Evidence for God from Science

omimanordude wrote:I have been wondering this for the longest time.
Tell me how a loving God of the Bible can allow the damnation of entire races to Hell just because they were not Jewish. I don't think God is racist, but apparently He is happy with just a handful of people going to Heaven while those around them got scourged by Israel and went to Hell. Is it the Gentiles' fault for having parents that worshiped pagan gods and idols and all that? If God loves His creation, why would He only make a covenant with a few people and allow the rest to burn for an eternity? I know that He came as Jesus, but before that, it must have been hundreds if not thousands of years, right? So all those Gentiles went to Hell? Someone please answer this, I really need to have this settled.

omimanordude wrote:I have been wondering this for the longest time.
Tell me how a loving God of the Bible can allow the damnation of entire races to Hell just because they were not Jewish. I don't think God is racist, but apparently He is happy with just a handful of people going to Heaven while those around them got scourged by Israel and went to Hell. Is it the Gentiles' fault for having parents that worshiped pagan gods and idols and all that? If God loves His creation, why would He only make a covenant with a few people and allow the rest to burn for an eternity? I know that He came as Jesus, but before that, it must have been hundreds if not thousands of years, right? So all those Gentiles went to Hell? Someone please answer this, I really need to have this settled.

Ancient Christianity?

The Khoi-San people of Southern Africa are one of the oldest groups of people on earth. Genetic analysis shows that they have been seperate as a lineage for about 100,000 years, and this is confirmed by comparing their bone structure to ancient Sangoan skeletal remains. They were and are still hunter-gatherers, with little contact with Westerners until about 250 years ago. They are gentle people, who thrive on family and nature.

Missionaries were amazed by how quickly and easily the Khoi people embraced Christianity. It is, however, fascinating and understandable when one investigates the eery similarities between the religion of this ancient people, and Christianity.

Romans 1 says:
"Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

Please bear that in mind as you read further, especially verse 19.

One of the pillars of the Khoi religion, unchanged through centuries, and present prior to the arrival of missionaries, is the belief in a God. This God is the creator, protector of those who believe in Him and giver of all things good. They call him Tsui//Goab (The two slashes are meant to depict the tongue-clicking of their language). From Him comes life, rain, food and all life. He also gives the ability to live with each other on earth, and with nature, which we share with each other and care for.

Those who die are entrusted to Him, and they continue to live with Him.

Where does evil come from? It comes from //Gauab. He is the enemy of Tsui//Goab and the people. He is the destroyer, the sender of storms and tornadoes, drought and famine, diseases and the evil we do to each other. From him comes pain, disappointment and a ruthless exploitation of our human weaknesses. In the Khoi language, all words describing evil are derivatives of //Gauab.

//Gauab and Tsui//Goab are in a fierce war with each other. It is a fierce war, because it is for Tsui//Goab's creation and His people, and that which makes them conscious humans, i.e. their very souls. The Khoi describes it as the human part of humans, or man with man (khoi-khoi).

Tsui//Goab (God) eventually won this war after a long time. He dealt //Gauab a mortal blow, but he is taking a long time to die. While he is dying, he is doing some damage. This is similar to Revelations, where the dragon, after being defeated, still knocks one-third of stars from the sky with his tail while falling. Final victory is still to come.

The Khoi believes something even more astonishing, that God, during the battle, was wounded on the knee. Tsui//Goab literally means wounded knee. That may sound a bit funny to Christians, and even blasphemous, but listen to the further explanation. It means that the battle against the evil one still continues, one sees this in the evil things that people do, and the bad things that happen. The mortally wounded evil one still wants to attack the wounded Tsui//Goab.

The Khoi also says because Tsui//Goab is wounded, He can understand and account for the weakness of humans. He knows we all limp with wounded knees. We must struggle daily overcome our weaknesses and temptations that threaten to overcome us. But the battle has been fought, and Tsui//Goab has overcome, and we are waiting for the day where we will all see victory with Him.

So why do the Khoi-San people accept the Christian religion so readily? It's not because of a cripple God, but a wounded Jesus. Because after His resurrection Christ is the victor over evil and death, His victory over the evil one is certain. He was victorious over the powers of death, and put them to shame.

Even after His resurrection, Thomas could feel and see His wounds. Jesus understands if we limp too, because He is still carrying His own wounds from the evil that we face every day. Therefore Jesus fights so hard with us against evil, and cries bitterly with us in our sorrows.

We can trust Him like no other.

Will it help us, the postmodern crowd, who oscillate between our external arrogance and internal death-angst, our doubts and longings, to believe? Those among us who mockingly deny the existence of evil, while we witness it striking all around us? We modern humans, who so easily exchange our trust for pride, and make our unbelief a virtue?

Maybe this ancient religion helps us find God, helps us seek out the wounded one.

Because God understands.

Our God has a wounded knee.

omimanordude wrote:I have been wondering this for the longest time.
Tell me how a loving God of the Bible can allow the damnation of entire races to Hell just because they were not Jewish. I don't think God is racist, but apparently He is happy with just a handful of people going to Heaven while those around them got scourged by Israel and went to Hell. Is it the Gentiles' fault for having parents that worshiped pagan gods and idols and all that? If God loves His creation, why would He only make a covenant with a few people and allow the rest to burn for an eternity? I know that He came as Jesus, but before that, it must have been hundreds if not thousands of years, right? So all those Gentiles went to Hell? Someone please answer this, I really need to have this settled.

omimanordude wrote:Thanks you guys, really appreciate it :o
There is still the issue regarding the people of Ninevah; when they "repented" and later perished, where they in Heaven or Hell afterwards?

omimanordude wrote:
What I really want to know is that even though as a righteous judge GOD will JUDGE us according to our works, I am not sure what this means; I know that salvation cannot be earned, but what of the meaning of JUDGING us for our works, but for eternity it only matters whether or not we accept Christ. I am not encouraging this, but say that a christian is saved and lives a most sinful life. Though he is ensured salvation, let's say his brother is not saved, but lived his life the best he knows how, and didn't become a christian because he saw how wicked his brother was. Though GOD is just, He will give the wicked one eternal life, while the unsaved one will go to Hell even though GOD rightly JUDGES him. I am not sure I fully comprehend this; maybe that not all will suffer in Hell at the same magnitude?

omimanordude wrote:What of the Jews in the OT? They never met Jesus, and that Jews lived and died before He came. How did they receive salvation?

omimanordude wrote:The article by Glenn Miller that Turgonian posted said that there will be people of many nations in Heaven. Of course the Gospel will be preached, but the verse he refers to make no differeniation whether or not the people will be from the OT or the New. I am not just talking about the small handful of Gentiles, like Job or Ruth; I mean, will there be MULTITUDES of people that we will see in Heaven that died before Jesus Christ came?

omimanordude wrote:Thanks you guys, really appreciate it
There is still the issue regarding the people of Ninevah; when they "repented" and later perished, where they in Heaven or Hell afterwards?

What I really want to know is that even though as a righteous judge GOD will JUDGE us according to our works, I am not sure what this means; I know that salvation cannot be earned, but what of the meaning of JUDGING us for our works, but for eternity it only matters whether or not we accept Christ. I am not encouraging this, but say that a christian is saved and lives a most sinful life. Though he is ensured salvation, let's say his brother is not saved, but lived his life the best he knows how, and didn't become a christian because he saw how wicked his brother was. Though GOD is just, He will give the wicked one eternal life, while the unsaved one will go to Hell even though GOD rightly JUDGES him. I am not sure I fully comprehend this; maybe that not all will suffer in Hell at the same magnitude?

What of the Jews in the OT? They never met Jesus, and that Jews lived and died before He came. How did they receive salvation?

The article by Glenn Miller that Turgonian posted said that there will be people of many nations in Heaven. Of course the Gospel will be preached, but the verse he refers to make no differeniation whether or not the people will be from the OT or the New. I am not just talking about the small handful of Gentiles, like Job or Ruth; I mean, will there be MULTITUDES of people that we will see in Heaven that died before Jesus Christ came?

Thank you guys, once again, I really appreciate your answers.

omimanordude wrote:Thanks you guys, really appreciate it
There is still the issue regarding the people of Ninevah; when they "repented" and later perished, where they in Heaven or Hell afterwards?

What I really want to know is that even though as a righteous judge GOD will JUDGE us according to our works, I am not sure what this means; I know that salvation cannot be earned, but what of the meaning of JUDGING us for our works, but for eternity it only matters whether or not we accept Christ. I am not encouraging this, but say that a christian is saved and lives a most sinful life. Though he is ensured salvation, let's say his brother is not saved, but lived his life the best he knows how, and didn't become a christian because he saw how wicked his brother was. Though GOD is just, He will give the wicked one eternal life, while the unsaved one will go to Hell even though GOD rightly JUDGES him. I am not sure I fully comprehend this; maybe that not all will suffer in Hell at the same magnitude?

What of the Jews in the OT? They never met Jesus, and that Jews lived and died before He came. How did they receive salvation?

The article by Glenn Miller that Turgonian posted said that there will be people of many nations in Heaven. Of course the Gospel will be preached, but the verse he refers to make no differeniation whether or not the people will be from the OT or the New. I am not just talking about the small handful of Gentiles, like Job or Ruth; I mean, will there be MULTITUDES of people that we will see in Heaven that died before Jesus Christ came?

Thank you guys, once again, I really appreciate your answers.

omimanordude wrote:Thanks guys, you all have been most helpful just one last question though.
In the times around lot and job and adam and noah, that is, before God establishes His covenant with the Jews, how did one get to heaven? I know that Enoch went with the Lord and that Job was not a Jew, but still, I am not sure on just how these people came to know of assurance of eternal life. All responses appreciated.

Chad V. wrote:Turgonian, what you are saying is not the Gospel and it is not Calvanistic. You said in your earlier post that you were a Calvanist. Calvanism is much more that the T.U.L.I.P. acrostic. But that aside, Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is NO OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we MUST be saved". It seems to me that your understanding of covenant theology is either non-existant or you simply misunderstand how old testament saints were saved. To say that men can be saved apart from the revelation of Jesus Christ and him crucified for our atonement is rank heresey. Christians preach the person and the work of Christ. Apart from that there is no gospel. Anything else is a lie and a sham meant to lead people away from Christ. Please reconsider your position. The Jehova's Witnesses have a very Christian sounding message on the surface but it is not Christianity. It is the "doctrine of demons".

Again, where the person and work of Christ is not preached there is no gospel. And where there is no gospel there is no salvation.

pamskee wrote:Turgonian---- I did check out some of the site you referenced and also some of the site's references (note: I referred them here -- Turgy). I saw the same emphasis on "fairness" that Jim saw. I also saw a preference for philosophies and discussions of historical disputes/studies. Over the centuries, people have claimed to have proof that the Bible is in error. As new discoveries were made, their 'proofs' were disproved. Attempts to discredit or re-invent scripture have been with us since our beginning. (Gen 3:1) Paul warns us not to be cheated thru philosophy (Col 2:8)and mentions Laodicea as one of the churches about which he is concerned. The Lord Jesus was not pleased with the Laodicean church.(Rev 3:14-22)He warns them to repent of their self-satisfied ways, go to His inspired writings (he Bible), and ask Him for wisdom and spiritual knowledge.

As others have mentioned, your comments show confusion between the old and new testament. It appears that "gospel", to you, refers to the fullness of revelation in the New testament. As others have mentioned, the Good News of redemption thru the Messiah (Christ)is proclaimed from Genesis to Revelation.

The idea that people who haven't heard the Gospel proclaimed have some excuse is in disagreement with what Paul is inspired to write in Rom 1:18-23. Natural revelation is enough to remove all excuse and cause people to supress the truth in unrighteousness. Notice that it doesn't say that some saw evidence of God and sought Him.

"Election is the answer to, "How could even one Gentile be saved?"" Don't forget that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. He preached the gospel to them. He taught them God's word, just as he taught the Jews before he went to the Gentiles. Also, election applies to everyone who is saved whether Gentile or Jew.

God is not 'anti-intellectual'. He gives us our intellect and the Holy Spirit enlightens it so we can understand the message of God's Word. Without the work of God, our minds are in darkness. We are wise in our own eyes. We are foolish. We are blind. I would encourage you to let the folks who think of themselves as "intellectuals" stumble around without you. There are faithful men whom God has used to expound His Word. They trust the truth of the Bible and can be of great help to us. Some of them comment or are referenced on this site. Jim's current topic about God's "fairness" should also give you some things to think about.

Pastor Jody wrote:Turgonian,
Are you saying that two covenants exist? If God still deals with non-evangelized people in an OT way, then our argument still stands. Because the true OT way leads to Christ and his sacrifice. In the OT, all non-Jews could become Jews by converting and observing the Law. Once they did, they were expected to follow the Law in order to be "righteous". They would soon find that this was impossible and would begin to look forward to the Messiah for their salvation and true redemption.

If God is truly sovereign and election is true, then God would be able to make any of the elects' paths lead them to the Gospel, pre-calvary or post. Look at the complicated path that Joseph (OT) followed. Why? to preserve the lineage of the Messiah to come. God sent him to a foreign country and made a slave rise to second in command of all of Egypt just to do his will. How hard would it be for God to lead the elect, no matter where they live, to repentance?

Also, if the elect were elected before the foundation of the earth, and God measures out all our days even before the first one is lived, then wouldn't it make sense that God wouldn't "misplace" any of the elect? He would either place them in a place to hear the gospel or make sure someone is sent to them to preach it.

Chad V. wrote:Turgonian, I never said perfect knowlege, and now you've jumped catagories tot eh doctrine of elect infants(of such a doctrine I know of no theologan who is dogmatic on the issue, there is just not that much info in scripture). Also David had a better grip on the savior than do most christians, read for example Psalm 2, Psalm 22 here David prophesys the crucifixion. By the way, ovelookin there ignorance is not giving them a free pass, it's leaving them in darkeness. Read Romans 1-5 carefully. Your theory of how that the full revelation is given but God saves some without the knowlege of Christ specifically has no traction whatsover in the New Tesament. In the old there is no eveidence of anyone saved apart from Knowlege of YHWH. If Christ is God and YHWH id God and there is only one God then what does that tell you? That OT saints were saved by Christ. You seem to be subscribing to some sublte form of pantheism. By your logic the best way to get un reached people groups saved is to tell them to maintain thier current religous system and not run to Christ for salvation at all.

Tsui//Goab is not Christ and the description of the theology you gave earlier is so far from the truth of scripture that it is no bettter that any other pagan religion. Here you have Tsui//Goab helping people over come weaknesses and temptations, you have no atonement for sin whatsoever. Christ satisfied God's justice and imputes righteousness to those who believe. He atoned for sin on behalf of sinners. Tsui//Goab is no better that Baal and your suggestion that he is enough like Christ to make some who may believe in Tsui//Goab saved is open blasphemy. Be very careful how you treat the person and work of Christ. If you think me too harsh give me one, just one N.T. example of anyone being saved apart from specific knowlege of Christ, or one didactic portion of scripture to support your view. Your reasoning means nothing when the whole of scripture stands against you.

Turg, I don't mean to accuse you of deliberate blasphemy, I truly donot think that is your intention but I also beleive that we, myself included tend to bandy about ideas that hold no scriptural traction too easily. It's something that these days I am very careful about. I learned at one point that many of my attitudes and musings were actually a violation of the 3rd commandment and that I needed to be more careful there.

If I have offended you then you have my apology. I believe that you are trying to participate in constructive dialogue in order to come to deeper understanding of the truth. My points of argument I stand by but I ask that you forgive my tone.

...I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the hame Ashlan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted...

Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.