Now, because I feel you've twisted entirely what I meant, I have to clarify myself.
I'm sorry if you feel I've twisted your words. I however do not agree, but it's all relative (down here at least).
I have an honest question and look only for a reasonable answer.
Christianity is clear, the only way to God is through Christ! I'd advocate there being two standards—to those who have heard the gospel, they are judged according to their response to Christ and the gospel. To those who have not heard, they are judged according to their response to natural revelation (which appears to the implications from the verses I quoted previously in Romans).
Yes. I get your point. My question still stands. According to your own words, those who HAVE heard the gospel are judged according to the response to that story. Those who have NOT heard are judged according to their response to natural revelation, meaning finding God in nature with no external cues. So, assuming that person has a relationship with God in some form, then they will go to Heaven. Without knowing or accepting Jesus.
Looks like according to Christianity, I'm a goner. I fall into the first category. I've been exposed to Christianity, through no fault of my own, so I WILL be judged. Too bad for me I guess. I know God very truly and personally. I enjoy a happy life, I love my wife, am active in the community and respect and wonder at God's creation. But looks like since I was presented with Christianity, then I'm on the fast-track to Hell. Bummer. If only no one had told me about Christianity then I would be with God forever after I die.
Googaly Jesus is God, and all godly men will receive him. Now if we preach to a group of tribesman, then does who receive him would have gone to heaven anyway prior to hearing about Jesus as they are devoid of the level of evil such as in the Jewish Leaders that prevented them from seeing that Jesus was the truth.
But what of the person who decides the Christian story is not for them? What if they say “Thanks, but I'd rather know God the way I've always known Him”? Then that person would go to Hell, when they were going to Heaven before. Just because a person does not agree with your exact recipe for Salvation does not mean they cannot know God and truly love Him and lead a deeply meaningful and fulfilled life. For this person, the introduction of Christianity presented the opportunity for Hell.
Now anyone who doesn't receive Christ, then clearly the Kingdom of God isn't for them. We are merely enriching the lives of those who wish to come to God. Hell is for those who don't believe, not for the believer.
Whoa! Don't assume that someone who does not “receive Christ” is not interested in knowing God. I am living proof. I know a loving God and even use Jesus as a guide, but do not follow the Christian dogma. To assume that you enrich someone's life is to assume that their lives are not already enriched. Who are you to assume that others cannot know love and God differently than you? Or even more profoundly than you?
Well Greg, you have set up your own standards for what is fair and unfair and you hold on to them absolutely. Now, Christians believe in God's standards of fair and unfair and hold on to them absolutely. To you and even me, they might seem mysterious, at this point in time. Here's another absolute truth Christians believe - Everyone will be judged by God. I think that makes a good case to suscribe to His 'get out' clause - Jesus. That is pretty straightforward thinking.
My only point is that I came to this 'scientific' forum intentionally to debate what has been a contradiction within the story of Christianity for me. So to drop statements like “One thing is sure - God is just and whatever happens - It will be fair.” Is to assume that I already believe in your judging God. To say “one thing is sure” is meaningless in light of the fact that I am questioning the very thing you claim to be so sure of. That was my only point with this.
Here's another absolute truth Christians believe - Everyone will be judged by God. I think that makes a good case to suscribe to His 'get out' clause - Jesus. That is pretty straightforward thinking.
Yes, I understand that Christians feel their God judges all people. And I agree that to “subscribe to His get out clause” would be an easy way out of the very Hell Christianity presents. But the enlightened path is not always an easy one. Just Look at Jesus, he was clearly very enlightened and we KILLED him!
It sounds like you subscribe to Christianity to “get out” of something? Do you bow to the your God out of Fear of something? Eternal damnation perhaps? Or out of LOVE, as I do.
Your scenario with the tribesmen is imaginary. I would ask if you have actually interviewed any yourself or done some research to come up with the conclusions you have? I have heard from a missionary who preaches Jesus to a tribe in western India (The Bhils). She said that they have an awareness of (Christian) God. They spend their lives in fear and confusion. They constantly interact with spirits to appease them. They hear voices. (Their religion has been termed animist). When they find that Jesus is the only way to escape the anger of God, they receive Him with happiness.
No, I have no personal experience with tribesman. Good point. I'll do some research and get back to you. The fact that your friend claims that people already know a Christian God before it was ever even exposed to them sounds a bit outrageous. If you claim that there are similarities, then I would agree, just as there are many similarities between Christianity and the Pagan religions which came before it, including the Virgin birth and Resurrection. Regarding the “animist” religion that your friend encountered, yes that seems like a pretty scary existence. But what of the Buddhists who existed long before Christ. They do not live in this fear-based state, yet Christians feel obligated to change them and “show them the way”?
The issue is - How will you respond to the message of Jesus?
A good question. In fact it is through forums like this that I am able to come to answer that question. At this point, I am a believer in the basic message of Jesus: that God is LOVE. However I do NOT subscribe to the idea that God is FEAR found in other parts of the Bible. And on the rare occasion that Jesus does claim that God is FEAR I have no problem letting it go. I have no need to embrace it if it is not my highest Truth.
I give thanks to God for the opportunity to debate with you all. I think God, Jesus, Buddha, my Great-grandmother, etc all celebrate this interaction. For it is this sort of discourse that gives our theologies meaning. Without it, we are not exercising our God given gift of Free Will. To not truly question on the deepest level is to not choose. And to not have a choice in a given thing renders it meaningless.
So to answer your question “How do I respond to the message of Jesus?” I embrace it. The message of Jesus is one of Love (mostly). Basically I think he rocks! BUT I do not embrace the fear-based conception of a Judging God that sends us to Hell. Being that I already experience a Loving God, then the only thing Christianity presents me with is Fear. Put another way, since I already know Heaven then all Christianity brings to the party is Hell.
This may be hard for you to imagine, since you only know a Judging God. But Hell does not exist for me. I believe there are many ways to know God and that he saves every person. And if you think God sends me to Hell for that, then I guess He would be sending me to Hell for assuming he was more Graceful and Loving than He really is.
Respectfully
greg