Evidence for God from Science

Sorry if this topic has been beaten and bloodied, but I'd like to revive it again since I've never seen it discussed on this board in any depth. I would like to point your attention to http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=15; and to http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=15;

I would also like to state that I have spoken evil to God before I was a Christian and possibly even when I was a Christian (not sure on that one). By speaking evil to God, you are also speaking evil to the Holy Spirit since you are speaking evil to every part of the Trinity by speaking evil to God - the Trinity God. According to Young's Literal, I can only get the impression that I'm not saved even though I believe in God and in Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God. Either that is the case, or a lack of forgiveness does not also imply a lack of saving grace. One can not forgive but still save, but I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts on this is.

I really hate to try to twist God's words to say what I want them to say as opposed to what they really say. The only thing is - I am still uncertain of what the original translation says or implies. I have looked at Young's LITERAL, but I do not know if it is properly translated.

Another thing I should point out. I've been thinking about this concern for quite a while now. I've read some articles on other web pages after doing searches on the internet. Some articles are interesting, but they have all been useless in the end. I'm not sure I agree with their logic. This isn't a question of God's existence or a question of love. This is a question of his willingness to save me and others like me. I would really like to learn the truth even if it isn't exactly what I want. I'm just tired of wondering.

One particular article had stated that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and the rejecting of God's gift of salvation are one and the same. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin and rejecting of God's gift of salvation is an unforgivable sin. However, there can only be one unforgivable sin, so these two must be that same sin. This logic is the closest I've come to accepting.

However, when the pharisees say that Christ has an evil spirit in him, they are calling the Holy Spirit evil. This was not their intention, but they were still blaspheming the Holy Spirit by speaking evil of it. Does it really have to be speaking, since you don't have to verbally reject God to go to hell? How does the word speaking translate? So were the pharisees really blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and if so would God hold it against them since they may've not known what they were doing and therefore be free from the law? Or were the pharisees not blaspheming the Holy Spirit (even though the Bible literally says that it must be SPEAKING EVIL TO - which they did do) but only Christ?

I just thought of something more. I don't think that rejecting God's gift of salvation is an unforgivable sin. It is rejecting God's remedy for our sin-situation. We have already sinned, so rejecting God's salvation makes us bear our own penalties for our sins. And our sins are unforgivable then if we reject God's forgiveness.

So the only unforgivable sin must be something different than rejecting God's gift of salvation. So there is only one unforgivable sin but two paths to hell. Now what is this unforgivable sin? It is translated as blasphemy in some or most Bibles today. If Young's Literal is right, then the blasphemy is actually speaking evil to the Holy Spirit. If you speak evil to God, then you are speaking evil to the Holy Spirit as well since the Holy Spirit is part of God and/or is God. However, speaking evil of God and speaking evil to God can be two different things in my opinion.

Speaking evil TO God could be something like, "F&#@* you!" Speaking evil OF God could be something like, "You aren't any different than Satan!"

What gets me, though, is that I think the Bible teaches that words come from one's heart. So shouldn't the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit be a matter of the heart rather than a matter of words? I know that a stray thought may slip and you may blaspheme the Holy Spirit in your heart, but if you verbally choose to blaspheme the Holy Spirit it shows that you meant the blasphemy rather than having it be on accident.

I'm also wondering about one's heart being related to their thoughts or their emotions. Aside from the obvious clinical questions this involves, where do the two meet metaphorically? Am I confusing any of you yet? I'm already confused so I can't manage to possibly confuse myself further.

Perhaps something in your heart means that it is also in your will. Perhaps something in your mind means that it may not be necessarily what you will or what you intend but rather whatever comes into your mind. Not every one of us says everything that comes to mind; not every one of us like the thoughts that slip our minds or meditate on the thoughts in our minds and allow them to affect our heart. Is it possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in your heart without saying it aloud and still be forgiven? Anyone want to clarify this mess I've tangled myself in?

Is there a connection between the soul and the heart? Is there a connection between the heart and the mind? Is there a connection between the soul, the heart, and the mind?

I do not think I can answer any of your deep philisophical question. They are definitely things to consider. But, I had similar questions to my pastor and he responded that if you are worried that much about having blasphemed the Holy Spirit, you have not done it. Someone that has blasphemed the Holy Spirit no longer cares whether he has or has not. It is of absolutely no concern to the poor soul.

Luke 12:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven.

My thoughts on this are that while Jesus walked this earth one of his main things was to reveal the Father through his words and miracles in order to reach those who would believe. The Holy Spirit was the vehicle in which this was accomplished. To attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil is only unforgivable in that it rejects the free gift of salvation. It only makes sense that it can't be forgiven. It's like refusing to grab the lifeline when you are drowning in the ocean...

Belief=salvation
non belief=unforgiveness

The first thing to understand is the concept of accountability. Demons can never be forgiven because they are fallen angels. They were once angels that lived with God, they fully knew his glory, they fully knew right from wrong, and they fully knew the consequences, so are fully accountable for their actions. At the same time though, there's no reason that they even want to be forgiven, because they did fully know what they were doing, and if they didn't want the consequences they wouldn't have followed Satan in the rebellion against God.

As humans, we do have some concept of right and wrong, which is why we are accountable for our actions, but since we haven't seen the full extent of God's glory we can't fully comprehend the consequences of our actions. Because of this, God himself came to pay the punishment for sins so that we would have a chance to be with him in Heaven. We are, in effect, claiming ignorance, like Jesus talks about in John 9:39-41:

John 9:39-41 (New Living Translation) wrote: 39 Then Jesus told him, "I have come to judge the world. I have come to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind."
40 The Pharisees who were standing there heard him and asked, "Are you saying we are blind?"
41 "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.

The Pharisees thought they were moral and perfect citizens, and that they hadn't done anything wrong, that they had “earned” Heaven. They failed to realize that even if they were more righteous than other people, they were still nowhere near the righteousness of God. They saw Jesus perform his various miracles, proving he was from God, but yet when he told them they needed to change they refused to and instead called him demon possessed, like in Mark 3:1-6, 22-30:

Mark 3:1-6 (New Living Translation) wrote: 1 Jesus went into the synagogue again and noticed a man with a deformed hand.
2 Since it was the Sabbath, Jesus' enemies watched him closely. Would he heal the man's hand on the Sabbath? If he did, they planned to condemn him.
3 Jesus said to the man, "Come and stand in front of everyone."
4 Then he turned to his critics and asked, "Is it legal to do good deeds on the Sabbath, or is it a day for doing harm? Is this a day to save life or to destroy it?" But they wouldn't answer him.
5 He looked around at them angrily, because he was deeply disturbed by their hard hearts. Then he said to the man, "Reach out your hand." The man reached out his hand, and it became normal again!
6 At once the Pharisees went away and met with the supporters of Herod to discuss plans for killing Jesus.

Then later the some teachers came back and claimed Jesus was possessed by a demon:

Mark 3:22-30 (New Living Translation) wrote: 22 But the teachers of religious law who had arrived from Jerusalem said, "He's possessed by Satan, the prince of demons. That's where he gets the power to cast out demons."
23 Jesus called them over and said to them by way of illustration, "How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 A kingdom at war with itself will collapse.
25 A home divided against itself is doomed.
26 And if Satan is fighting against himself, how can he stand? He would never survive.
27 Let me illustrate this. You can't enter a strong man's house and rob him without first tying him up. Only then can his house be robbed!
28 "I assure you that any sin can be forgiven, including blasphemy;
29 but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. It is an eternal sin."
30 He told them this because they were saying he had an evil spirit.

The first thing to notice is that they fully acknowledged that Jesus had supernatural power and that he was indeed healing people and casting out demons. They saw that he had the power and authority of God but they didn't care. They wanted to be the leaders of the church, and since said that he was, they wanted him dead out of their own selfishness.

I can say with 100% certainty that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit isn't something that you can accidentally do because of Paul. Before his vision of Jesus, he was about as anti-Jesus as anyone could be, seeking out Christians and killing them, but he turned into one of the most influential people in the early Christian movement once he truly knew who God was. Paul fully acknowledged his previous ignorance and is forgiven because of it. Some people argue that blasphemy against the holy spirit isn't even possible at all now that Jesus is in Heaven, but I would have to say that it is possible to do so if it is done purposely. I study the Bible often and that I know more about God than most people, but if I were to suddenly decide to renounce my faith and work against God like Paul did before his conversion, I don't think I could ever be forgiven. I say this because I can't think of any reason I would do such a thing, in fact, I am frighten to even think about doing such a thing. I know that God is loving and merciful to all those who seek him, but those who oppose him will be crushed, and that's not something I want to happen to me, so if I were to ever do so I would being doing so with full knowledge that I would be punished.

Basically, what it comes down to is knowing God but then purposely defying him. So if you're worried about having blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, then you haven't. You may have said some bad things about the concept of god, or even God himself, but by admitting you were wrong and claiming that you were blind you can be forgiven. If you had blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, then, like the demons, you would have done so on purpose and you wouldn't care at all about forgiveness.

Welcome to the forum, Vassal. You write and teach things well.

There are some folk who are troubled by obessional thought processes, or may even have a fully developed OC (obsessive-compulsive) disorder whereby they cannot seem to help themselves from "tempting fate" by thinking or saying daringly evil things of God. These things are said with a provocative intent, an attitude of "don't care" or even "I dare you, God!" and yet are very disturbing to the person concerned.

This question has come up before where someone with an OC disorder was greatly troubled by these things. It was as though he was deliberately trying to provoke God through blasphemy, and then he would be extremely anxious in case God actually would punish him for doing so.

If there is any quality of obsessiveness in this action, then I think we are talking about something quite different. Together with the obsessiveness, there is also great anxiety and fear which can be regarded as the real concern of the sufferer. This is a state of mind that goes beyond the control of the sufferer, and as such, the degree of responsibility and accountablilty is diminished. It must be remembered that God is merciful. He is incredibly understanding and compassionate. He is also supremely just. He knows us each inside out, and he knows what is going on in these kind of circumstances.

Packrat, if perchance any of this is true for you, then please know that God does understand all this. If this is possibly what you are dealing with, then be reassured that God will separate out that which is true intent and that which is a product of a mental disturbance, and He will take all such things into account.

YLTYLT wrote:But, I had similar questions to my pastor and he responded that if you are worried that much about having blasphemed the Holy Spirit, you have not done it. Someone that has blasphemed the Holy Spirit no longer cares whether he has or has not. It is of absolutely no concern to the poor soul.

I'm not quite certain of that. I could blaspheme God, not worry about it, and then be scared to death and worry all I wanted about it at the time of judgment. I've heard this argument too, but I don't agree with it's reasoning.

FFC wrote:To attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil is only unforgivable in that it rejects the free gift of salvation. It only makes sense that it can't be forgiven. It's like refusing to grab the lifeline when you are drowning in the ocean...

I've heard this argument too, but it looks like you can still speak a blasphemy to God without trying to reject his gift of salvation. I'm not a professional actor, but if I were and I blasphemed the Holy Spirit without meaning it, it still appears to me by Christ's testimony that I would be doomed to hell afterward no matter what. Most if not all Bibles imply that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is verbal. I believe that it is verbal in so much as that one's words are outpourings of their heart. Just as Christ is the Word of God - the fulfillment of his heart - so one's own words are the fulfillment of their heart. It seems reasonable to assume that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is moreso a matter of the heart made manifest in one's words rather than simply speaking hollow words without meaning it. But the Bible does not agree with this assumption as far as I can tell.

FFC wrote:Luke 12:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven.

My thoughts on this are that while Jesus walked this earth one of his main things was to reveal the Father through his words and miracles in order to reach those who would believe. The Holy Spirit was the vehicle in which this was accomplished. To attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil is only unforgivable in that it rejects the free gift of salvation. It only makes sense that it can't be forgiven. It's like refusing to grab the lifeline when you are drowning in the ocean...

Belief=salvation
non belief=unforgiveness

You nailed it FFC. That's how I've always seen it. All who die in unbelief have effectively denied the Holy Spirit.

Byblos wrote:

FFC wrote:Luke 12:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven.

My thoughts on this are that while Jesus walked this earth one of his main things was to reveal the Father through his words and miracles in order to reach those who would believe. The Holy Spirit was the vehicle in which this was accomplished. To attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil is only unforgivable in that it rejects the free gift of salvation. It only makes sense that it can't be forgiven. It's like refusing to grab the lifeline when you are drowning in the ocean...

Belief=salvation
non belief=unforgiveness

You nailed it FFC. That's how I've always seen it. All who die in unbelief have effectively denied the Holy Spirit.

I reject that interpretation of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (at the moment anyway). Is rejecting God's gift of salvation for you a sin? If God is willing that none should perish, then is it going against his will? Anything that goes against his will is a sin, right? Or am I wrong? Ok, I think I just contradicted myself, and I'm starting to see how it can be a sin.

At any rate, if it were not a sin but simply a rejection of God's salvation from your sin, then that would mean that there is still an unforgivable sin and that the unforgivable sin must be something different than rejecting God's gift of salvation.

If rejecting God's gift of salvation is a sin and the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then these two must be one and the same. BUT Scripture does not state that there is only ONE unforgivable sin. Or does it?

packrat wrote:

Byblos wrote:

FFC wrote:Luke 12:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven.

My thoughts on this are that while Jesus walked this earth one of his main things was to reveal the Father through his words and miracles in order to reach those who would believe. The Holy Spirit was the vehicle in which this was accomplished. To attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil is only unforgivable in that it rejects the free gift of salvation. It only makes sense that it can't be forgiven. It's like refusing to grab the lifeline when you are drowning in the ocean...

Belief=salvation
non belief=unforgiveness

You nailed it FFC. That's how I've always seen it. All who die in unbelief have effectively denied the Holy Spirit.

I reject that interpretation of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (at the moment anyway). Is rejecting God's gift of salvation for you a sin? If God is willing that none should perish, then is it going against his will? Anything that goes against his will is a sin, right? Or am I wrong? Ok, I think I just contradicted myself, and I'm starting to see how it can be a sin.

At any rate, if it were not a sin but simply a rejection of God's salvation from your sin, then that would mean that there is still an unforgivable sin and that the unforgivable sin must be something different than rejecting God's gift of salvation.

If rejecting God's gift of salvation is a sin and the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then these two must be one and the same. BUT Scripture does not state that there is only ONE unforgivable sin. Or does it?

The way I see it a person has up until the moment they die to set things straight with God. What they did before is irrelevant. You could blaspheme against the Holy Spirit all you want, as long as you set it straight before you die (by believing). Of course I wouldn't recommend leaving it until then for obvious reasons.

Byblos wrote:

packrat wrote:

Byblos wrote:

FFC wrote:Luke 12:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
and every one whoever shall say a word to the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven to him, but to him who to the Holy Spirit did speak evil, it shall not be forgiven.

My thoughts on this are that while Jesus walked this earth one of his main things was to reveal the Father through his words and miracles in order to reach those who would believe. The Holy Spirit was the vehicle in which this was accomplished. To attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil is only unforgivable in that it rejects the free gift of salvation. It only makes sense that it can't be forgiven. It's like refusing to grab the lifeline when you are drowning in the ocean...

Belief=salvation
non belief=unforgiveness

You nailed it FFC. That's how I've always seen it. All who die in unbelief have effectively denied the Holy Spirit.

I reject that interpretation of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (at the moment anyway). Is rejecting God's gift of salvation for you a sin? If God is willing that none should perish, then is it going against his will? Anything that goes against his will is a sin, right? Or am I wrong? Ok, I think I just contradicted myself, and I'm starting to see how it can be a sin.

At any rate, if it were not a sin but simply a rejection of God's salvation from your sin, then that would mean that there is still an unforgivable sin and that the unforgivable sin must be something different than rejecting God's gift of salvation.

If rejecting God's gift of salvation is a sin and the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then these two must be one and the same. BUT Scripture does not state that there is only ONE unforgivable sin. Or does it?

The way I see it a person has up until the moment they die to set things straight with God. What they did before is irrelevant. You could blaspheme against the Holy Spirit all you want, as long as you set it straight before you die (by believing). Of course I wouldn't recommend leaving it until then for obvious reasons.

Thanks for the reply. But Scripture implies that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be 'set straight' by saying that it cannot be forgiven. This would mean that the sin involves a long-term choice until the very day you die, or it is a sin that you are condemned for once you commit it - whether you die at that moment or not. And since the Bible seems to show that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can be committed by speaking ill words against the Holy Spirit (correct me if I'm wrong - cussing at, attributing evil to, etc.), such a sin is immediate and must also bestow an unforgivable state upon the blasphemer once the blasphemy is spoken.

packrat wrote:Thanks for the reply.

I try.

packrat wrote:But Scripture implies that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be 'set straight' by saying that it cannot be forgiven. This would mean that the sin involves a long-term choice until the very day you die, or it is a sin that you are condemned for once you commit it - whether you die at that moment or not. And since the Bible seems to show that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can be committed by speaking ill words against the Holy Spirit (correct me if I'm wrong - cussing at, attributing evil to, etc.), such a sin is immediate and must also bestow an unforgivable state upon the blasphemer once the blasphemy is spoken.

Contrast that with John 3:16. It does not say 'Whoever believes in the Son but hasn't blasphemed against the Holy Spirit has eternal life'. It simply says Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. So what happens if you first blaspheme against the Holy Spirit then believe in the Son? According to Jesus you have eternal life.

Byblos wrote:

packrat wrote:Thanks for the reply.

I try.

packrat wrote:But Scripture implies that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be 'set straight' by saying that it cannot be forgiven. This would mean that the sin involves a long-term choice until the very day you die, or it is a sin that you are condemned for once you commit it - whether you die at that moment or not. And since the Bible seems to show that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can be committed by speaking ill words against the Holy Spirit (correct me if I'm wrong - cussing at, attributing evil to, etc.), such a sin is immediate and must also bestow an unforgivable state upon the blasphemer once the blasphemy is spoken.

Contrast that with John 3:16. It does not say 'Whoever believes in the Son but hasn't blasphemed against the Holy Spirit has eternal life'. It simply says Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. So what happens if you first blaspheme against the Holy Spirit then believe in the Son? According to Jesus you have eternal life.

You have made a very good point. I will think about your words. Once more, thanks for the reply.

Packrat,
Speaking an evil word may not be as literal as it sounds...as you said it is a heart issue. A mute person could just as easily reject Christ without saying a word.

Let me also suggest this...this particular act of "committing the unforgivable sin" may have only applied to the time that Christ walked the earth.

Remember that the Pharisees saw all the signs and miracles that Christ did in person, miracles that only God could do, and not only did they not believe He was from God but said they were the works of the devil. Sinners today don't have that advantage. We don't have Jesus doing miracles right before our eyes.

Rejecting God's provision of salvation is the only thing that can never be forgiven, but that's not to say if and when that person does believe God won't forgive him or her. My thoughts are that it is the idea of actively rejecting the works of the Spirit...not doing it once and never getting another chance.

Regardless, I don't think someone as sincerely concerned about this issue as you has anything at all to worry about.

FFC wrote:Packrat,
Speaking an evil word may not be as literal as it sounds...as you said it is a heart issue. A mute person could just as easily reject Christ without saying a word.

Let me also suggest this...this particular act of "committing the unforgivable sin" may have only applied to the time that Christ walked the earth.

Remember that the Pharisees saw all the signs and miracles that Christ did in person, miracles that only God could do, and not only did they not believe He was from God but said they were the works of the devil. Sinners today don't have that advantage. We don't have Jesus doing miracles right before our eyes.

Rejecting God's provision of salvation is the only thing that can never be forgiven, but that's not to say if and when that person does believe God won't forgive him or her. My thoughts are that it is the idea of actively rejecting the works of the Spirit...not doing it once and never getting another chance.

Regardless, I don't think someone as sincerely concerned about this issue as you has anything at all to worry about.

How would rejecting the Holy Spirit be blaspheming it? How would rejecting God's gift of salvation be blaspheming the Holy Spirit? It may be a sin, but how is it blasphemy? Christ's words came from the Father. If you reject his words, then you are rejecting the Father's words. At most I can only see how you are blaspheming the Father (because you may be calling the Father a liar or a lie) - not the Holy Spirit. However, if you reject the Holy Spirit because you believe in your heart that the Holy Spirit is a lie, then that might constitute blasphemy (although it seems to have to be verbal here - an open declaration of what you believe in your heart). If this is the case, then one can still reject God's gift of salvation without calling either the Father or the Holy Spirit a lie or a liar. So it looks as if one can go to hell without blaspheming the Holy Spirit. This must make this blasphemy something other than just rejecting God's gift of salvation and going to hell for it.

FFC wrote:Regardless, I don't think someone as sincerely concerned about this issue as you has anything at all to worry about.

And on the other hand if I do not know whether or not God wants to save me, I obviously don't trust in him to save me. That would mean that I'm probably not really a Christian. And so I would have a great deal to worry about.