Muslim Leaders Communication to the Pope

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:12 am

I'm posting this news story as I believe it gives a good reflection in terms of the reaction to the comments made by the Pope recently that caused so much furor.

It's a shame that this response from Islamic leaders around the world has to be made against the backdrop of Churches destroyed and a Nun murdered in my opinion. I note that there is also present in the letter a condemnation of these things which the letter states are unislamic. This is progress in my opinion.

I'm placing this article not to create a new thread on Islam vs Christianity but to be proactive in allowing for there to be some balance in the information presented and to hear from different perspectives when they are presented in a peaceful and rational manner.

________________________________________________________

http://www.catholic.org/international/i ... p?id=21624

Pope erred in Islam speech, Muslim leaders assert in open letter, condemning violence
10/16/2006
Catholic Online (http://www.catholic.org)

AMMAN, Jordan (Catholic Online) — Pope Benedict XVI erred in assertions and made misstatements about Islam in a September address that provoked a storm of protests from the Muslim community, said an open letter signed by 38 Muslim scholars, officials and chief muftis from more than two dozen countries throughout the world.

The Oct. 15 “Open letter to his holiness Pope Benedict XVI,” which was to be delivered to the Vatican envoy in Amman on that day, said the Muslim leaders accepted the pontiff's “unprecedented personal expression of sorrow and … clarification and assurance that your quote does not reflect you own personal opinion,” and applauded his efforts “to oppose the dominance of positivism and materialism in human life.”

The letter was posted Oct. 14 on the Islamica Magazine Web site, a quarterly based in Los Angeles, Calif.

“In the spirit of open exchange,” the 38 Muslim leaders said, they hoped to use Pope Benedict's reference to the comments of the 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus as “the starting point for a discourse on the relationship between reason and faith.”

In his Sept. 12 address at the University of Regensburg during his pilgrimage to Germany, Benedict, in rejecting any religious motivation for violence, quoted between the emperor's characterization of some teachings of Islam's founder, the Prophet Mohammad, including about jihad or holy war. "He said, I quote,” said the pope of the emperor, “'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'”

The pope said that the emperor, in his dialogue with an unnamed Muslim scholar, must have been aware of early Islamic teaching that "there is no compulsion in religion" as well as later Quran precepts about “holy war.”

Among other issues the pope touched on in his remarks included why spreading the faith through coercion is unreasonable as violence is “contrary to the nature of God" and whether God is absolutely transcendent for Muslims and not bound up with "any of our categories, even that of rationality."

Since then, Pope Benedict has stated several times that he did not share the emperor's views on Islam, though agreed with the relationship expressed between faith and reason.

“We must point out,” the letter reads, “some errors in the way you mentioned Islam as a counterpoint to the proper use of reason, as well as some mistakes in the assertions you put forward in support of your argument.”

The 38 Muslim leaders suggested that the pope's reference to the “learned Persian” painted an inaccurate picture of Islam calling him a “very marginal figure” belonging to a “school of jurisprudence which is followed by no one in the Islamic world today.”

“'Holy war' is not an Islamic term, the clerics, scholars and officials said, noting that the world jihad “means struggle, and specifically struggle in the way of God.”

“This struggle may take many forms, including the use of force,” they said. “Though a jihad may be sacred in the sense of being directed toward a sacred ideal, it is not necessarily a 'war.'”

The letter points to Jesus throwing out the money-changers in the temple quoted in the New Testament and the Old Testament account of God's drowning of Pharaoh as places where Christianity acknowledges that violence does not go against “God's nature,” while it notes that “cruelty, brutality and aggression are against God's will.”

Islamic “authoritative and traditional” understanding of war, the Muslim leaders said, notes that non-combatants cannot be legitimate targets, religion cannot be the sole reason to attack another and, beyond legitimate self-defense and maintenance of sovereignty, Muslims must live peacefully with their neighbors.

“If some have disregarded a long and well-established tradition” of Islam, they said, “where the end justifies the means, they have done so of their own accord and without the sanction of God, his Prophet or the learned tradition.”

The Muslim leaders condemned the Sept. 17 murder of Italian Consolata missionary Sister Leonella Sgorbati in Somalia and “other similar acts of wanton individual violence” in reaction to the pope's comments on Islam “is completely un-Islamic.”

They said that the pope's reference of the phrase “there is no compulsion in religion” was not from early Islam, but rather from its later political and military ascendancy. It served, the leaders said, as “a reminder to Muslims themselves, once they attained power, that they could not force another's heart to believe.”

“This verse,” they stressed, “was precisely an answer to them not to try to force their children to convert to Islam” from Judaism or Christianity.

They called the pontiff's assertions that Islam teaches that God is absolutely transcendent and not bound up with Western categories, including rationality, are each “a simplification which can be misleading.”

“To conclude that Muslims believe in a capricious God who might or might not command us to evil is to forget that God says in the Quran, 'Lo! God enjoins justice and kindness, and giving to kinsfolk and forbids lewdness and abomination and wickedness.' … Equally, it is to forget that God says in the Quran that 'He has prescribed for himself mercy,' and … 'My mercy encompasses everything.'”

“Is it not self-evident,” they asked, “that spilling innocent blood goes against mercy and compassion?”

The 38 scholars, clerics and officials attacked the notion that Islam commands its faithful to “spread their faith 'by the sword,'” or that it has been largely spread by coercion.

“Islamic teaching did not prescribe that the conquered populations be forced or coerced into converting,” they said. “Had Muslims desired to convert all others by force, there would not be a single church or synagogue left anywhere in the Islamic world.”

While noting that “history shows that some Muslims have violated Islamic tenets concerning forced conversion and the treatment of other religious communities,” the Muslim leaders stressed that “forcing others to believe — if such a thing be truly possible at all — is not pleasing to God and that God is not pleased by blood.”

The letter questions the emperor's assertion that that which Mohammad brought as new to religious understanding was “evil and inhuman.” “The Prophet,” it said, “never claimed to be bringing anything fundamentally new.”

“Faith in the one God is not the property of any one religious community,” the leaders continued. “According to Islamic belief, all the true prophets preached the same truth to different peoples at different times. The laws may be different, but the truth is unchanging.”

The 38 Muslim clerics, scholars and officials noted the roles both faiths play in the world community, and the special role that the pope plays on the global stage.

The relationship between Christianity and Islam, as the largest and second largest religions in the world accounting for more than 55 percent of the its population, is “the most important factor in contributing to meaningful peace around the world.”

“Yours is arguable the single most influential voice in continuing to move this relationship forward in the direction of mutual understanding,” they said.

“We share your desire for frank and sincere dialogue, and recognize its important in an increasingly interconnected world. Upon this sincere and frank dialogue, we hope to continue to build peaceful and friendly relationships based upon mutual respect, justice and what is common in essence in our share Abrahamic tradition,” they said. The 38 expressed Muslims' appreciation for the pope's expression of sorrow and clarification and his Sept. 25 statement of “total and profound respect for all Muslims” to a group of ambassadors from Islamic countries. “We hope,” the leaders concluded, “we will all avoid the mistakes of the past and live together in the future in peace, mutual acceptance and respect.”

The signers of the “open letter” included:

- Grand muftis from Russia, Turkey, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, Syria, Egypt, Oman, Croatia, Kosovo and Uzbekistan.

- Educators from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Morocco, the United States, Gambia, Egypt, Malaysia, Belgium, Jordan and the United Kingdom.

- Other leaders from Yemen, the United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Iraq, India, Morocco, Indonesia, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Bosnia.

ray · Post by **ray** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:21 pm

You might also want to read this to see what Muslim leaders are saying.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33898

Ray

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:30 pm

ray wrote:You might also want to read this to see what Muslim leaders are saying.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33898

Ray

I don't find that article to be particularly compelling. It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

Here's some background on the source site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Net_Daily

There are enough legitimate issues to deal with and understand without inventing some.

My opinion anyway. Others are entitled to theirs as well.

I'm conservative, but this type of News Outlet along with NewsMax doesn't strike me as particularly fair in their presentation of many stories.

Bart

Judah · Post by **Judah** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:38 pm

The full text of the letter to Pope Benedict can be found here:
Open Letter to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI

I am both troubled by this letter, and heartened by it - two opposed reactions which has me wanting to treat it very cautiously. I will comment on both reactions for others to know what are my concerns.

1. The part that heartens me

An impressive list of significant Muslim intellectual and political figures have put their signatures to this letter - 38 of them in all. These people have now committed themselves to the statements that they have made in the text of the letter. These statements present a less aggressive form of Islam with condemnation for the violence that we are seeing on a daily basis (yes daily - click here and scroll towards end of page) and by signing their names to this letter they may be held accountable to the statements they make as facts about Islam.

That these people have come together may be the beginning of an authoritative voice of Islam that can moderate the thinking and actions of those who behave outside the claims to the nature of Islam as made in this letter. It may be the beginnings of a movement towards reformation of Islam, something to be greatly encouraged.

2. The part that troubles me

Islam has embedded within it a sanction that permits deception - the principles of al-taqiyya and kitman which allow lying in certain circumstances, one of those being to effect a peace or reconciliation.

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali, one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians of all time, says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

This subject is discussed in detail here by Vernon Richards in his e-book, Islam Undressed.

There are statements in the letter which are not supported consistently within Islam and do not stack up with the reality of current world events, nor with the history of Islam. Here are a few:

~ The issue of abrogation of Surah 2:256. The signatories to the letter deny its abrogation whereas many other Islamic scholars quoting the Qur'an on the subject do not. Who is right?
~ There is the glaring omission of dhimmitude used as a means of "persuading" non-Muslims to convert to Islam through harsh subjugation laws including penalties such as jizya, the extra taxes levied upon them.
~ The one-sided view of jihad plays down the external warring side supported by the Qur'an and well documented here. Historically Islam is well known for its "bloody borders" and offensive wars.

According to one calculation, Muhammad himself engaged in 78 battles, of which just one (the Battle of the Ditch) was defensive. Within a century after the prophet's death, Muslim armies had reached as far as India in the east and Spain in the west....In the 7th century A.D. Muhammad's Bedouins defeated the Persian and eastern Roman empires, and conquered the Middle East, North Africa, and Spain. This period, referred to as Islam's 'golden years', is what many Muslims aspire to be restored. The invaders eventually were stopped in the east in 718 at the city walls of Constantinople, and in the west in 732 some 200 miles from Paris. There followed another thousand years of seesaw wars on sea and land before the last Middle Eastern attack on a major European city, Vienna, which was repulsed in 1683. Those who expect Muslims to drop their belligerence toward the West, which has existed since Islam's founding in the 7th century, expect them to jettison core values of their faith - something for which there is no precedent in Islamic history.
Source

It is not proven that Pope Benedict, a learned and reputable scholar, made the errors that this letter proposes that he did. We must await the outcome of further dialogue between His Holiness and the signatories of this letter or their representatives.
Another view is presented in M.A. Khan's essay Was the Pope Wrong? and it is worth considering some of the points made there.

My concerns have not yet been addressed by the signatories to this letter. There is still a great deal of ground to cover, and reformation to occur within Islam - if that is possible at all.

The Islamic Agenda is supported by the strategy of Islamicization of Europe published in 1980 by the Islamic Council of Europe, quoted here from the website of Dr Patrick Sookhdeo (International Director of the Barnabas Fund and the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity. Dr Sookhdeo holds a PhD from the School of Oriental and African Studies, London University and was awarded a Doctor of Divinity by Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon for his work in the field of pluralism.)

Europe is undergoing a rapid process of change as Muslims make their presence felt in politics, economics, law, education and the media. While there is a wide range of attitudes amongst Muslims in Europe, with many who are broadly content with the status quo and just want to live their lives peacefully, others are striving deliberately to drive forward the changes. As a result of the efforts of the latter, Europe is gradually being transformed into a society in which Islam takes its place, not just as an equal alongside the many other faith communities, but often as the dominant player. This is not purely, or even primarily, a matter of numbers, but is more a matter of control of the structures of society. It is not happening by chance but is the result of a careful and deliberate strategy by certain Muslim leaders.

Though the effects are only now becoming noticeable, the planning was done decades ago. In 1980 the Islamic Council of Europe published a book called Muslim Communities in Non-Muslim States which clearly explained the Islamic agenda in Europe. When Muslims live as a minority they face theological problems, because classical Islamic teaching always presupposed a context of Islamic dominance; hence the need for guidance on how to live in non-Muslim states. The instructions given in the book told Muslims to get together and organise themselves with the aim of establishing a viable Muslim community based on Islamic principles. This is the duty of every individual Muslim living within a non-Muslim political entity. They should set up mosques, community centres and Islamic schools. At all costs they must avoid being assimilated by the majority. In order to resist assimilation, they must group themselves geographically, forming areas of high Muslim concentration within the population as a whole. Yet they must also interact with non-Muslims so as to share the message of Islam with them. Every Muslim individual is required to participate in the plan; it is not allowed for anyone simply to live as a “good Muslim” without assisting the overall strategy. The ultimate goal of this strategy is that the Muslims should become a majority and the entire nation be governed according to Islam. (M. Ali Kettani “The Problems of Muslim Minorities and their Solutions” in Muslim Communities in Non-Muslim States (London: Islamic Council of Europe, 1980) pp.96-105)
Source

In light of the statement from the Islamic Council of Europe, consider the reported words of Omar Ahmad, co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. In 1998 he addressed a gathering of Muslims in California and urged them not to shirk their duty of sharing the Islamic faith with non-believers, advising them not to assimilate but to be "open to society without melting (into it)", keeping mosques open so anyone can learn about Islam. He then went on to say that..."If you choose to live here (in America) ... you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam. Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." Five years later he denied saying this, the truth of the report was re-asserted, and Ahmad did not follow up. Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for CAIR, made the same point more positively in 2003, saying that if Muslims ever become a majority in the United States, it would be safe to assume that they would want to replace the U.S. Constitution with Islamic law, as most Muslims believe that God's law is superior to man-made law.
Source

There are clearly mixed voices in Islam, and we do not know yet which will prove to be the strongest. The reality that we see before our eyes - the increasing encroachment of Islam into Western civilization with its attempts to engulf and dominate, combined with the agression and bloodshed, and demands for appeasement - will need to be stopped if we are to believe anything at all of the voices from the other side of Islam.

My concern is that it may not be another side at all, but just another "more gentlemanly" surge of Islam through the efforts of its intellectuals to give us hope when that hope is only an illusion.

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:49 pm

Judah,

You've studied this far deeper than I have.

I have reservations and concerns as well. I just think that when we state on one hand that moderate voices need to speak up and be heard, that when they do we should note it as a positive development. I don't endorse all that they say in the letter. A letter with some public names signed with some recognition of the violence previously engaged in being repudiated and attempting to open dialogue is more than I've seen in the past, and so I think it only fair to give credit where it is due.

I'm finishing a book now by a friend of mine who was a missionary to Muslims in Africa and then in the Paris Suburbs for 8 years called 911 to 666. It's a bit of an eschatological foray into dispensationalism, but he gives a great deal of insight from his personal experience and observations as to what the average Muslim in the street thinks of the US, why they do and what the practical impact is in terms of their world view and why radical Islam has rooted so deeply in so many.

I'll do a review when I'm finished and have some time to do it justice.

Bart

Aviatrix · Post by **Aviatrix** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:00 pm

Thanks Bart, I'm really glad you posted this article here.. I agree with your sentiment about the WND article... conspiracy theory. Unfortunately, I don't think the readers will agree with you, like Judah for example, who was quick to turn this into yet another attack on Islam.

Judah... I don't know what to tell you. Show me a bonafide Islamic scholar who says that 2:256 was abrogated... I dare ya. Arab Christians don't count. Converts out of Islam don't count.

I don't think I will understand why it is that people think that Muslims are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the world, why we're all part of some great conspiracy. Sounds like paranoia. Nor do I think I'll ever understand why people keep repeating the same lies (they are flat out lies) about Islam. Nor do I understand why a Muslim state is so terrifying. I mean, I'm not tuned into that same propaganda machine, I guess. There is no Muslim state, not anywhere in the world. It's not that Muslims are encroaching on the West trying to take it over. They're leaving their homes and moving here because their own governments are so backwards and corrupt! Trying to take over... yeah right... most Muslims that move here could care less about politics. We have to practically force them to just register to vote (which they should do, as citizens: inform themselves of the laws, the candidates, and vote.)

I think similar claims being made against Islam today were made as Catholics began "infesting" the country... but they fit in, the country adapted and improved from it.

My favorite scholar is Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, an American convert to Islam. He's made a video presentation that is pretty excellent (imo) in response to the pope, that is informed and fair. I'd like to post it if anyone's interested.

The hardest (most troubling) thing for me to read in Judah's posts is that he actually thinks he knows more about Islam than the Muslim scholars, and he's going to insist that they're outrightly lying. When people believe this, how is there ever going to be resolution?

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:09 pm

Aviatrix wrote:Thanks Bart, I'm really glad you posted this article here.. I agree with your sentiment about the WND article... conspiracy theory. Unfortunately, I don't think the readers will agree with you, like Judah for example, who was quick to turn this into yet another attack on Islam.

Judah... I don't know what to tell you. Show me a bonafide Islamic scholar who says that 2:256 was abrogated... I dare ya. Arab Christians don't count. Converts out of Islam don't count.

I don't think I will understand why it is that people think that Muslims are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the world, why we're all part of some great conspiracy. Sounds like paranoia. Nor do I think I'll ever understand why people keep repeating the same lies (they are flat out lies) about Islam. Nor do I understand why a Muslim state is so terrifying. I mean, I'm not tuned into that same propaganda machine, I guess. There is no Muslim state, not anywhere in the world. It's not that Muslims are encroaching on the West trying to take it over. They're leaving their homes and moving here because their own governments are so backwards and corrupt! Trying to take over... yeah right... most Muslims that move here could care less about politics. We have to practically force them to just register to vote (which they should do, as citizens: inform themselves of the laws, the candidates, and vote.)

I think similar claims being made against Islam today were made as Catholics began "infesting" the country... but they fit in, the country adapted and improved from it.

My favorite scholar is Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, an American convert to Islam. He's made a video presentation that is pretty excellent (imo) in response to the pope, that is informed and fair. I'd like to post it if anyone's interested.

The hardest (most troubling) thing for me to read in Judah's posts is that he actually thinks he knows more about Islam than the Muslim scholars, and he's going to insist that they're outrightly lying. When people believe this, how is there ever going to be resolution?

Aviatrix,

Judah is a she, just like you.

She and I may have a little different approach to how we get to our positions, but I've not found her to be unreasonable and she has a good basis in terms of authoritative voices in this area to pull from.

You may want to take a look at her website, which is linked in her signature and consider what she has to say and examine the sources.

You strike me as a more reasonable person in many regards than many who simply hold to their own positions without considering what others have to say.

You don't have to agree with it, but consider this from the point of view of Christians observations as to what is happening in the realm of Islam on an international scale and you should understand why the concerns are there.

In the end, it is not all that important what you say, Judah says or I say. What is important in this regard is what the people promoting the violence and totalitarian version of Islam are saying and even more important what they are doing.

Do you think it possible that factions and wishful thinking perhaps in factions of Islam outside that are already more westernized, such as you appear to be, are not really seeing things from the position of the average Muslim actually in the middle east and involved with these theocrasies?

Just a thought,

We're really not wanting to bash Islam for its own sake here. These are legitimate concerns based on real events and trends in current events.

Bart

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:28 pm

They said that the pope's reference of the phrase “there is no compulsion in religion” was not from early Islam, but rather from its later political and military ascendancy. It served, the leaders said, as “a reminder to Muslims themselves, once they attained power, that they could not force another's heart to believe.”

“This verse,” they stressed, “was precisely an answer to them not to try to force their children to convert to Islam” from Judaism or Christianity.

They called the pontiff's assertions that Islam teaches that God is absolutely transcendent and not bound up with Western categories, including rationality, are each “a simplification which can be misleading.”

Bart,

This may be a bit off topic, but the more I look into that verse “there is no compulsion in religion” the more I see it doesn't matter if it was stated before, after, in the middle, sideways, before or after Mecca, abrogated, etc. throughout the book...

I don't have a lexicon of the Quran and I don't even know what "compulsion" means here.. But if that is THE verse of all verses that makes it right, then I say let them have it... I would say that it is a pretty weak horn to blow.. No offense..

If you want to blow a trumpet, you better make it LOUD and colorful...

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God,and God in him.

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

God wants NO MAN to perish…

Genesis 50:19-20 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

Genesis 45:5-7 And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. 6 For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will not be plowing and reaping. 7 But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God doesn't like to see the death of anyone!! That means anyone..

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

Lamentations 3:33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If you are going to eat steak, you might as well make it Filet Mignon... That's it for me...

Aviatrix · Post by **Aviatrix** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:40 pm

In the end, it is not all that important what you say, Judah says or I say. What is important in this regard is what the people promoting the violence and totalitarian version of Islam are saying and even more important what they are doing.

Do you think it possible that factions and wishful thinking perhaps in factions of Islam outside that are already more westernized, such as you appear to be, are not really seeing things from the position of the average Muslim actually in the middle east and involved with these theocrasies?

Hi Bart.

Already you have inflated the importance of a tiny minority of crazy people. What is important is what people in power say, people who have the power to influence large populations. It is important what the media say. It is important what the UN says, and diplomats. It is important what everyone says... because it either represents an opinion, or influences an opinion (or both.)

And unfortunately I think you've made the assumption that a tiny minority of crazy people has power of Islam, has power over Muslim, and has power over the West. They are, like I said, a tiny minority of crazy people. The issue is not simple, it isn't good vs. evil. Neither side is all good nor totaly evil. And both sides are being manipulated (internally and externally.)

I don't come up with my opinion out of thin air. I have a network of friends in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and the Subcontinent. I don't make up my opinion about what these people think of their governments. Not only do I have friends living in these awful places (who want desperately reform or to leave), but I have friends who have come from these places, who lived there, who visit there. So I will say that my opinion is in line with the average Muslim.

Something to understand about Muslims is that we are united in our faith. Simply by being Muslim, strangers become our brothers and sisters. I don't like to see my brothers and sisters suffering, at anyone's hand. If Muslims are so powerful, why are they the ones dying? Why are the Muslims the ones who get killed in car bombings, aerial attacks, whatever. From all sides.

The Muslims can't even get over themselves and you're afraid they'll take over the world? Come on. They want what you want. To worship God in a safe place, to raise a family, to cherish life.

Just because I talk to Muslims living around the world on a regular basis, I'm going to ask you to trust that I know how they feel. Who else would you like to trust? Do you see average-Joe Muslims being interviewed on TV?

Muslims are subject to lies just like Americans are, they fall into conspiracy theory traps (I'm so sick of hearing Muslims say the US gov't did 9/11, they need to grow up.) Many of those Muslims don't know what a great country America is. They don't know that women can wear hijab (scarf) and jilbab (dress/overcoat) in America without people harassing them. They don't know that Americans value family relationships and gather together regularly to nurture those bonds. They don't know that Americans in general are religious, calm, peace-loving people. They don't know that, because they see American TV, and they see a country that seems to have its hand against them.

You see how both sides misunderstand each other?

Can't we come to an understanding here?

That's what I'm trying to do.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:44 pm

Aviatrix.. I'm more worried about the doctrine than the people...

Aviatrix · Post by **Aviatrix** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:54 pm

Knowledge is power.

Fear is ignorance.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:59 pm

You could have all the knowledge of the world and it still wouldn't save you..

Perfect love casts out all fear..

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Canuckster1127 · Post by **Canuckster1127** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:30 pm

Aviatrix,

I understand what you are saying.

This is where I am coming from however in my analysis and understanding of the dynamics involved.

In addition to my background as a former pastor and consultant in the Federal Govt, I'm in the midst of a Master of Science Degree in Organizational Leadership which is a branch of Psychology.

Within a large group, it is not necessary for a majority to hold a radical course to affect or even determine the direction of a large group. A popular book which deals with this type of phenomenon is "Tipping Point." Within large groups and communities there are charismatic people who tend to arise and by virtue of their personal appeal, charisma and capturing of the sentiment of the group they begin to put forth ideas, direction or values which begin to be accepted or listened to within the group. The process is not one of steady growth, over time. There's a phenomena within group dynamics, that when a seminal idea gets momentum it hits a level within the group where it begins to direct the whole movement. That may be 5% or 10% but it usually hits a tipping point where the idea or concept sweeps through the group and is greatly impacted even though they all may not necessarily embrace, or completely understand the dynamics of what is happening.

This type of principal is used in many different contexts. Politics, marketing, advertising etc. are picking up on this phenomenon and attempting to create what they refer to as viral messages through key people.

I suspect, based on my reading that the actual percentage of militant Muslims who are embracing and promoting Wahabbi Islam for instance (although it is not the only form of militant Islam) is maybe 5% (although certainly much higher in Saudi Arabia and likely significantly lower in a secularized nation such as Turkey for instance.

When you combine these type of religious thoughts and combine it with poverty, percieved socio-economic deprivation, the poison of anti-semitism fanned by the Palestian conflict and then further take into account the reluctance of the more moderate majority to stand up to such radicalism then you have all the elements necessary to fan the flames into what I see happening in the middle east and Islam.

The protestations of westernized muslims not withstanding, I think there is more at work here than what some are willing to see.

Christianity went through waters like this in history. I think a qualitative difference in what brought Christianity to reformation and redirection at some levels, was that the things that were happening were very much against the direct teaching of the Bible and the words of Christ. As reading and printing put this in the hands of the people the political and nationalistic interests that had hijacked the institutions of the Church were opposed from within as well as without and today you do not have any very strong movements within Christendom on the basis of religion advocating violence.

This does not appear to be as true in Islam because, as stated before I do not believe that the Quran has the balance within itself to bring about this type of moderation or reform.

I appreciate that you disagree. I'm not seeking to be unreasonable or to stereotype all Muslims. However the truth of the crisis we are observing in the Middle East today certainly is indicative of violence being done in the name of Islam and strong evidence of a tipping point having been reached that is defining the movement.

I'm more concerned about the thinking and actions of those actually in the forefront of the movement than I am the people on the sidelines with their own agendas trying to explain it away.

This is a centuries old movement that is moving toward its logical conclusion based upon beliefs rooted in the Quran which is a very different document than the Bible in terms of the values it promotes.

I'm encouraged when I see signs of moderation. But there is a lot moving against it to where it has to be a lot more than what I'm seeing. I'll give credit where it is due where I can however.

Bart

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:46 pm

Aviatrix wrote:Knowledge is power.

Fear is ignorance.

Did I goof somewhere? If I did sorry..

Judah · Post by **Judah** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:16 pm

Bart, I would dearly love to see a reformation in Islam whereby the aggressive agenda is dropped in every respect. My response to that letter was as I described - conflicted. If these 38 Muslim scholars and political figures can make a difference by bringing in a more moderate Islam - more like that to which Aviatrix subscribes - and (this is the essential part) behavioural changes throughout the Islamic world, that is certainly what I am hoping will happen. That is indeed to be encouraged.

I also voiced my reasons for concern here. I believe I have substantiated them well enough with the links I have provided. They are my concerns whether they are those of others or not. I don't believe I need justify them any further.

My concern is also for revealing the truth, not for hiding it such that we are not wise to what is reality. Reality is truth; truth is reality - they are pretty closely related if we are speaking of objective truth. Given the background of the reality of world events, the reality of Qur'anic doctrine, the reality of Islam as practiced in Middle Eastern countries - ignoring these things is just plain foolish. Yes, they make me feel cautious. So I shall wait cautiously for what transpires next, hoping that if these 38 gentlemen do have power and influence and authority in Islam, then we should see a radical change of behaviour compared to the atrocities currently committed in the name of Allah. I hope they will prove to have more charisma (and thus the Tipping Point) than the Muslims who whip up the majorities to outrage and acts of barbarism and terrorism.

Aviatrix, the internet name I use has duped you into thinking I have one of those Y chromosomes, but a visit to my website would have revealed that I don't.

I wish you would realize that I am not "attacking" Islam in the way you think I am. I often think, when I read what you post, how much I wish most other Muslims believed as you do. The facts are that they don't - or not enough of them do. Until that is the case, there is still much reform required within Islam.

With regard to the article to which Ray linked, unfortunately, there are listed items in there that are true. I don't have the time to comment further on that today, but maybe another time later.

Gman, you added another focus which I appreciated, the verses from Scripture that speak of peace and love. As you said: If you are going to eat steak, you might as well make it Filet Mignon...

Evidence for God from Science

Muslim Leaders Communication to the Pope

Muslim Leaders Communication to the Pope

Muslim leaders

Re: Muslim leaders