace, As Christians, we better realize what time it really is before a sword comes. Modern political correctness and moral relativism turns the back to danger presenting a willing throat to be cut in the name of tolerance. Evil love that. 9/11 proved it.
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When referring to political correctness I am meaning despite diversity in beliefs we still accept each other and are able to tell each other just what it is we do believe. Sometimes people see political correctness as an instrument of persecution against Christians. My mum thought so! However I see it as a wonderful way to reach people. Show by example! The number of times I have heard people begin to show an interest in Christianity because they see examples of things (charity, compassion, love) that they do. Political correctness can work for us by ensuring that we focus on this instead of which is the right belief or not. When we focus only on what is the right or wrong belief people have a tendency to think we are hypocrites who attack people. However if we lead by example then say we believe what we do because of such and such a thing people are more likely to take notice. I mean we can still say that we accept people despite having other beliefs, but to us this is why we believe what we do.

Imagine a person who has never been in any form of religious upbringing. If they want to establish a belief that suits them just think how it must look to them if they hear a Christian attacking others for their beliefs while claiming that there is a God that loved the whole world (John 3-16). To them it sounds like we don't practice what they preach. And remember that there are many people around who have never heard what Christianity is even about and have never been inside a church.

I myself have Jewish, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, atheists, and persons with tribal beliefs as my friends and we get on like a house on fire. When other people see us they cant work out why we are so ready to accept each other. We never push our beliefs onto each other or anyone else yet I still have people asking me what Christianity is all about. When they ask I think that is great because I can tell them about the Lord at a time when they are ready to know! It is a timing thing! Take for example today. I had to go to another town and the lady who took me asked me what being a Christian was. She doesn't go to Church, however she is curious to go 'just this once', because as she puts it 'there is something different' that she sees. It is a start!


Anyway, my post originally was intended to make people think of all the things that have happened in their lives that would not have occurred if it weren't for God. In my last Pro-Choice post I explained why I wasn't able to have a Bible. As I was writing it I thought of all the things that have happened to me to lead me to where I am today.


1. What if I didn't get so ill that I desperately needed help. I did and it led me to getting a doctors report to back up my claim for emergency assistance.

2. Why did my ex suddenly change his mind at that particular point of time, allowing me to establish friends when he did not want me to have any at all.

3. When I finally got my house, why was it that it came up in an area that is close to everything that I need, including transport, medical, education and so on. The area that I originally intended to move had no vacant homes despite being newly established. There should have been several homes available yet the waiting list increased so much that it was impossible to get a house there only six weeks after I put in my application. The area I am in now normally doesn't have any houses available. This home came up just at the right time.

4. When I needed to get furniture (second-hand) everything I required was on sale for two weeks only at half price and everything added up to the exact amount of money I had.

5. Where I moved to had a branch of a political party that I wanted to join precisely in that area. Furthermore that particular branch had people that had known my father going back over thirty- eight years earlier, yet I didn't even know these people myself. I lost contact with my father over thirty years ago and learnt only about ten years ago that he had died. Also this political party has put me in touch with the trade union movement which is helping me with my university studies on politics.

6. When I was looking for a Church to attend why was it that I ended up going to the one I chose. There are nine Churches in the area and I chose this one. Or should I say God chose it, because I could clearly hear a voice telling me to go to this Church. In fact it was so strong that it was impossible to ignore. When I got to that Church and introduced myself I met a man who knew my mother from sometime back but had lost contact with her. He had been praying that someone would help him get in contact again.

7. Finally why was it that after having joined the political party I did and learnt how to put in submissions to the government there was a review of the Domestic Violence Act. Because of what I went through I was able to put forward a submission.


Has anyone else thought of where they are now and all the steps that have led them to it?