Evidence for God from Science

Have Charismatic gifts ceased? I have personally witnessed healings, prophecies, words of knowledge etc. I've also seen the 'Toronto Blessing' phenomenon in churches, although that seems to have a demonic element to it.

OK, here's the question - Jesus said that the Holy Spirit is available to those who go on asking. In a pentecostal church, how come some people never experience tongues (or other 1 Cor 12 gifts) even though they clearly believe in it and ask for it?

Should have a "maybe" option. I often have words I can't for the life of me understand in my mind. Not that they're much use though. And I'm pretty sure the ammount of faith one would need would go even past that of a normal priest. I suspect you would actually need to become a monk or a hermit and devote your life to Christ and Christ alone if you want to benefit from higher gifts.

i have asked for many things i have never gotten. maybe God knows these people don't need these gifts. he chooses what gifts people will have. he knows best.

What would be the point of having tongues anyway?

Tongues serve two purposes:

1) They are a sign to unbelievers who speak a language you do not speak, when you speak spontaneously in that language. I knew a person who spoke Christian messages in Russian to Russians once without having learned the language.
2) They enhance our worship when we run out of words (My church always insists on an interpretation and they are beautifully poetic).

I was just wondering if there are any qualification criteria for receiving a gift such as this? (from scripture or experience). For example, people tell me that tongues follow music and singing. (Just taking tongues as an example because its an easily recognisable sign of HS Baptism).

RGeeB wrote:Have Charismatic gifts ceased? I have personally witnessed healings, prophecies, words of knowledge etc. I've also seen the 'Toronto Blessing' phenomenon in churches, although that seems to have a demonic element to it.

OK, here's the question - Jesus said that the Holy Spirit is available to those who go on asking. In a Pentecostal church, how come some people never experience tongues (or other 1 Cor 12 gifts) even though they clearly believe in it and ask for it?

I go to a Pentecostal church, and know of many in Australia and charismatic gifts have not ceased

As to your main question, I don't believe anyone can give an accurate answer to that. While I believe that speaking in tongues is the evident sign that a believer is filled with the Holy Ghost 1 Cor 12 also states, "6There are different ways God works in our lives, but it is the same God who does the work through all of us. 7A spiritual gift is given to each of us as a means of helping the entire church. ... 1It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have."

My answer would have to be that we cannot know the reasons why some speak in tongues will others do not. But we can know the fact that it is the Holy Spirit who decides which gift each person should have and "There are different ways God works in our lives, but it is the same God who does the work through all of us"

vvart wrote:What would be the point of having tongues anyway?

Tongues are a sign that a believer is filled with the Holy Spirit. Tongues are pretty much the language of the Holy Spirit and speaking in it often is another way of connecting with God. It also helps to build our faith.

Mastermind wrote: And I'm pretty sure the amount of faith one would need would go even past that of a normal priest. I suspect you would actually need to become a monk or a hermit and devote your life to Christ and Christ alone if you want to benefit from higher gifts.

The Bible says that these gifts are available to all believers. With the monk hermit remark, I assume you mean we must isolate our selves to draw on God. But what is the point of that? Did not Jesus come to speak the gospel to all men? What good do gifts become if we don't use them to help build the Church? I devote my life to Christ and Christ alone yet I am no priest or pastor in a Church. Any believer weather they be a pastor or just a church member should be like this. With a life total devoted to Christ. Does not Romans 12:1 say: "And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice--the kind he will accept. When you think of what he has done for you, is this too much to ask? "

If we think of what our God did for us, doesn't that make you want to live a life totally devoted to Him? You don't have to isolate yourself, but live it in your everyday life.
[/b]

I have to fully agree with these words already expressed in this forum:

"Tongues are a sign that a believer is filled with the Holy Spirit. Tongues are pretty much the language of the Holy Spirit and speaking in it often is another way of connecting with God. It also helps to build our faith."

It is quite wrong to say that any born-again believer does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them but the Baptism of the Holy Spirit brings a different sort of anointing that brings power and refreshing into our prayer lives and is the "battery" from which other supernatural gifts of the Spirit can flow. It doesn't however make anyone 'holier than thou' and it doesn't prevent the possessor of theological error. Pentecostals/Charismatics can be just as oddball as anyone else. HOWEVER it is my opinion that God has less difficulty cooling down a fanatic than heating up a corpse. Where the Holy Spirit flows, let's flow with Him. Dale Tooley

Check the fruit.

Does speaking in tounges make you hate God? Does it bring apathy to your Christian walk? Does it create a sense of fear and doubt?

If so, then I'd recommend stopping. You can see that the fruit is not good so it is not from God (a good tree cannot bear bad fruit). This same deep, scientific principle works on all levels of the faith.

If speaking in tounges produces a love for God. It makes you want to know Him more and server Him in a greater capacity. If it causes your live to throb with a heart for Jesus then you're on the right track. You're speaking in the tongues of men and angels as the apostle Paul said.

I have a friend who was overseas in Africa in a congregation. He was the only solid english speaking person there. A little boy around 9yrs old came up to the front of the congregation and spoke in perfect, unbroken english. Being the only real english speaking person there, my friend went to the front and interpreted it to the group. The people praised and glorified God. Good fruit...

First, forgive me. this is probably done with, yet the LORD has spoken to me on this subject for many months, and He gave me an explanation to this question last night and this morning. so, here it is.

I myself speak in tongues and also have many other gifts from the LORD. on the question if they are still in opperation today. ABSOLUTELY. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (NKJV) and if Jesus and the Father are one (i cant find verse, sorry) and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. this proves the Trinity or more accurate the Triunity or Godhead. this in turn says that the Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today and forever. and if this is true then the gifts which he gives are all the same. now the reason why we dont see them is usually because we have been blinded, (we as in the Church). but again all gifts are there for the taking so to speak.

i hope this helps anyone...and again forgive me of my bad timing. just got computer 2 days ago.

As a former Charismatic who has become Reformed, I have a few questions for my "tongues speaking" and "prophecying" brothers.

1.) What ever happened to the "gift of tongues" involving earthly languages (See Acts 2:5-6)? The same is true with the Gentiles in Acts 10:45-47, as Peter said that they “received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” This seems to be strangely lacking in the modern version of the gift, which made its first appearance in the early 1900's. Based on that, we would have to conclude that the modern gift, if anything, is not the same as the biblical gift, but something altogether different.

2. What is the modern "gift of prophecy"? It can't be special revelation from God Himself because that revelation ceased (Rev. 22:18). The Bible is the complete word of God. It is fully sufficient and is the “whole council of God”. There has been nothing held back that was profitable. It is not to be added to in any way, shape or form. A Prophet, by definition, must speak authoritative, inerrant, infallible words of the Living God, words that are equal in authority to the Bible itself. I have met many who claimed to have the “gift of prophecy” in my charismatic years. Trust me, they didn't have it. Their “prophecies” are either vague and meaningless, or they are riddled with errors. The biggest problem. of course, would be to determine what is "The Word of God". If we still have prophets, then we don't have the complete Word of God available in the Scriptures.

3.) How did the church manage to survive for nearly 2,000 years without these gifts? Either the modern charismatics are in error, or every church father from the second century to the 19th are in error. I have to go with the first choice.

I would highly recommend The Final Word by O. Palmer Robertson

Thomas Watson's little effort to deny the gift of tongues and of prophecy has the speed wobbles! Steady up Tom! Your effort shows more than a little desperation. 2000 years without these gifts? Get away. Those gifts have been manifested with all sorts of groups who were experiencing revival. There were very special features that accompanied the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Tongues of fire that sat on each of those there and the tongues that were heard in one's own language. There is no evidence anywhere in scripture that these manifestations were repeated. Spoken Tongues (or languages)intiated by the Holy Spirit and known only to God , and prophecy, certainly were. Fortunately 1 Corinthians tells us about the operations of the (supernatural) gifts as well as the ministry gifts and warns of the danger of misuse. Nowhere is scripture were they withdrawn and the huge missionary outreaches today, with crowds sometimes numbering the millions, would be impossible without them. I can agree only that often what passes for prophecy isn't and that is why we are told " and let the others judge". Yes, many Charismatics need this caution . It should never be used for guidance and should only be a confirmation of what has already been settled in the heart by the Holy Spirit. It is a pity that so many of the early reform movements are stuck in a time warp. They have much to offer but need to move on.

Dale Tooley wrote:Those gifts have been manifested with all sorts of groups who were experiencing revival.

I wish to challenge this. Name one of these groups between 100 AD and 1900 AD.

Dale,

Your statement below outlines one of the biggest issues that I have with the modern "prophetic" movement.

Dale Tooley wrote:It (the gift of prophecy) should never be used for guidance and should only be a confirmation of what has already been settled in the heart by the Holy Spirit.

Can you find one example of a prophecy in the Bible that wasn't to be used for guidance. Believers in Bible times were required to obey true prophets just as if the words they spoke came right out of the mouth of God (they did). Consider Deuteronomy 18:18-19,

"I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him."

Jesus told us that we are to live "by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4). This is what God expects of His Prophets, yet you admittedly expect far less. Again, we see that what we have today differs greatly from the Biblical version. Again. I am just not clear on the role of the "prophet" in charismatic churches. If prophecy today "should never be used for guidance and should only be a confirmation of what has already been settled in the heart by the Holy Spirit", then why prophesy to begin with?

Just one group? Surely that wont do Tom. How about just a few for the last part of the 19th century. How about these :

1851 : Dorothea Trudel healed several colleagues of hers in Mannedorf, Switzerland, by way of prayer and anointment with oil. She went on to found several faith-healing centers ('faith homes'), using the same methods plus close attention to living a Christian way of life. Her main associate was Samuel Zeller.

1856 : William Arthur publishes *The Tongue Of Fire*, a Holiness book which signaled the start of a shift among some Holiness people in a direction which would lead to Pentecostalism. His prayer at the end of the book asks God to send the greatest demonstration of the Spirit's power ever. Dale Tooley

1860s : Phoebe Palmer (1807-1874), a Holiness speaker and publisher, wrote mission letters (in her popular magazine *Guide To Holiness*) that spoke in terms of a new Pentecost and the Spirit at work in her era. Palmer is responsible for much of the theology and language that became the common marks of Holiness and Pentecostal churches, especially about the Holy Spirit's work in sanctification, mission, and prayer. A case in point is when she changed the magazine's name from 'Guide to Christian Perfection' to 'Guide To Holiness'. Another example is in her 1854 book *Faith and Its Effects*, where she spoke of our being able to 'claim' health and salvation for ourselves. Her books were widely ridiculed by church leaders and mostly ignored and dismissed by mainstream theologians, but the books had a powerful impact on the next generation of Christian leaders. By the 1880s, after her death but following where she was heading, the magazine was describing revival activities as being 'pentecostal'. She also left her mark through her imagery of Christ as the altar, her activity in support of women's roles in ministry, her magazine's reporting on far-flung revival news, and her Five Points Missions in impoverished city neighborhoods.

1862 : Charles Cullis came to a Phoebe Palmer 'Tuesday Meeting' in New York in major personal distress, and came to the faith there. Cullis became determined to take the gospel (and the Holiness message on perfection) to the poor and ill. He founded orphanages, schools, and health institutions. In 1869, after reading about Dorothea Trudel's work, faith healing became a full part of his approach. Cullis worked hard to lead Holiness leaders to accept this merging of the two streams. He did this so well that later, when Holiness gave birth to Pentecostalism and Pentecostalism gave birth to the Charismatic Movement, faith healing was seen as a natural part of the new developments. Cullis' gospel events in the rest of the 19th Century created a platform for his combination of Holiness doctrine and faith healing, and the general public and press looked on with wonder and puzzlement.

1867 : Otto Stockmayer was healed by Samuel Zeller in the Mannedorf manner. Soon, Stockmayer would be opening his own faith-healing home in Switzerland. Stockmayer was more keen on spreading the word about faith healing than Blumhardt, Trudel or Zeller. He wrote a popular book on it, and spoke at many religious gatherings all over Western Europe, including several of Britain's Keswick Conventions (see below).

1870 : Asa Mahan, a leader and teacher at Oberlin, publishes *Baptism Of the Holy Ghost*. Mahan was a leading architect of Oberlin's perfectionist approach to holiness, focusing on Christ's role in it. But he began to shift toward a view in which the Holy Spirit accomplished not only salvation, but holiness or completeness (sanctification) in the initiating event, termed 'baptism of the Holy Ghost'. His book marked the shift and shaped one of Pentecostalism's key doctrines.

1870s : the Keswick Conventions. Keswick became Britain's annual hub for Holiness teachings of a mostly non-Wesleyan kind. At Keswick, they spoke of being given victorious power by the Spirit over inward sin, where a Wesleyan might talk of Christ's gradual 'eradicating' it (removing it, root and all). Keswick viewed baptism as an anointing more than a cleansing. Any later spiritual experience made for perfection (or at least, near-perfection) of what one does and how one lives. US teachers had an influence on Keswick (especially Robert and Hannah Smith), and Keswick had influence in the US, especially in R.A. Torrey, the Christian and Missionary Alliance (C&MA) churches, and at the Moody Institute; also later in Foursquare, Open Bible, and Gospel Lighthouse churches. Keswick's influence is still felt today on the British charismatic scene.

1871 : While Chicago burned, Dwight Moody was burning, too, with a very different flame. His successful church was burned in the great fire, but right at that time he underwent a shakedown experience from praying with two of his female parishioners who said that he was lacking the power of the Spirit. He went on to be a major US revivalist preacher. He emphasized many of the same things Holiness and Pentecostal believers did, but in a different way.

1870s : Elena Guerra (1835-1914), a Catholic educator of young women, popularized a discipline practice called 'the New Cenacle' (= 'upper room') throughout Mediterranean Catholicism. In it, the 10 days between Ascension and Pentecost are spent in prayer, meditation and devotion, to prepare for the coming of the gifts of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, just as Christ's followers did in their upper room after He ascended. She had a broad view of what those gifts were, and held that the Spirit had great gifts for the common believers of her day. She even received the attention and support of Pope Leo XIII for her activities. She believed very strongly that the Church was paying far too little attention to the Spirit. Her work made for a greater public awareness of the Holy Spirit, especially among those who were likely to emigrate to the US.

Also somewhere in this time was William Doughty's ministry in New England, which may have included some form of tongues-speaking (most likely in the early 1870s), and certainly shaking, fainting, dancing, and the like. His following would later hook up with what was developing in the South.

A key figure for the Holiness movement among African-Americans at this time was Amanda Berry Smith (1837-1915). She preached in the US, England and Africa, spreading a Palmer-flavored Methodism. She also wrote a moving autobiography.

1880s and 1890s : There were scattered rumors of xenoglossia (the speaking of known languages that are unknown to the speaker) at various revival meetings in the Southern US, and one or two incidents which may even have crossed into glossolalia (ecstatic speech). It seems as if noone knew what to make of them, and the incidents remained scattered, going no further. And when it happened, it involved some very shady characters, thus discrediting it in the eyes of most believing Christians. Yet, there were several Holiness leaders who had openly expected such speech as a 'sign from God' that full-scale revival was about to sweep the land, wondering aloud why people were not speaking in unhindered tongues as they did in the days of the early church. Also, there was an explosion of books about the Holy Spirit. Most of these books were very poorly thought out and are best forgotten, but nearly all of them talked the kind of talk we would think of today as being Pentecostal.

At about this time, many Holiness congregations had reached a point of crisis with the larger church bodies which bore them. (Or, perhaps, bored them...). Hence the formation of the Fire-Baptized Holiness Church, and also what was later known as the Churches of God (Cleveland TN). Some parishes left Black Baptist bodies to form new Holiness churches. The Methodists had the worst of the splits. Methodism was the mother of the Holiness movement. But Holiness' nitpicky emphasis on behavioral rules and its authoritarian leanings were too much for most Methodists, and Methodism's loss of gospel focus and growing acceptance of worldliness were too much for Holiness followers. (There were very many who felt both were right about each other, but of course they had nowhere to go.) Holiness had come to accept the theology of a 'second blessing' separate from salvation and water baptism, and Methodism had come to reject it. In the largest split, tens of thousands left the Methodist Church to form the Church of the Nazarene. The most telling name for one of these Holiness splinters from Methodism was that of Ambrose Crumpler's Pentecostal Holiness Church.

1895 : Benjamin Irwin, a former lawyer and Baptist convert to Holiness theology, had an experience of the "Baptism of Fire". He then formed the Fire-Baptized Holiness Church. From that experience, he fashioned a system of spiritual baptisms, each of which he gave names (like, 'lyddite'). He also created the idea of a 'third blessing' after separate blessings of salvation and sanctification. His life spun out of control from that time on, and in 1900 Irwin had to publicly confess his sins and step aside from church leadership.

Carrie Montgomery (1848-1946) opened a US healing-house in Buffalo NY, then later mover to Oakland CA and opened one there (the 'Home of Peace'). She became one of the best-known healers of her time. She had close ties with A.B. Simpson of the C&MA, but was later involved in the Assemblies of God from its start.

Somewhere in this time, Maria Woodworth-Etter started having her own tent revival meetings in Illinois, claiming that people spoke in known tongues and were healed. It's said that she was not known for being gracious, nor for being considerate of her host churches' values and beliefs.

1899 : The century mark brought considerable speculation about the end of time. Secular culture as well as holiness Christians were a-buzz with talk of living in the final era. Holiness preachers most especially linked the reappearance of manifestations (like those we now call 'slain in the Spirit') with Christ's arrival within their lifetimes. This would set the stage for describing the Azusa revival as the start of the 'Latter Rain', the big burst of gifts, wonders and signs of power that was said would be unleashed onto the believers to prepare the way for Jesus' return.

As a former Charismatic who has become Reformed, I have a few questions for my "tongues speaking" and "prophecying" brothers.

1.) What ever happened to the "gift of tongues" involving earthly languages (See Acts 2:5-6)? The same is true with the Gentiles in Acts 10:45-47, as Peter said that they “received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” This seems to be strangely lacking in the modern version of the gift, which made its first appearance in the early 1900's. Based on that, we would have to conclude that the modern gift, if anything, is not the same as the biblical gift, but something altogether different.

2. What is the modern "gift of prophecy"? It can't be special revelation from God Himself because that revelation ceased (Rev. 22:18). The Bible is the complete word of God. It is fully sufficient and is the “whole council of God”. There has been nothing held back that was profitable. It is not to be added to in any way, shape or form. A Prophet, by definition, must speak authoritative, inerrant, infallible words of the Living God, words that are equal in authority to the Bible itself. I have met many who claimed to have the “gift of prophecy” in my charismatic years. Trust me, they didn't have it. Their “prophecies” are either vague and meaningless, or they are riddled with errors. The biggest problem. of course, would be to determine what is "The Word of God". If we still have prophets, then we don't have the complete Word of God available in the Scriptures.

okay first of all i would like to point out that Jesus Himself stated that He and the Father are one. (dont know scripture sorry) and if that is ture and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father then that proves the trinity. and if the trinity is true then look at Hebrews 13:8 says "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (NKJV) this means that the Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today and forever. this meaning that the gifts that are given by the Holy Spirit have always been the same. Tongues have been the same, prophesy is the same.

i dont denie that there are false prophets, usually self proclaimed ones, however you cannot denie that there are still Prophets of God walking the earth. and to also clarify a Prophet is one who holds the office of Prophet, the gift of Prophecy does not make one a prophet...look at (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -5354.html)
to get a little better idea of what they are.
Prophets are ones who speak under the anointing and inspiration of the Holy Spirit...and you are right the Word of God is complete but Prophecy now-a-days does not support scripture, scripture supports Prophecy and if scripture does not support it the throw it away. and on your comment of Rev. 22:18 i would like to clarify again that Prophecy is in no way to add to the Word of God and that it is supported by scripture not the other way around.

and please for give me i dont know the answer to the third question.