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LYING: Is it something we should acoid??
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:12 am
by madscientist
This is one of the things that has always bothered me: LYING. Does the Bible say we are not allowed to lie - that in ANY circumstance it is a sin. But what if it helps to save someone's life? Are not we allowed to lie even if a single small lie can make a big difference? It is a sin, but this is true - sometimes a small lie, even being a sin, can make the situation go in a way where in the future or as a result, less evil and sin happens. E.g. i know if i tell the truth that person will be angry and our frienship will go bad as has happened before - knowing from previous experience. ANd if i dont lie i make sin of lying but he doesnt need to get angry we dont have to be in anger. Whats a bigger sin - small lie or anger and hatred?
So are we allowed to lie when it can improve the situauton? E.g, we are not supposed to hide our faith from others even if our lives are to be taken. But are not we supposed to try and prevent our lives from being taken? Wouldnt telling the truth, if knowing death follows, be a sort of suicide? (Not talking about courts etc but simple situautoins e.g. during WW2 saying you are not a jew to save yourself AND OTHERS). If a lie can save other people's lives cant it be considered uselful?
Id apprecitate if someone could give me opinions and id like to discuss it further coz i think its a pretty interesting topic... when lies are considreded to be allowed and when no etc...
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:40 am
by Turgonian
Biblical Situation Ethics, or Graded Absolutism
To cite another case dealing with biblical situation ethics, one should reflect upon Rahab's “false telling” versus “truth telling,” which stands as a classic. What should she have done? Should she have practiced deception to save the spies? What was right? What was wrong? What would you have done? Should one always tell the truth despite circumstances? Hasn't everyone been confronted with the dilemma of when to tell or when not to tell the truth? Are there ever any “exemptions” to the command not to tell falsehoods? Does God withhold accountability from the person who demonstrates mercy to the innocent rather than truth telling to the guilty? What does the Word of God assert concerning mercy to the innocent instead of “truth telling” to the guilty?
Before one seeks an answer to Rahab's predicament, one should observe what God has said about fabrication. God, through Moses, commanded that one “shall not give false testimony against your neighbor” (Exodus 20:16). Paul also writes that one “must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor” (Ephesians 4:25). Again, Solomon says that “The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful” (Proverbs 12:22). Now, on the other hand, the Bible records circumstances in which lying was practiced in order to save lives. Were the above Scriptures violated in the actions of Rahab? Can one deceive and still be innocent? Rahab is one such person who exhibited “mercy showing” rather than “truth telling” to the guilty. Rahab hid the spies, who were involved in espionage, from Israel's enemies and then lied to save their lives (Joshua 2:1-7). Did she sin? Did she apply in principle biblical law and truth to the situation? Was she mixed up in “situation ethics”? It seems that God withheld accountability and rewarded her for her “mercy showing” to the people of God rather than “truth telling” to God's enemies. She practiced what Jesus condemned the Pharisees for not considering—“I desire mercy, not sacrifice” (Matthew 12:7).
In spite of her deception, God immortalized her in the Book of Hebrew's “Hall of Fame (Hebrews 11:31). Nowhere does the Bible condemn her for her actions. In fact she is listed in the genealogy of Jesus (Matthew 1:5). Her performance was an integral part mercy, which God was pleased with; God is a God of mercy. In evaluating her difficulty, one must weigh the totality of God's Word. Everyone should reflect upon the words of the prophet Micah in his admonition to the children of Israel: “He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8). Again, everyone should reflect upon the words of Jesus to the religious leaders: “If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent” (Matthew 12:7).
Since God desires mercy more than sacrifice, then, it should not be surprising to any that mercy takes the lead over law. This revelation of God's kindness should come as a relief to all. For one to comprehend the implications of “truth telling” versus “false telling” and the superiority of one absolute over another absolute, one only needs to read the story of Corrie Ten Boom who lied to the Nazis to save the lives of Jews. Her deceptions were not evil, but good. Parallels are present between the “then” (Rahab) and the “now” (Corrie Ten Boom).
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:30 pm
by FFC
Turgonian wrote:Biblical Situation Ethics, or Graded Absolutism
To cite another case dealing with biblical situation ethics, one should reflect upon Rahab's “false telling” versus “truth telling,” which stands as a classic. What should she have done? Should she have practiced deception to save the spies? What was right? What was wrong? What would you have done? Should one always tell the truth despite circumstances? Hasn't everyone been confronted with the dilemma of when to tell or when not to tell the truth? Are there ever any “exemptions” to the command not to tell falsehoods? Does God withhold accountability from the person who demonstrates mercy to the innocent rather than truth telling to the guilty? What does the Word of God assert concerning mercy to the innocent instead of “truth telling” to the guilty?
Before one seeks an answer to Rahab's predicament, one should observe what God has said about fabrication. God, through Moses, commanded that one “shall not give false testimony against your neighbor” (Exodus 20:16). Paul also writes that one “must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor” (Ephesians 4:25). Again, Solomon says that “The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful” (Proverbs 12:22). Now, on the other hand, the Bible records circumstances in which lying was practiced in order to save lives. Were the above Scriptures violated in the actions of Rahab? Can one deceive and still be innocent? Rahab is one such person who exhibited “mercy showing” rather than “truth telling” to the guilty. Rahab hid the spies, who were involved in espionage, from Israel's enemies and then lied to save their lives (Joshua 2:1-7). Did she sin? Did she apply in principle biblical law and truth to the situation? Was she mixed up in “situation ethics”? It seems that God withheld accountability and rewarded her for her “mercy showing” to the people of God rather than “truth telling” to God's enemies. She practiced what Jesus condemned the Pharisees for not considering—“I desire mercy, not sacrifice” (Matthew 12:7).
In spite of her deception, God immortalized her in the Book of Hebrew's “Hall of Fame (Hebrews 11:31). Nowhere does the Bible condemn her for her actions. In fact she is listed in the genealogy of Jesus (Matthew 1:5). Her performance was an integral part mercy, which God was pleased with; God is a God of mercy. In evaluating her difficulty, one must weigh the totality of God's Word. Everyone should reflect upon the words of the prophet Micah in his admonition to the children of Israel: “He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8). Again, everyone should reflect upon the words of Jesus to the religious leaders: “If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent” (Matthew 12:7).
Since God desires mercy more than sacrifice, then, it should not be surprising to any that mercy takes the lead over law. This revelation of God's kindness should come as a relief to all. For one to comprehend the implications of “truth telling” versus “false telling” and the superiority of one absolute over another absolute, one only needs to read the story of Corrie Ten Boom who lied to the Nazis to save the lives of Jews. Her deceptions were not evil, but good. Parallels are present between the “then” (Rahab) and the “now” (Corrie Ten Boom).
I agree with that quote. Can we say that withholding the truth in some situations is not always lying in a deceptive way? Like when your wife or girlfriend asks "do I look fat in this dress?"
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:02 pm
by puritan lad
You could always respond the way I once did as a young man to my friend's sister.
"That dress doesn't make you look fat. It's your fat that makes you look fat".
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:08 pm
by Judah
And PL, while I swiped you with my handbag, I would be giving FFC a big hug for such charming restraint.
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:45 pm
by FFC
Judah wrote:And PL, while I swiped you with my handbag, I would be giving FFC a big hug for such charming restraint.
Judah, forgive him, for he knows not what he does.
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:39 pm
by puritan lad
Hey, I was very young, and she asked the question for the perfect setup. I couldn't resist then...
But I'm much smarter now. I would just change the subject if necessary. :D
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:15 am
by Turgonian
FFC wrote:Can we say that withholding the truth in some situations is not always lying in a deceptive way? Like when your wife or girlfriend asks "do I look fat in this dress?"
I don't think we should call 'white lies' moral. There are many other ways out; the best one is to start a long sermon on the philosophical difference between beauty and prettiness and on how important it all is -- that's sure to discourage the other from further silly questions.
Nicely done, Puritan Lad.
Lyig an the article
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:00 am
by madscientist
I read some of the article only on the harlot of rahab and midwives and government but i didnt have enough time for the rest. So then God allows lies to be told to save lives of others? And what if the life is to the person telling the lie? Or, is it an obligation to lie if you know you can save someone? Would it be wrong to say the truth even if it condemns the innocent? I know God never lies but God has absolute infinite power we dont. Or with spies... if someone tells you "Are you hiding spies" should you say "yes" not to lie?? Then what was the purpose in the 1st place??!! This just makes the situatuon even more illogical if you are determined to do it secret etc then shouldnt you be determined to lie at any cost??
Or e.g. recording a conversation in secret, and someone asks you "Are you not doing it" and if you know it was the authority that asked it, should you lie consciusly to the one to be listened secretly or should you tell him? Then whats the right thing in Gods eyes?
Another example i thoight about is taking the "responsibility" even if it wasnt supposed to be you - e.g. that someone does something and you are so kind and love the person you prefer to take his punishmnet. Is this MORAL with God? It is a lie which helps the guilty - you can even sacrifice your life... would it be suicide? OK what if the person condemned was innocent and you decided to take responsiility because you wanted to sacrifice for him? Does it make it any different if he is or is not guilty??
I kno maybe those questions seem annoting but i think its quite interesting on issues of ethics etc... and moral righteousness etc.
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:11 am
by FFC
Turgonian wrote:FFC wrote:Can we say that withholding the truth in some situations is not always lying in a deceptive way? Like when your wife or girlfriend asks "do I look fat in this dress?"
I don't think we should call 'white lies' moral. There are many other ways out; the best one is to start a long sermon on the philosophical difference between beauty and prettiness and on how important it all is -- that's sure to discourage the other from further silly questions.
Let me know how that works out for you.
Re: Lyig an the article
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:15 pm
by Turgonian
madscientist wrote:I read some of the article only on the harlot of rahab and midwives and government but i didnt have enough time for the rest. So then God allows lies to be told to save lives of others? And what if the life is to the person telling the lie? Or, is it an obligation to lie if you know you can save someone? Would it be wrong to say the truth even if it condemns the innocent? I know God never lies but God has absolute infinite power we dont. Or with spies... if someone tells you "Are you hiding spies" should you say "yes" not to lie?? Then what was the purpose in the 1st place??!! This just makes the situatuon even more illogical if you are determined to do it secret etc then shouldnt you be determined to lie at any cost??
Or e.g. recording a conversation in secret, and someone asks you "Are you not doing it" and if you know it was the authority that asked it, should you lie consciusly to the one to be listened secretly or should you tell him? Then whats the right thing in Gods eyes?
Yes, we are allowed to lie if it saves another person's life. I'm not sure if we're allowed to lie to save our OWN lives, so I'd like some others' opinions.
I don't know if we have an obligation to lie in that case. Some people take the solid, Kantian stance of, 'I won't lie no matter what'. An example: when the Germans went into a house during WWII, they came to ask the man living there whether he hid any Jews. In fact he did, underneath a trapdoor in the floor, on top of which he had laid a carpet. So he answered, 'Yes, the Jews are under the carpet' (these people do not believe God will ever place them before two conflicting ethical demands). The Germans thought he was kidding, laughed and left the house.
That's the other option.
madscientist wrote:Another example i thoight about is taking the "responsibility" even if it wasnt supposed to be you - e.g. that someone does something and you are so kind and love the person you prefer to take his punishmnet. Is this MORAL with God? It is a lie which helps the guilty - you can even sacrifice your life... would it be suicide? OK what if the person condemned was innocent and you decided to take responsiility because you wanted to sacrifice for him? Does it make it any different if he is or is not guilty??
I kno maybe those questions seem annoting but i think its quite interesting on issues of ethics etc... and moral righteousness etc.
They aren't annoying questions...they're very interesting.
I don't know if a lie is allowed to take the other's place. I don't think it's moral if the other is justly condemned. When the other is unjustly condemned, though (e.g. for helping Jews during WWII -- even if they really did it, they did the right thing and did not deserve to be condemned)...I just don't know if that's allowed.
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:08 pm
by puritan lad
I don't know if this has been addressed on these boards, but anyone want to explain the ethics surrounding Rahab's lie?
See Joshua 2:1-7.
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:07 pm
by FFC
puritan lad wrote:I don't know if this has been addressed on these boards, but anyone want to explain the ethics surrounding Rahab's lie?
See Joshua 2:1-7.
I don't know what the ethics surrounding it are but it looks to me like another example of God using someone to do His will regardless of the perceptions that people may get from it.
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:35 am
by puritan lad
True. But two things are very clear about this.
1.) Rahab told a baldfaced lie.
2.) God blessed her for it.
I suppose that the issue could more properly be framed by comparing the two choices,
1.) Lie.
2.) Betray God's People.
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:14 am
by Turgonian
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' Love (correctly defined) for one's neighbour is always more important than other commandments and overrules such commands as, 'Thou shalt not bear false witness'. See also the article I linked to in an earlier post in this thread, about 'graded absolutism'.
Personally I don't really like the term. When you assert that every command is 'absolute in its own sphere', it might not take long for some postmodernists to claim that absolute truths are absolute in their own sphere.
However, the concept of 'graded absolutism', 'biblical situation ethics', 'the person-in-the-situation' is IMO biblical.