Does our faith mean "self sacrifice"?

[Ashley]

I have often been told that a Christian is someone who self-sacrifices himself here and there.

To the best of my knowledge, our faith is to confess that we are sinners, repent and follow him; it's true Christians take care of neighbors not for their own benefits but for the neighbors' benefits; thinking much about it in details, it doesn't seem to equal self-sacrificing; at least we won't benefit people on purpose at the expenses of, or exploiting, ourselves. That is sort of insane.

I am quite perplexed about this. It occurs to me that self-sacrifice is not an appropriate term or notion in the religious foundation

grateful if anyone may help; I wish I could explain to people more succinctly and vividly about our faith.

[FFC]

I have often been told that a Christian is someone who self-sacrifices himself here and there.

To the best of my knowledge, our faith is to confess that we are sinners, repent and follow him; it's true Christians take care of neighbors not for their own benefits but for the neighbors' benefits; thinking much about it in details, it doesn't seem to equal self-sacrificing; at least we won't benefit people on purpose at the expenses of, or exploiting, ourselves. That is sort of insane.

I am quite perplexed about this. It occurs to me that self-sacrifice is not an appropriate term or notion in the religious foundation

grateful if anyone may help; I wish I could explain to people more succinctly and vividly about our faith.

Ashley,
It seems to me that you have answered your own question. Self sacrificing means to put God and others before yourself. Taking up ones cross and following Him is self sacrificing. Humbling ourselves and repenting of our sins is self sacrificing. Jesus is the greatest example of this when He submitted himself fully to the Father, became a servant, and ultimately allowed Himself to be hung on a cross to offer salvation to the world.

[Ashley]

FFC,

it's nice getting your reply; scripturally speaking isn't our self distinctly a "new self" rather than "old self".

the self-sacrificing is referring to the old self that we sacrifice, but if we love each other like loving ourselves it sounds to me our faith does not let us deny the existence of our "self".

the self-sacrifice when I was told here is "denial of one self" which is distinct from what we understand in bible.

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[FFC]

FFC,

it's nice getting your reply; scripturally speaking isn't our self distinctly a "new self" rather than "old self".

Thank you, Ashley. In answer to your question I would say both. We are new creatures, as Paul says, but we also have a flesh that needs to be crucified every day. The struggle between the two emphasizes our need for the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Our need for God's Grace.

I Cor 15:31 by the pride which I have in you in [your fellowship and union with] Christ Jesus our Lord, that I die daily . (Amplified bible)


Romans 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

the self-sacrificing is referring to the old self that we sacrifice, but if we love each other like loving ourselves it sounds to me our faith does not let us deny the existence of our "self".

We don't deny the existence of ourselves per se, but spiritually speaking we do submit ourselves to God and consider ourselves crucified with Christ. In doing so we give Him the honor and glory that He deserves, and rely on His provision. Our faith should be completely directed to God. To do otherwise is pride.

the self-sacrifice when I was told here is "denial of one self" which is distinct from what we understand in bible.

Please elaborate.

[Ashley]

FFC,

I figure that in the scripture, sacrifice merely means our giving up the fleshly desire for, e.g. ambition, malice, greed... when we give up this cravings, and follow the Way, we sacrifice something, (or more accurately we conquer the evil for victory for Christ's sake)

another notion of self-sacrifice is self-deception - telling lies to oneself that he is holy and perfect, shun evil inborn and he belongs to the spirit. His evil cravings does not exit (even though it does).

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[andyredeemed]

A sacrifice to God has to be something worth sacrificing ie. given to God. If I give up, for instance, stealing or lying, is that really self-sacrifice? It seems to me that those things have to be dropped in the dirt where they belong when I come before God; God doesn't want them! But what about your money, honestly gained, or your free time, or your saftey or your right to marriage and family? I think those are the things that God regards as living sacrifice. Can you imagine the God of Moses, who wouldn't allow a blemished, diseased or injured animal to be offered as a sacrifice, being content to have us try to give Him our adulteries, whatever they may be? When we come to the cross, we give up all our rights on earth for the kingdom. This is not to say that we shouldn't marry, or have money, or whatever, but these are the things that God wants on the altar, whether they are returned to us or not is up to God, and we should be content with what we have. Watchman Nee did this when he was considering marriage, and decided to remain single. He discerned Gods will and obeyed it.

[Ashley]

A sacrifice to God has to be something worth sacrificing ie. given to God. If I give up, for instance, stealing or lying, is that really self-sacrifice? It seems to me that those things have to be dropped in the dirt where they belong when I come before God; God doesn't want them! But what about your money, honestly gained, or your free time, or your saftey or your right to marriage and family? I think those are the things that God regards as living sacrifice. Can you imagine the God of Moses, who wouldn't allow a blemished, diseased or injured animal to be offered as a sacrifice, being content to have us try to give Him our adulteries, whatever they may be? When we come to the cross, we give up all our rights on earth for the kingdom. This is not to say that we shouldn't marry, or have money, or whatever, but these are the things that God wants on the altar, whether they are returned to us or not is up to God, and we should be content with what we have. Watchman Nee did this when he was considering marriage, and decided to remain single. He discerned Gods will and obeyed it.

In response to your words, I would say that self-sacrificing refers to personal cravings that we give up for God's sake, and these cravings are always not what God looks at as sacred. In Genesis, Cain wasn't selfish. He sacrificed as well as Abel, but he fled off the handle and killed Abel simply because Abel offered the best of his work. Cain didn't. I think the key is the word "best" that pleases God and the best should be the priority to fulfil God's commandments like loving Him with all your hearts and all your might, and loving your neighbours as yourself;

The marriage predicament that you said is arguable, I think. Can you look at this as something God bestows rather than condemn so this guy gets married rather than remaining single for God's sake? I don't like accusing Nee of any retrospective justifying (he may not) but in ordinary course of life we either seek God for His will whether to go ahead with our plan or simply follow our own desire. In both situation we don't fall. frank, it wasn't a good example to me for illustrating the idea...

Having a heart-to-heart with God shunning the evil is self-sacrifcing, I would say that; marriage is not an evil deed, however. and weighing marriage with God's will on the same scale to calculate sacrificing, is rather doubtful an idea to say.... I don't know...

[B. W.]

In another manner — self sacrifice can include the sacrifice it takes to bear the yoke of Christ and learn of Him. His yoke is easy and burden is light. Notice the words — yoke and light as well as what these symbolize: Yoke — attaching oneself to Christ, walking side by side with him in this life. How are we to walk? Walk in the light.

The light of who God is - which Christ made public of - whom the Holy Spirit reveals how we also are to walk in that same light. When a person learns to walk in the light, shining whom God is and seen by the countenance of his or her character, one walks side by side with Christ. This takes self sacrifice — sacrifice of learning who the Lord is. This learning makes shining Christ-likeness and Godliness easy.

The journey begins when examining the yoke. Many stop and ponder wondering how hard is it to know God and learn of him. There they stand and do nothing debating theologies amongst fellow onlookers. Some say, “It's impossible to do,” and others gather about and just agree deliberating how to pick up such a yoke:

Will I lose my freedom? What will it cost? How can I do this? I do not want to become a religious fanatic? I can't cause of all the bad I do and done — still? How can Christ leave this yoke that none can take up or lift! God is unfair! God is Good? What am I to do? I cannot pick up this yoke, it would be way to heavy too bare upon my shoulders.

Then there are those that just say, “Ah heck, what do I have to lose? Why not?” They lift that yoke, find its weight easy and fit perfect and take the first step and learn of and who the Lord is as they go along their way - they shine.

That's the other manner of self sacrifice — will we pick up the yoke?
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[FFC]

We need to also keep in mind that when we are yoked to Christ we will have to put zero effort into our spiritual growth because Christ does all of the work.

Hmmm. lets see. I can sweat and toil in my own strength and get nowhere, or I can take Christs yoke upon me and be pulled along in the power of His grace. It's a no brainer.

[zoegirl]

I think FFC choose one of the best verses here. BE willing to make living sacrifices, be transformed...


You mentioned marriage and sacrifice. Certainly I don't think marriage is something God wants us to sacrifice. However, for marriage, those married are bound to each other. Their old selves would be tempted to cheat, view pornography, have lustful thoughts, be selfish instead of servants to the spouses. They are called to sacrifice their wants and desires that are sinful.

Being single, while free of the commitment, I am still nonethelss called to maintain pure thoughts and actions. We are to "flee from sexual immorality". Yet that is not what our old selves would want.

we are constainly "taking captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ Jesus" And when one contemplates the sheer awfulness of our thoughts, sacrificing out entire lives becomes more an more real. Sacrificing my every jealous moment, petty moment, thoughtless action, mean spirited thought (and unfortunatley actions), my lack of faith in God, my faith in my own capabilities.

To become, ultimatley, more Christ-like, by His grace, requires daily sacrifice of my wants and desires. Living fo Him and not for me.

[Ashley]

Both B.W. and FFC illustrated vividly how we follow Christ that relieve our burden and toil in our lives and learn to know Him - that's for sure a sweet one to walk along with Him. It is also gladful zoegirl answering bringing what the scriptures are telling us why we should or should not do this or that.

I am not being challenging, but it is sort of confusing, while God think it is good for a man and a woman to unite to be one in Genesis, but Paul said that it is only a concession we should get married simply to get away from sinful lust. Isn't it a blessing to marry instead of something like lustful desire in marriage that keeps us from purity to follow Christ in single..? A couple yoked with Christ together instead of a single going alone sounds much much better. I trust that God like us to go in the former way, not the latter way, that is too harsh.


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[zoegirl]

From what I remember in learning about Paul (although please, others who might know more, chime in), his statemnts were not meant to be outright condemnation of marriage. If I recall correctly, Paul was addressing a specific issue at the church at the time, stating that at this time, it would be wise to abstain and commit fully to the Lord. Paul refers to "the present crisis", indicating that there was something unique about the situation in Corinth.

Although God has called me to presently single, I don;t take this as some sort of condemning sacrifice, any more than a wife and husband must remain faithful to each other. Whether I marry or not, He must be who I live for.

(although this contentment in single-ness is far easier to type than it is to live )

I think itis clear from many of the scripture passages that God wants us to simply say "Here I am, Lord", wherever we are in life, be it married or single, awaitinng a job, in a job, at school, overseas...

We must also look to other examples in scripture...think of Joseph, who had to wait in prison all those years, awaiting God's perfect timing. It was certainyl God's will for Joseph to be out of prison but ONLY in His timing. JAcob, as well, had to wait all that time for Rachel (poor Leah!). And the prize for patience goes to....Abraham. Certainly, God was willing to bless them with descendants, but within His timing.

Think of all the things these people had to give up in trusting God.

Abraham sacrificed children for all those years. (and see how this was messed with when they went ahead and trusted in themselves instead of God?)

ANYWAY, hope this helps

[Ashley]

Zoegirl,

Belive it or not, Christians are more difficult to marry. At least I am inclined to think the reason is because Christians like us learn something about God's will; our knowledge about His will may make us spontaneously put more judgement and measurement over other people who do not believe. Even these people believe in the Lord but Christians still like judging others very heavily than non-believers (I know it is quite subjective but I emphasize that it is my observation for some time and i do some self-examination; I realize that we like judging others very much).

If judging is so fierce, it is more difficult for a couple to get along easily.

I don't know if my words sound offensive, but I do wish it may help if it is a bell alarming people to think about it. Ethical judgement (especially Christians who are more prone to be an expert on ethical judgement) ruins a lot of relationship.

Honestly Jesus does not teach us to judge. He teaches us to love. The church that I am now going to is sorta this type. I often feel like being a prisoner in a camp armed with a lot of patient listeners and onlookers that judge me rather than caring about me, judging on my gestures, behaviour, my interaction... at times some of them hurl comments (with questions) when I am talking to another group. It was quite disgusting. It was none of the commenters' business but they interfered to ask. very disgusting.




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[zoegirl]

Somehow this conversation went from sacrifcie to judgement and, withall due respect, I cannot agree with your arguements. Nor do I fully understand the drstic switch of topics.

One, for the very simple reason that the reasons why people are not married have so many factors that to simply generalize that we are judgmental is way too easy. (And believe, singles struggle with this question plenty)

Secondly, your argument can be applied to non-Christians as well. If I were to advertise my Chrisianity, then many would CHOOSE to not be in a relationship with me because of my beliefs. Judgemental? perhaps? Wise? probably.

Third, the secular world does this ALL the time. If I were a non-Christian (who had actively chosen to be a non-Chrisitan), why would I be labeled judgmental to say "to be married with this person would not be wise". Even the secular world makes much about finding those who are well matched with us, going so far as to make decisions about marriage based on what foods and hobbies you like. GOod grief!! Would you call someone judgemental if they wanted to find someone who shared their interests? Then why is it so bad to find someone who shares our deepest beliefs? I would hope that everyone would want to find someone who agrees with them about their worldview. If this is so wrong, then Match.com and eHarmony are going about it totally wrong.

Christ called us to not be unequally yoked. this can apply to non-believers and to people who we would not be yoked well with. Discernment is highly valued is scripture. Ultimatley, though, I am single because God wants me there in my life.


Finally, of course we should always be willing to examine ourselves. If we are being judgemental, then of course we should ask forgiveness. However, there are PLENTY of married people (married Chirstians no less ) that are very judgmental. Plenty of atheists who are judgmental, plenty of agnostics who are judgmental. Plenty of Jews, plenty of Buddhists, plenty of Hindus, plenty of Islamists who are judgmental....get the point?

[Ashley]

Zoegirl,

I get your points. Sorry for switching with topics different from the theme of this thread.


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