Evidence for God from Science

As we know, there are two accounts of the birth of Jesus - Matthew dealt with the 'star' that eventually led the "wise men" (astrologers from Babylon) to where Jesus was a living in a house as a young child. Luke dealt with the God's angel who told the shepherds that Jesus had just been born and that they would find him in a manger in Bethlehem.

Although the two accounts took place at two different times (perhaps as much as 2 years apart), Christmas cards (and pagents) often combine the two. For example, I have seen the "wise men" there in the manger with the shepherds. But according both Matthew and Luke those men were never there.

I have also seen pictures of the shepherds out in the field with their sheep and a beautiful 'star' hanging over the manager in Bethlehem. But according to Luke the shepherds didn't see any 'star.'

While there is no question that God was involved in guiding the shepherds so that they could find Jesus, was God also involved in guiding those astrologers? Here are some reasons why I don't think so.

1) Someplace in the Old Testament God told the Jews not to have anything to do with astrology. And so I wouldn't think He himself would then use astrologers to help announce the birth of His Son.

2) When that 'star' first appeared in the east (Babylon) it didn't lead those men to Jesus in Bethlehem. It led them to King Herod in Jerusalem; an evil man who wanted Jesus destroyed (2:13). That 'star' only began to guide them to Bethlehem after Herod had been alerted.

3) It was because of the appearance of that 'star' that all the male babies in Bethlehem two years old and younger were slaughtered! I find it hard to believe that God had anything to do with such a 'star.'

Rather then thinking that God used that 'star' for his purpose, it looks to me that it was more likely something used by Satan the Devil for his own purpose to disrupt God's plan of salvation before it had a chance to get started.

And so when I see a Christmas tree with a big star on the top I cannot help but think of it as Satan's star that almost ruined our chance of eternal life.

Don

To add a question of my own...can anyone tell me where God says to have nothing to do with astrology?

Mr. Hyde,

The king of Judah (Josiah I think) was in the process of cleaning up all the false religious practices that his predecessors had fallen into. Among many other things, "He put out of business...those making sacrificial smoke to Baal, to the sun and to the zodiac and to all the army of the heavens." - 2 Kings 23:5.

Seems to me that something else having to do with astrology is mentioned some place else but I can't remember where it is.

Don

Mr. Hyde,

Here are some things I came across...

Stars in the Old Testament.

"There was one part of the world where, officially at least, the art of Astrology was condemned and ridiculed. Just one tiny part of the known world rejected astrology, its predictions and those who made them. That place was Israel. The name of the religion? Judaism.

"Judaism was almost unique in the then known world. While most everyone else worshipped a whole host of rocks, trees, fable heros, stars, idols & people, the Jews believed in one, invisible, all powerful God. He created everything and he is the supreme source of revelation.

"The most important form of that revelation is the Jewish writings of the Law, Wisdom and the Prophets. It might be useful at this point to examine what Judaism says about Astrology, and stars in general.

"Deuteronomy 4:19
And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars - all the heavenly array - do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshipping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

"This warns the Israelites not to be tempted to worship objects in the sky. Nothing bars them from being observers of the sky; just that when they do observe the sky they are not to worship what they see. The heavenly bodies are not national gods of various countries but their purpose goes beyond that and benefits all nations.

"Isaiah 47 13 - 15 compares Astrology with sorcery.
"All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. Here are no coals to warm anyone; here is no fire to sit by. That is all they can do for you - these you have laboured with and trafficked with since childhood. Each of them goes on in his error; there is not one that can save you.

"Astrologers, whom Isaiah defines as 'stargazers who make predictions, month by month', are condemned. Their predictions have their hearers running around trying to respond to what they have heard. They only succeed in wearing themselves out. Astrologers are in error and are condemned.

"Despite this warning, the Israelites pay little account of this for we are told in Jeremiah chapter 8 that God believes that the bones of past kings of Israel should be dug up and put out in the open. The reason being that since they loved, served, followed, consulted & worshipped the Sun, Moon and stars so much, they should be exposed to their sight! A good example of this is King Manasseh, whom, we are told in 2Chr 33:3, built alters to the starry hosts.

"This acceptance of astrology and star worship by the Jews is partly due to the mysticism of the sky. There is a thin dividing line between being in awe, and worshipping. It is also due in part to the importing of foreign cultures, the bane of the Jewish religion.

"Jeremiah 43:13 tells us that the Sun is worshipped by other nations. Amos 5:26 tells us of the Egyptian god, Rephan, or the Assyrian equivalent, Kaiwan, both identified as the planet Saturn. Archaeology reveals to us that celestial worship was common place. It is not surprising then, that the Israelites were tempted to follow this foreign enthusiasm for starry gods.

"From all this it might appear that stars have a bad press in the Old Testament. This is far from true. Stars first appear in Genesis 1:14, where God explains that the purpose of Sun, Moon and stars are to serve as signs, to mark off the seasons, days and years. The scientific application of celestial observation is thus encouraged . The Sun moon and stars are signs; but signs to define the calendar and for time keeping.

"In addition to this there are many examples of stars and constellation names mentioned in the Bible showing that astronomy was a Jewish interest. ( the "seven stars" and "Pleiades," "Orion,", "Arcturus," the "Great Bear" #Am 5:8 Job 9:9 Job 38:31 "the crooked serpent," Draco #Job 26:13 the Dioscuri, or Gemini, "Castor and Pollux" #Ac 28:11 ) The use of star and constellation names in the Bible reflect God's greatness and ability. (#Ps 8:1 ff #Ps 19:1-6 Is 51:6 etc.) Stars are also used in a metaphorical sense to represent certain people."

Don

DonCameron wrote:"In addition to this there are many examples of stars and constellation names mentioned in the Bible showing that astronomy was a Jewish interest. ( the "seven stars" and "Pleiades," "Orion,", "Arcturus," the "Great Bear" #Am 5:8 Job 9:9 Job 38:31 "the crooked serpent," Draco #Job 26:13 the Dioscuri, or Gemini, "Castor and Pollux" #Ac 28:11 ) The use of star and constellation names in the Bible reflect God's greatness and ability. (#Ps 8:1 ff #Ps 19:1-6 Is 51:6 etc.) Stars are also used in a metaphorical sense to represent certain people."

Don

That is correct... Actually few people know that the constellation Hydra is actually the dragon in Revelation 12:3-4.

A Star is used in many things not just Astrology LIKE THIS for example

Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Scepter shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
Psa 136:9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth forever.
Psa 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.


This is Interesting

Amo 5:8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Who's Star?? HIS STAR!! Jesus's Star!

Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

So why didn't Herod just go there to Destroy Jesus right then and there? Why did an Angel Later on warn the Wise Men

Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.


The Verses below tell what we should not do

Deu 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Deu 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

And After all this rambling I have nothing to say but the STAR was seen by many yet few came but the Wise who knew where it led!

Bizzt,

I may misunderstand you on this matter, but I get the impression that you feel that the 'star' was something good that God had provided so that those men from the east would be able to find Jesus.

You quoted Mat 2:8: "And Herod sent the wise men them to Bethlehem, and said, 'Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also."'

Do you feel that Herod was sincere when he said that he wanted to worship Jesus? When I realized that later he tried to make sure Jesus was killed, I have concluded that he was lying. (I assume that those wise men were sincere.)

One of the main things that makes me suspicious of that 'star' is the fact that it didn't lead those men directly to where Jesus was. It led them to a man who wanted Jesus dead. On the other hand, the shepherds were directed to where Jesus was by an angel rather than by a 'star.'

Don

DonCameron wrote:Bizzt,

I may misunderstand you on this matter, but I get the impression that you feel that the 'star' was something good that God had provided so that those men from the east would be able to find Jesus.

You quoted Mat 2:8: "And Herod sent the wise men them to Bethlehem, and said, 'Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also."'

Do you feel that Herod was sincere when he said that he wanted to worship Jesus? When I realized that later he tried to make sure Jesus was killed, I have concluded that he was lying. (I assume that those wise men were sincere.)

One of the main things that makes me suspicious of that 'star' is the fact that it didn't lead those men directly to where Jesus was. It led them to a man who wanted Jesus dead. On the other hand, the shepherds were directed to where Jesus was by an angel rather than by a 'star.'

Don

Don,

The Magi were astrologers but not in the sense that we understand astrology today. Astrology back then was what astronomy is today, a science. Either case, I see no problem whatsoever with God using whomever he wishes in fulfillment of the prophesies. The star guided the Magi to Jesus. The killing of the children by Herod was in fulfillment of the prophesy in Jeremiah 31:15 and not due to the star leading the Magi to Herod.

Does that make sense to you?

Hi Byblos,

Byblos wrote:The killing of the children by Herod was in fulfillment of the prophesy in Jeremiah 31:15 and not due to the star leading the Magi to Herod.

My thinking is that if that 'star' had not led those men to Herod, he would not have known about Jesus' birth and therefore there would have been no reason for him to have all those babies killed.

Again, rather than thinking that the 'star' was placed there by God in order to accomplish God's purpose, it seems more reasonable to me that it was placed there by Satan in order to accomplish Satan's purpose.

Don

DonCameron wrote:Hi Byblos,

Byblos wrote:The killing of the children by Herod was in fulfillment of the prophesy in Jeremiah 31:15 and not due to the star leading the Magi to Herod.

My thinking is that if that 'star' had not led those men to Herod, he would not have known about Jesus' birth and therefore there would have been no reason for him to have all those babies killed.

Again, rather than thinking that the 'star' was placed there by God in order to accomplish God's purpose, it seems more reasonable to me that it was placed there by Satan in order to accomplish Satan's purpose.

Don

Don,

First, I'm not sure I'd attribute the placement of the star to either God or Satan. Nothing in scripture gives any hint of either (other than to highlight the Magi's quest to seek the new king). The fact is that the Magi were well versed in everything celestial and the star could very well have been a vision borne of their deep knowledge of the skies and their desire to meet and worship the new king of the Jews. I think you're attaching too much importance to it as

second, are you saying if the star weren't there, then Jeremiah's prophesy would not have been fulfilled? I rather doubt that. The Magi were not led directly to Herod. He heard rumors first, then summoned the Magi for a secret meeting. If anything I would say it was the rumors as the catalyst for the killing of the children, not the star. Who do you think was responsible for those rumors reaching Herod?

John.

Byblos wrote:Are you saying if the star wasn't there, then Jeremiah's prophesy would not have been fulfilled?

Since Jeremiah's prophecy didn't mention anything about a 'star' then it would seem that the presence or absence of such a 'star' would not have any effect on Jeremiah's prophecy one way or the other. It seems to me that Jeremiah's prophecy could have been fulfilled in other ways without a 'star' being involved. Satan chose to use astrologers and convince them to follow his 'star' with the goal of alerting the evil king Herod that Satan knew would not permit any king to replace him.

Byblos wrote:The Magi were not led directly to Herod. He heard rumors first, then summoned the Magi for a secret meeting. If anything I would say it was the rumors as the catalyst for the killing of the children, not the star.

Did Herod hear rumors about the birth of king first - before the 'star' arrived in Jerusalem, or after it had already led the Magi there?

And too, would there have been any rumors if that 'star' had not led those men to Jerusalem?

You asked, Who do you think was responsible for those rumors reaching Herod?

I have assumed it was Satan. The way I have looked at this matter is that those sincere men from Babylon were misled by Satan in order to destroy God's means of salvation before Jesus had a chance to accomplish his Father's will.

Don

DonCameron wrote:

Byblos wrote:Are you saying if the star wasn't there, then Jeremiah's prophesy would not have been fulfilled?

Since Jeremiah's prophecy didn't mention anything about a 'star' then it would seem that the presence or absence of such a 'star' would not have any effect on Jeremiah's prophecy one way or the other. It seems to me that Jeremiah's prophecy could have been fulfilled in other ways without a 'star' being involved. Satan chose to use astrologers and convince them to follow his 'star' with the goal of alerting the evil king Herod that Satan knew would not permit any king to replace him.

I agree that Satan certainly played a role in Herod's decision to kill the children but I can't see how you link that with the star of Bethlehem. The star was used to lead the Magi to the newborn king and to announce this joyful event (the coming of the Messiah) to the rest of the world. If in route evil men committed evil deeds (in fulfilment of scripture no less), those deeds cannot possibly be attributed to the star. If it were the case then you'd have to attribute every evil deed committed since the birth of Christ (directly or indirectly) to the star of Bethlehem. That's of course absurd.

To illustrate, I once saw an (newer) episode of The Twilight Zone in which a star (a sun) orbited by an inhabited planet much like our own Earth, went supernova and, in the process, the inhabited planet was destroyed and all inhabitants killed (several million, if I recall). A team of astronomers later discovered (horrifically) that this star went supernova just around the time of Jesus' birth and was actually the instrument used to lead the Magi to the manger. The conclusion was that in the process of announcing the joyful coming of a saviour on Earth, another planet was condemned to death. To say nothing of the implications that alien life form does exist, that's the level of absurdity that can be reached when one lets their imagination run wild.

DonCameron wrote:

Byblos wrote:The Magi were not led directly to Herod. He heard rumors first, then summoned the Magi for a secret meeting. If anything I would say it was the rumors as the catalyst for the killing of the children, not the star.

Did Herod hear rumors about the birth of king first - before the 'star' arrived in Jerusalem, or after it had already led the Magi there?

DonCameron wrote:And too, would there have been any rumors if that 'star' had not led those men to Jerusalem?

You already said that with or without the star, Jeremiah's prophesy would've been fulfilled one way or the other. I agree. I think the same thing applies to the Magi and the star. With or without it, I have the distinct feeling they would still have accomplished what they set out to do (and rumors would still have found a way to Herod).

DonCameron wrote:You asked, Who do you think was responsible for those rumors reaching Herod?

I have assumed it was Satan. The way I have looked at this matter is that those sincere men from Babylon were misled by Satan in order to destroy God's means of salvation before Jesus had a chance to accomplish his Father's will.

I also agree that it was Satan who was responsible for the rumors reaching Herod but I do not agree that the Magi were misled by Satan. After all, they accomplished what they set out to do, which is reach the new king and worship him. In route Satan used Herod to commit atrocities in an effort to kill the new messiah. He did not succeed. In any case, it's not the star's fault.

John.

John,

John wrote:I do not agree that the Magi were misled by Satan.

We know for a certainty that the shepherds in Luke's account were not misled by Satan. They were not misdirected to go to Jerusalem where Herod was. God's angel told them that they would find Jesus in Bethlehem. They didn't need to consult with anyone else to know where to go.

John wrote:After all, they accomplished what they set out to do, which is reach the new king and worship him. In route Satan used Herod to commit atrocities in an effort to kill the new messiah. He did not succeed. In any case, it's not the star's fault.

But they could have accomplished what they set out to do sooner if that 'star' had not directed them to Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem.

How about this...

* Whose fault was it that those babies were slaughtered? Answer: Herod.
* Whose fault was it that Herod found out that Jesus had been born and was living in Bethlehem? Answer: The Magi.
* Whose fault was it that the Magi wound up in Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem? Answer: That 'star.'
* Who programed that 'star' to go to Jerusalem rather than Bethlehem? Answer: God or Satan?
* Who then was ultimately responsible for the death of all those babies in Bethlehem? Answer: It looks to me that it was whoever was responsible for that 'star.'

Don

DonCameron wrote:John,

John wrote:I do not agree that the Magi were misled by Satan.

We know for a certainty that the shepherds in Luke's account were not misled by Satan. They were not misdirected to go to Jerusalem where Herod was. God's angel told them that they would find Jesus in Bethlehem. They didn't need to consult with anyone else to know where to go.

That's because most likely the shepherds were in much closer proximity to Bethlehem than they were to Jerusalem. It would've made quite a detour to go to Jerusalem first then come back to Bethlehem. The Magi, on the other hand, were travelling from Persia (which is due North, North East) and had a much farther distance to travel. Considering Jerusalem was the larger and more well known city, as well as the closer city due West, it makes logical sense why the Magi would have traveled to Jerusalem first and not to Bethlehem. From Persia they spotted the star which they followed in a general westerly direction. Once they reached Jerusalem (and only after the rumors and the Herod business) the star led them to Bethlehem. The journey was sort of like travelling in a general direction to a big city hub (airport or train/bus terminal) then taking a taxi to the final destination in the suburbs.

DonCameron wrote:

John wrote:After all, they accomplished what they set out to do, which is reach the new king and worship him. In route Satan used Herod to commit atrocities in an effort to kill the new messiah. He did not succeed. In any case, it's not the star's fault.

But they could have accomplished what they set out to do sooner if that 'star' had not directed them to Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem.

Like I said, the star did not do any directing until after they reached Jerusalem (the main hub). Only then did the star guide them to Bethlehem.

DonCameron wrote:How about this...

DonCameron wrote:* Whose fault was it that those babies were slaughtered? Answer: Herod.

Agreed.

DonCameron wrote:* Whose fault was it that Herod found out that Jesus had been born and was living in Bethlehem? Answer: The Magi.

Agreed but we've already established that with or without the Magi, Herod would've found out anyway and would've still done his evil deeds in fulfillment of the scripture.

DonCameron wrote:* Whose fault was it that the Magi wound up in Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem? Answer: That 'star.'

We've also already established that with or without the star, the Magi would've found their way to Jerusalem first (you know, the hub?). Since all of this could've been accomplished without the star, it could not be the star's fault otherwise its presence would've been instrumental (and irreducible).

DonCameron wrote:* Who programed that 'star' to go to Jerusalem rather than Bethlehem? Answer: God or Satan?

I would answer maybe God or no one (as in the figment of the Magi's star-gazing imagination). Certainly not Satan.

DonCameron wrote:* Who then was ultimately responsible for the death of all those babies in Bethlehem? Answer: It looks to me that it was whoever was responsible for that 'star.'

I would answer Satan by way of Herod. The way I see it, Satan will ALWAYS attempt to foil God's plan even if it means helping in fulfilling prophesies, thereby proving God right all along. He just can't help himself. No self-control whatsoever with this guy, I tell ya! he needs some extensive therapy (sorry, a feeble attempt at humor ).

John.

John wrote:Without the star, the Magi would've found their way to Jerusalem first

But without that 'star' what reason would astrologers have had for making such a long trip to Jerusalem in the first place? They said the only reason they had made the trip was because, "We saw his star when we were in the east."

Somehow through the use of astrology those astrologers had correctly interpreted that 'star' to mean that a king of the Jews had recently been born somewhere in the middle east. But who helped them understand that event?

We know that one of God's angels helped the shepherds learn of Jesus' birth. But there is no mention of any angel of God helping those astrologers until they got ready to go back to Jerusalem in order to let Herod know where Jesus was. This is the only mention of God getting involved with those men. And when He did it was not to help Herod but rather to warn them to stay away from him.

What then about Satan? Is he the one who helped them become aware of Jesus' birth? He certainly knew that Jesus had been born. Did he then take advantage of the astrologers' profession in order to try to arrange for Jesus to be put to death before he had any chance of doing his Father's will?

That's what it looks like to me.

Don