I need some lessons in the Trinity

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Christian2
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I need some lessons in the Trinity

Post by Christian2 »

It has always been enough for me to know that there is only one God and that God's Word incarnated the human body of Jesus about 2,000 years ago and God's Holy Spirit works in the world today.

But, some of the finer points are confusing to me. For instance,

I saw this statement on another site:

Jesus had always existed. He was not created. Rather, He was the creator. As the creator of time, at one point He chose to enter time, and the human side of His nature began.

To my way of thinking Jesus was created. By that I mean the human Jesus. I believe that it is God's Word that was not created and is eternal, has always existed and is the creator.

So, at some point in time God's Word became incarnated in the created human body of Jesus.

Am I wrong? Am I a trinitarian heretic? :lol:
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Byblos
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Re: I need some lessons in the Trinity

Post by Byblos »

Christian2 wrote:It has always been enough for me to know that there is only one God and that God's Word incarnated the human body of Jesus about 2,000 years ago and God's Holy Spirit works in the world today.

But, some of the finer points are confusing to me. For instance,

I saw this statement on another site:

Jesus had always existed. He was not created. Rather, He was the creator. As the creator of time, at one point He chose to enter time, and the human side of His nature began.

To my way of thinking Jesus was created. By that I mean the human Jesus. I believe that it is God's Word that was not created and is eternal, has always existed and is the creator.

So, at some point in time God's Word became incarnated in the created human body of Jesus.

Am I wrong? Am I a trinitarian heretic? :lol:
You are not a trinitarian heretic C2. That's pretty much how I understand it too. I don't think of Jesus (the physical) as always existing. I think that's evident by the fact that we celebrate his birth. By virtue of the hypostatic union, God incarnate has 2 sides, the physical that was born (created) 2,000 years ago, and the eternel (God's Word and the creator of all) united with the physical.

Byblos.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Christian2
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Re: I need some lessons in the Trinity

Post by Christian2 »

Byblos wrote:
Christian2 wrote:It has always been enough for me to know that there is only one God and that God's Word incarnated the human body of Jesus about 2,000 years ago and God's Holy Spirit works in the world today.

But, some of the finer points are confusing to me. For instance,

I saw this statement on another site:

Jesus had always existed. He was not created. Rather, He was the creator. As the creator of time, at one point He chose to enter time, and the human side of His nature began.

To my way of thinking Jesus was created. By that I mean the human Jesus. I believe that it is God's Word that was not created and is eternal, has always existed and is the creator.

So, at some point in time God's Word became incarnated in the created human body of Jesus.

Am I wrong? Am I a trinitarian heretic? :lol:
You are not a trinitarian heretic C2. That's pretty much how I understand it too. I don't think of Jesus (the physical) as always existing. I think that's evident by the fact that we celebrate his birth. By virtue of the hypostatic union, God incarnate has 2 sides, the physical that was born (created) 2,000 years ago, and the eternel (God's Word and the creator of all) united with the physical.

Byblos.
Thank you Byblos.

I put this question on another site and I am getting beat up.

You are making me feel better.

Hopefully I will get some other responses.
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Post by aYs »

see, I think God is much bigger than the father, son, and the holy spirit. I think the son aspect of the equation is how God entered into the creation. It's like he stuck his hand into this existance as "Jesus." It's all symbolism so we can understand the vastness of what's going on. Nothing needs to be born in eternity. It's forever. Fathers and sons are the result of this temporary realm. This was needed in order for our souls to be born before they passed into the eternal kingdom of God.

I try not to get caught up into the details. It's like a child trying to understand a carborator on a vehicle. All the child needs to know is that a vehicle gets you from point A to point B. Heck, he doesn't even need to know that because he can't even drive. He just needs to let his dad worry about the car. He'll never be able to comprehend all the inner-workings of the machine. I think it's a similar scenario with us. Our comprehension is on such a smaller and different plane than God's because of our temporary-existance limitations. I'm sure eternity is much much larger than we can even begin to not even comprehend.. =P
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Judah
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Post by Judah »

I think you have a good point, aYs, in as much what God has done for us, and the detail of how it all works, is certainly rather mind boggling - and not understanding everything does not preclude us from salvation.
However, we are to worship God with our minds and also to be prepared to give aswers to those who ask us about our Faith.
When folk have genuine questions, it is good to be able to provide answers that help steer them toward the truth about God. Good answers that satisfy a seeker's questions and help remove doubts may well lead him to Christ. We need to know for ourselves as well, so we can be good apologists for our beliefs.

C2, the Nicene Creed puts it this way:
{clip} ... We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
Source

I think the understanding you seek is that of the hypostatic union that Byblos mentions. Here is some more on the subject.
Hope this helps you avoid any bruises! :)
Christian2
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Post by Christian2 »

Judah,

You are right. We Christians have to be able to explain the Trinity, etc. because others ask us. Saying something like, "It is all a mystery" is not good enough.

This is an answer that I received on another site:

___________

The confusion lies in the sloppy and imprecise use of theological terminology.

Jesus of Nazareth is the name of the human incarnation of the Son. The Son is Eternal as YHWH but only temporal as Jesus of Nazareth. In other words, the Son as YHWH has no begining but the Son as Jesus of Nazareth has a definite start point in history but will have no end point in history. The Son exists Eternally as YHWH but only everlastingly as Jesus of Nazareth.

Because people don't bother to think through their theology and so articulate it in a very sloppy (and totally wrong) way everyone gets confused.

Jesus of Nazareth (i.e. the human incarnation) is not eternal but the One who incarnated (i.e. the Person of the Son) is Eternal.

The other point that I need to make is that the Incarnation is not simply the 'manufacture of a human body for a Divine Person ('God in a gorrilla suit')'. That is not what is meant by the Incarnation. By means of the Incarnation the Son has been able to become an authentic human being (not just 'climb into' a human body) and now has two natures, a Divine and a human nature. This means that the Son simultaneously exists as both the Eternal Divine Creator and a temporal human creature and all the things that he is able to achieve by menas of either nature can be attributed to the ONE Person who is TWO natures. Therefore the Messiah is both the Divine Creator (though not by means of His human nature) and the atoning 'Lamb of God' who takes away the sin of the world (though not by means of His Divine Nature). Because the Messiah is both Infinite and finite his atoning sacrificial death upon the cross is of Infinite worth in atoning for the sin of the world (1Jn.2:2).

____________
:)
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Judah
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Post by Judah »

Yep, I'll buy that, C2! :)
(But those belonging to quite a few cults will not). :(
Now I wonder how the Muslims will go with that...?
It really is important to be able to explain things clearly, or as clearly as we can. 8)
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Post by Silvertusk »

That is really good explanation.

However - where does the holy spirit fit in with it all.

God Bless

Silvertusk
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Judah
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Post by Judah »

Silvertusk wrote:That is really good explanation.

However - where does the holy spirit fit in with it all.

God Bless

Silvertusk
Well....

The Nicene Creed goes on to say:
{clip} ... We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son.
A separate entity/person of the same God substance but with another role to play - as with the wind that blows here and there, to quicken the conscience, our own spirits, to convict of sin and to strengthen us in resisting temptation.
I am sure there is more, but it is too late for me tonight. 8)
Christian2
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Post by Christian2 »

Judah wrote:Yep, I'll buy that, C2! :)
(But those belonging to quite a few cults will not). :(
Now I wonder how the Muslims will go with that...?
It really is important to be able to explain things clearly, or as clearly as we can. 8)
Ah, Judah, you know me well. I get Trinity questions all the time from the Muslims and I usually answer in the simpliest way. That's not good enough for some of the more intelligent ones.

That is why it is imperative that I have a more indepth answer that makes sense.

The cults do not buy it as I am finding out. Seems my question on the other site has started a brawl. LOL
Christian2
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Post by Christian2 »

Judah wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:That is really good explanation.

However - where does the holy spirit fit in with it all.

God Bless

Silvertusk
Well....

The Nicene Creed goes on to say:
{clip} ... We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son.
A separate entity/person of the same God substance but with another role to play - as with the wind that blows here and there, to quicken the conscience, our own spirits, to convict of sin and to strengthen us in resisting temptation.
I am sure there is more, but it is too late for me tonight. 8)
Judah, I think we have to be careful about the terms we use. If we say a "separate entity" we give the impression of another Being. It is one Being, in three "persons." Not persons as in human beings, but of the same substance in the same Being.

This isn't easy, is it?
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