Evidence for God from Science

I was telling our friend Byblos how I stumbled across a website called http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/ Questioning: an examination of christian belief. Unbeknownst to me, it turns out that he is an old friend of mine who periodically attends my church with his wife, and about twenty years ago he was very active in serving Christ in many areas in the church. I knew him from our singles group. you can probably tell from my post that we had fallen out of touch.

Now as it turns out he has de-converted from evangelical Christianity and religion in general. If you check out his site you'll see that he systematically dismantles all of orthodox christianity beliefs in a very polite and civil way.

I'm extremely saddened and astounded by this because I was sure that he was a christian. He even asserts that he was but through careful questioning and investigation over a time he came to the conclusion that none of it is valid.

Has anybody heard of anything like this before? What do you say to someone like this?

FFC, I was quite moved by the "Introduction: The Challenge of Faith" written by Lee Strobel in his book "The Case for faith" where he writes an account of his meeting with the elderly Charles Templeton who had once been a close companion and preaching colleague of evangelist Billy Graham.
Templeton had lost his faith and become agnostic. Strobel interviews him when Templeton is dying, and is showing signs of Alzheimer's disease. After saying how he had come to lose his faith, Templeton then changed the entire tone of the interview when he became emotional and uttered words Strobel never expected to hear - "And if I may put it this way," he said as his voice began to crack, "I...miss...him!" Then Templeton wept openly. He was talking of Jesus.

That scene has often stuck in my mind - that of a man who was a strong evangelical Christian leading others to Christ, and then who faltered and left the path. Right at the end, even while still grasping his own disbelief and in declining health with death impending, he was still "attached" to Jesus, to the person of Jesus from whom he could not truly separate.

I don't know how that ended for Charles Templeton, but that book was published 6+ years ago so he would surely have died by now.

Who knows what will happen to your friend, and how Jesus will remain involved with him? I don't know, but that little scene sure made an impact on me - how Jesus did not let go of Charles Templeton even when he let go of Him.

Judah wrote:FFC, I was quite moved by the "Introduction: The Challenge of Faith" written by Lee Strobel in his book "The Case for faith" where he writes an account of his meeting with the elderly Charles Templeton who had once been a close companion and preaching colleague of evangelist Billy Graham.
Templeton had lost his faith and become agnostic. Strobel interviews him when Templeton is dying, and is showing signs of Alzheimer's disease. After saying how he had come to lose his faith, Templeton then changed the entire tone of the interview when he became emotional and uttered words Strobel never expected to hear - "And if I may put it this way," he said as his voice began to crack, "I...miss...him!" Then Templeton wept openly. He was talking of Jesus.

That scene has often stuck in my mind - that of a man who was a strong evangelical Christian leading others to Christ, and then who faltered and left the path. Right at the end, even while still grasping his own disbelief and in declining health with death impending, he was still "attached" to Jesus, to the person of Jesus from whom he could not truly separate.

I don't know how that ended for Charles Templeton, but that book was published 6+ years ago so he would surely have died by now.

Who knows what will happen to your friend, and how Jesus will remain involved with him? I don't know, but that little scene sure made an impact on me - how Jesus did not let go of Charles Templeton even when he let go of Him.

Hi Judah,
I remember that interview between Strobel and Templeton and was moved as well. It just baffels me that someone could have a relationship with Jesus and learn so much and then depart from Him over seemingly insurmountable "contradictions" and "errors".

FFC wrote:I was telling our friend Byblos how I stumbled across a website called http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/ Questioning: an examination of christian belief. Unbeknownst to me, it turns out that he is an old friend of mine who periodically attends my church with his wife, and about twenty years ago he was very active in serving Christ in many areas in the church. I knew him from our singles group. you can probably tell from my post that we had fallen out of touch.

Now as it turns out he has de-converted from evangelical Christianity and religion in general. If you check out his site you'll see that he systematically dismantles all of orthodox christianity beliefs in a very polite and civil way.

I'm extremely saddened and astounded by this because I was sure that he was a christian. He even asserts that he was but through careful questioning and investigation over a time he came to the conclusion that none of it is valid.

Has anybody heard of anything like this before? What do you say to someone like this?

I have just completed reading the link you gave and don't see any problem with it. All it does is to question the validity of certain things in the Bible. This is healthy. For him it may have resulted in a loss of faith, however for others it may not. Not to ask questions but to take something on face value as being fact is not. Many Christians take things on face value unfortunately by reading the Bible and believing that it is so correct it can not even be questioned. I myself have met countless Christians, who when I ask about the other sides of many stories in the Bible they tell me there is no other side, that the Bible is the worlds history. Is it, and how do they know? To me the Bible is a part of human history, but there are other histories too.

I find though that it seems that if someone even begins to question the Bible, Christians do either two things. They may become offended that the person is questioning the Holy Book, or they become saddened at their lack and loss of faith. Maybe they should calmly sit with the person and listen to what they are saying. These people do have a valid point that the Bible does seem to have some inconsistencies and many contradictions. It is at this point that a Christian needs to go through these issues with them, but leave the final choice up to them to decide.

I once had a lengthy conversation regarding the validity of the Bible with an Agnostic friend of mine. Many Christians believe that an agnostic person is one that absolutely does not believe in God at all, but is an atheist trying to say that Gods existence cant even be proved. Nothing can be further from the truth. My friend raised many inconsistencies in the Bible. HE asked me how do I know God actually exists, and is it because I had read it in a book, namely the Bible. At one point he asked the question: "How do I know that the Bible is the word of God." These questions floored me because I had never really thought before about why I believed in what I do. I had never considered whether the Bible was accurately translated or anything like that. I discussed this with other Christians and was told of course it was because they had learned scholars translate it. Later when having another conversation with my friend he raised the point about how do I know the scholars are right. He had a valid point. The fact is I don't know. After a while I said to him that I thought that he didn't believe in God anyway. He told me this was not so, that he only believed that the existence of God could not be proven beyond any doubt in this day and age because we do not have the means to do so. He stated how he was not prepared to believe soley on the basis of the words of a book, nor was he prepared to state categorically like the atheist does that God does not. He told me if I am to believe in what I do to make sure I do because I have proof for myself. Not to let people tell me to believe because they do, not to believe because I read it in a book, but to believe because deep in my heart it is something I know has been proven to be the truth.

Maybe my conversation with my friend might be of help to you. It could be that your friend you speak about felt so suffocated by the Church and Christianity in some way that he started to look for valid reasons to disassociate himself from it. This may have been how he came to discover these contradictions. You say that he was once very active within the Church. It may have been to the point that it was his whole life. If this is so, then it is obvious why things have come to what they have. There was no balance in life for him if this was the case. There needs to be otherwise the Church becomes similar to a cult and that is the last thing it is meant to be.

FFC wrote:I'm extremely saddened and astounded by this because I was sure that he was a christian. He even asserts that he was but through careful questioning and investigation over a time he came to the conclusion that none of it is valid.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong here, but you seem to imply by this statement that you now believe that he never was a believer at all. Why?

People can lose their faith. That doesn't change the fact that God has still saved them by grace (cf. 2 Tim 2:13). Contrary to popular belief, we are not guaranteed to persevere in faith and good works until the end. But let's concede for a moment the argument that we are. Both you and this guy were "sure" he was truly a Christian at one time in the past. So, his apostasy proves he never was, according to popular theology.

Problem: how do you, or I, or anyone, "know" that we are really saved if in ten years we could fall away, proving our "sureness" now is just self-deception???

I have a friend that this same thing happened to. He's something of a deist now. Still saved, still heavenbound. He will be judged harshly at the Bema Seat. He will receive no heavenly rewards. He will not hear "well done my good and faithful servant." But let's not make his, or your friend's, or anyone's salvation dependant on their continued belief.

As far as what to say? Nothing. Heb. 6 tells us that he can't be renewed to repentance. Not by human effort anyway. The "field" will have to be "burned." Divine judgment may bring him back to the fold; it may not. But it's between him and God now. Just pray for him and be there.

God bless

Jac, welcome back...

I don't believe God's elect can lose their faith. When you are really convinced of something (viz., that Jesus has forgiven your sins), how will you stop believing it?

We know we are saved by the promises that whoever believes in Jesus Christ shall be saved, and by the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit.

As Sharon at Pyromaniacs said: 'Christ's indwelling Spirit gives assurance; works confirm it; personal examination finalizes it; confession that Jesus is Savior AND Lord proclaims it!'

Haha, thank Turgy, but I'm unfortunately not "back" per se. My studies have gotten really, really heavy, and they will be even worse next semester. I'll be taking Greek IV, Hebrew I, and teaching Greek I. Besides that, I'm teaching one to two Bible studies a week . . . who needs sleep, right?!?

Anyway, I appreciate your beliefs on this. That's why I said "contrary to popular opinion." But I just think the doctrine of the final perseverence of the saints is flat wrong. Of course, I don't believe regeneration precedes faith, either, and to the best of my knowledge, neither does FFC. You can, of course, reject Calvin's model of regeneration and still believe in Perseverence, but I think you, as an honest Calvinist, can see why that position doesn't have nearly the same logical support as your own does.

Finally, I don't accept the notion that "Christ's indwelling Spirit gives us assurance." That idea is based on Rom. 8:16, which I have dealt with somewhere on these boards. I take the object of the Spirit's witness to be God rather than to us. For the record, the Greek provides prima facie evidence in full support of my view. It is true that many solid exegetes, Daniel Wallace not the least among them, believe they have gotten around that fact. I just don't find their arguments convincing. If I can provide a quote from the highly respect Dr. Wallace:

Wallace wrote:In sum, Rom. 8:16 seems to be secure as a text in which the believer's assurance of salvation is based on the inner witness of the Spirit. The implications for this for one's soteriology are profound: The object data, as helpful as they are, cannot by themselves provide assurance of salvaiton; the believer also needs (and receives!) an existential, ongoing encounter with God's Spirit in order to gain that familial comfort.

That's found in his Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics (Zondervan, '96), p. 161. So take John 6:47. Jesus says, "Whoever believes has everlasting life." What Wallace is saying here is that even given the reality of this promise, I cannot know that I have believed unless I have "the inner witness of the Spirit." I'm sure you can see how I object on that being a painfully unstable promise of assurance. FFC's friend is a good demonstration of that. And as an aside, I certainly hope you aren't looking to your works to confirm the reality of your faith. Calvin rejected that idea, and more importantly, so did Jesus (Matt. 7:21-23).

So, no, I see no Scripture anywhere that suggests that a believer is guaranteed to persevere in faith and good works. In fact, I see just the opposite. Look at the parable of the four soils (NOT THE FOUR "SEEDS") in Luke 8:4-18, and pay special attention to vv. 12 and 13. Note the use of the word "believe" there.

Anyway, again, I just say we have to pray for our fallen friends and be there for them when we can. Above all, we should guard our own faith carefully. Apostasy is never more than one tragedy away.

God bless

I had recommended that FFC invite his friend over to our site to tell his story as to why he 'de-converted'. Not so much so we can re-convert him back but perhaps for us to learn and gain some insight so we can help others who are going through a similar process (and maybe prevent it from happening to someone else?).

In any case, Turgy, Jac, always a pleasure reading your insights.

John.

Jac3510 wrote:

FFC wrote:I'm extremely saddened and astounded by this because I was sure that he was a christian. He even asserts that he was but through careful questioning and investigation over a time he came to the conclusion that none of it is valid.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong here, but you seem to imply by this statement that you now believe that he never was a believer at all. Why?

People can lose their faith. That doesn't change the fact that God has still saved them by grace (cf. 2 Tim 2:13). Contrary to popular belief, we are not guaranteed to persevere in faith and good works until the end. But let's concede for a moment the argument that we are. Both you and this guy were "sure" he was truly a Christian at one time in the past. So, his apostasy proves he never was, according to popular theology.

Problem: how do you, or I, or anyone, "know" that we are really saved if in ten years we could fall away, proving our "sureness" now is just self-deception???

I have a friend that this same thing happened to. He's something of a deist now. Still saved, still heavenbound. He will be judged harshly at the Bema Seat. He will receive no heavenly rewards. He will not hear "well done my good and faithful servant." But let's not make his, or your friend's, or anyone's salvation dependant on their continued belief.

As far as what to say? Nothing. Heb. 6 tells us that he can't be renewed to repentance. Not by human effort anyway. The "field" will have to be "burned." Divine judgment may bring him back to the fold; it may not. But it's between him and God now. Just pray for him and be there.

God bless

Hi Jac,
I see what you mean. I guess I meant to say I thought he was a genuine Christian who believed in Christ alone for everlasting life. If he did then I know he is still saved. It is just so hard for me to imagine myself learning that everything I have ever believed is wrong and walking away from my Savior. In my friends case he is not only walking away but actively spreading his gospel of humanism and free thinking mostly to those who are on the fence.

Michelle wrote:Maybe my conversation with my friend might be of help to you. It could be that your friend you speak about felt so suffocated by the Church and Christianity in some way that he started to look for valid reasons to disassociate himself from it. This may have been how he came to discover these contradictions. You say that he was once very active within the Church. It may have been to the point that it was his whole life. If this is so, then it is obvious why things have come to what they have. There was no balance in life for him if this was the case. There needs to be otherwise the Church becomes similar to a cult and that is the last thing it is meant to be.

Michelle, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. It seems like legalism, blind faith, and much service were big factors in my friends beginning journey in Christ. As always these things cause great harm to the body of Christ. I wonder if he ever learned what grace really is.

BTW, I do agree that honestly examining what you believe is necessary. But examining your motives behind all of that examining is crucial.

FFC wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

FFC wrote:I'm extremely saddened and astounded by this because I was sure that he was a christian. He even asserts that he was but through careful questioning and investigation over a time he came to the conclusion that none of it is valid.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong here, but you seem to imply by this statement that you now believe that he never was a believer at all. Why?

People can lose their faith. That doesn't change the fact that God has still saved them by grace (cf. 2 Tim 2:13). Contrary to popular belief, we are not guaranteed to persevere in faith and good works until the end. But let's concede for a moment the argument that we are. Both you and this guy were "sure" he was truly a Christian at one time in the past. So, his apostasy proves he never was, according to popular theology.

Problem: how do you, or I, or anyone, "know" that we are really saved if in ten years we could fall away, proving our "sureness" now is just self-deception???

I have a friend that this same thing happened to. He's something of a deist now. Still saved, still heavenbound. He will be judged harshly at the Bema Seat. He will receive no heavenly rewards. He will not hear "well done my good and faithful servant." But let's not make his, or your friend's, or anyone's salvation dependant on their continued belief.

As far as what to say? Nothing. Heb. 6 tells us that he can't be renewed to repentance. Not by human effort anyway. The "field" will have to be "burned." Divine judgment may bring him back to the fold; it may not. But it's between him and God now. Just pray for him and be there.

God bless

Hi Jac,
I see what you mean. I guess I meant to say I thought he was a genuine Christian who believed in Christ alone for everlasting life. If he did then I know he is still saved. It is just so hard for me to imagine myself learning that everything I have ever believed is wrong and walking away from my Savior. In my friends case he is not only walking away but actively spreading his gospel of humanism and free thinking mostly to those who are on the fence.

I understand what you are saying Jac. I have come to the conclusion that if none of this is true -then it really should be, because I cannot think of life making sense otherwise. It is the only thing that gives us purpose - so if I have doubts I fall back on my "hope" that it is true and I will work through my doubts eventually. The alternative for me now is no longer an option. If i found out that none of Christianityis true now, i really don't think I would be able to cope with that.

God Bless

Silvertusk

Silvertusk wrote:I understand what you are saying Jac. I have come to the conclusion that if none of this is true -then it really should be, because I cannot think of life making sense otherwise. It is the only thing that gives us purpose - so if I have doubts I fall back on my "hope" that it is true and I will work through my doubts eventually. The alternative for me now is no longer an option. If i found out that none of Christianityis true now, i really don't think I would be able to cope with that.

Well put, Silvertusk. I feel the same way. I'm not a bible scholar, or an expert in hermeneutics or apologetics...not even close , but I believe that God sent Jesus to die on the cross for me to take away my sins and give me eternal life. I believe that with all of my heart apart from intellectual endeavors. When facts confirm what I already believe I'm thrilled, but a few rough times in Christ, or some so called errors and contradictions are not enough for me to throw it all away. I have experienced God's peace and presence in my darkest times and I know that that reassurance didn't come from my mind because at times like that my natural inclination is to wallow in self=pity. God has always been with me when I cried out to him. Even when my feelings let me down I sensed in my heart that He was there. True faith is not contingent on intellectual belief, sometimes it's just believing because you know that you know...and that knowing comes directly from God.

FFC wrote:

Michelle wrote:Maybe my conversation with my friend might be of help to you. It could be that your friend you speak about felt so suffocated by the Church and Christianity in some way that he started to look for valid reasons to disassociate himself from it. This may have been how he came to discover these contradictions. You say that he was once very active within the Church. It may have been to the point that it was his whole life. If this is so, then it is obvious why things have come to what they have. There was no balance in life for him if this was the case. There needs to be otherwise the Church becomes similar to a cult and that is the last thing it is meant to be.

Michelle, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. It seems like legalism, blind faith, and much service were big factors in my friends beginning journey in Christ. As always these things cause great harm to the body of Christ. I wonder if he ever learned what grace really is.

BTW, I do agree that honestly examining what you believe is necessary. But examining your motives behind all of that examining is crucial.

I think it is vital that there is a balance between living our life for the Church, living it for society and ourselves too. It seems as if your friend woke up one day and felt that there was more to his life than the Church. I think this happens more often than we care to admit to a lot of people. To try and make sense of what is occurring some people try and find fault with the Bible in the hope that by doing so it will give them the answers to why they suddenly feel the way they do. They pick out things in a justification for leaving the Church and belief behind them. Many often feel suffocated by the Church. One only has to look around the many web sites about atheism and view the numerous posts from people who have left the Church.

All these people (including your friend) have a few things in common. First, they all seemed to have left the Church because they felt what they were being taught was "rubbish". Why they felt it they were being taught rubbish was because they feel the Bible contradicts valid scientific opinion. Much of what was written in the Bible cant be true in their eyes so therefore the whole religion itself must be rubbish. They unfortunately look at the Bible through the eyes of modern man living in an advanced political and scientific society as if it were just a history book. It becomes rubbish to them because of this.

The second thing that I noticed with these posts is that they did not have a clear understanding of they Bible. This is something that is very common right across all the Christian faiths, and even Christians themselves sometimes become confused about the interpretation of the Bible. This lack of understanding is further attentuated when there are contradictions throughout it. The only thing that I can say here is we are very fortunate we have scholars to assist us, because there are things in the Bible that do seem to contradict each other. Much of the problem people have when they read the Bible is that they think that it has to be read cover to cover.

Last, I found that there were also a combination of parental authority problems and Church indoctrinization that were contributing factors. Both were either too strict (with expectations and rules) or isolated the person away from mainstream society. This can be a big problem with many parents in that they become so strict that they will not allow their children to have any life at all outside the Church and Christianity. Many times they send their children to Christian schools in the hope that it will keep them away from the evils of society. I have met quite a few parents like that over the years. Their love actually is suffocating their children and does nothing to protect them in the future. There is nothing wrong with trying to install Christian values but this should not be to the detriment of everything else.
As for the problem with the Church, I found that sometimes there are different faiths that will not allow their members to associate with other people than members of their own Church. Or else they are so strict with what they teach it is almost as if they want the congregation to be perfect. Being human it is no wonder if a Church is like this people leave it. The other problem with the Church I found people saying was the hypocrisy. I have to agree with that. There are so many Churches around that have forgotten the message of Christ and concentrate on building bigger and better buildings. As an example, quite some time ago a person who is from a different faith to me was remarking about how pleased he was that his Church was able to build a new Church in Melbourne. I said I was pleased that his Church was able to do that. He then went on to say that his Church raised $6.million for it in less than six months. Although I said nothing the first thing that went through my mind was the comment Jesus said when the disciples were remarking about the splender of the temple. He then went on to boast how his Church was spending thousands helping people in need. This is a perfect example of hypocrisy at work. The building itself was important, but doing Gods work wasn't.


With your friend remember the prodigal son in the Bible. He may still come back. You dont know the future, and maybe God himself is allowing this to happen to teach him something.

Michelle wrote:They unfortunately look at the Bible through the eyes of modern man living in an advanced political and scientific society as if it were just a history book. It becomes rubbish to them because of this.

So the question is, is the problem their interpretation or their knowledge?
The Bible is a history book, with the exception of the poetic, doctrinal and prophetic parts (the last category became history ).
I'm not quite sure in what sense the first chapters of Genesis are to be understood, but I think it's vital to assert that Adam was historical. And all the other characters -- Abraham, Jacob, Moses, the Pharaoh, Joshua, you name 'em -- were probably historical too. I see no reason to think they weren't.

I agreed with the rest of your post. Very nicely written too.

Thanks Michelle,
That was a very well though out post. You seem to have a good handle on the situation.

I also have been thinking of the Prodigal son passage. I know that God could bring him back, but I don't believe he will force him. It seems like it will take a great disillusionment of his current worldview at this point.