Evidence for God from Science

How did salvation work in the old testament? I know it was by faith in Jehovah, but could a follower of God lose their salvation since the Holy Spirit didn't indwell them yet? I'm reading Hebrews chaptor 3 and it made me wonder.

Any thoughts?

Remember, Paul tells us there is only one gospel. So salvation is the same before the cross as it is after. It mentions this of Abraham and David in Romans 4 and Galatians 1. Yet these 2 were not always obedient. Yet they finished strong.

I assume you talking about the phrase "shall not enter into my rest"

Psalm 95:11
Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Psalm 132:14
This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Isaiah 18:4
For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Acts 7:49
Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Hebrews 3:11
So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:5
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

The exodus from Egypt has been considered a picture of salvation. Exodus 14:13 shows us this as they were about to cross the Red sea.

And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.

In my opinion, the idea of entering into His rest, is the key here. Those that crossed the Red Sea were saved from Egypt, but because their lack of faith, they were not allowed into the promise land or "shall not enter into His rest" (Psalm 95:10-11)

I think this pictures the salvation of people that get saved but do not continue in faith. They will be saved from eternal torment, but they will not reign with Christ during the 1000 year millennium.

I believe that to "enter into His rest" means to "reign with Christ".

In other words these verses are referring to the rewards of those that are obedient and that there will be less rewards for those that do not finish strong in their faith. Not about loosing salvation.

And although it is much better than not going to heaven, I think this knowledge that we could have done so much more, may cause many Christians to have a time of regret in Heaven. (maybe some of us can recall disappointing our parents, and how the look of shame that they gave us made us feel)
But not to worry - after this 1000 year millennium, all tears will be wiped away.
(Rev 21:4)


So be sure to Finish your race and finish strong.

It staes in the NT that Abraham had fatith and it was credited to him as righteousness...

I was always taught that those understanding and believing in the covenant were essentially placing their belief in God's redeemer and savior.

Don't know about the losing faith, although as a reformed believer, I wouldn't think that God reneges on His deliverance on anyone to whom He credits righteousness.

I've already asked this, but I wanted to know...
This question is related the FFC's question...
What about the Gentiles in the Old Testament? I'm not just talking about the neighbors of the Jewish people, but the people all around the globe. What about the? And please, since God is so perfect and caring to us, I would sincerely appreciate it if the answer wasn't something vague and unclear.

Let me compare a gentile (or ANYONE who doesn't know of God at all) to a newborn baby.

Not sure if i have the facts straight, so please straighten me out if i don't. But i have been told a baby doesn't recognize its mother right away. It might take a few months or a year. But, during that time when it doesn't know its mother, it knows SOMETHING or SOMEONE is taking care of it. Perhaps people who are unaware of God still have that knowledge that there is something greater than them.

God is fair. That much is certain (although not all seem to agree). I don't think he would reject someone who knew nothing of him. Take the native americans. I doubt that, since they had no knowledge of God, they automatically go to hell. Seems unfair, and i know God is far. However, the native american may have some feeling, some knowledge of something greater than he. That is God. God speaks to us all. And, when it is all said and done, i beleive God will judge us on where our hearts lie, not where our knowledge is.

johnnyboy08 wrote:I've already asked this, but I wanted to know...
This question is related the FFC's question...
What about the Gentiles in the Old Testament? I'm not just talking about the neighbors of the Jewish people, but the people all around the globe. What about the? And please, since God is so perfect and caring to us, I would sincerely appreciate it if the answer wasn't something vague and unclear.

Here is the Best Example of a Gentile in the Old Testament. As you can see he did not know of Israel.

Num 22:5 He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me:
Num 22:6 Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for they are too mighty for me: peradventure I shall prevail, that we may smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for I know that he whom thou blessest is blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed.
Num 22:7 And the elders of Moab and the elders of Midian departed with the rewards of divination in their hand; and they came unto Balaam, and spoke unto him the words of Balak.
Num 22:8 And he said unto them, Lodge here this night, and I will bring you word again, as the LORD shall speak unto me: and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam.
Num 22:9 And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?
Num 22:10 And Balaam said unto God, Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, hath sent unto me, saying,
Num 22:11 Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.
Num 22:12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.
Num 22:13 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and said unto the princes of Balak, Get you into your land: for the LORD refuseth to give me leave to go with you.

Enigma7457 wrote:God is fair. That much is certain (although not all seem to agree). I don't think he would reject someone who knew nothing of him. Take the native americans. I doubt that, since they had no knowledge of God, they automatically go to hell. Seems unfair, and i know God is far. However, the native american may have some feeling, some knowledge of something greater than he. That is God. God speaks to us all. And, when it is all said and done, i beleive God will judge us on where our hearts lie, not where our knowledge is.

I have to disagree.

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." (Romans 1:19-20)

While natural revelation is sufficient for giving us all a knowledge of some of the attributes of the true God, the end effect is that it makes one to be "without excuse". Salvation, in both the old and new testament, requires what Jonathan Edwards referred to as "A Divine and Supernatural Light", the kind that enabled Peter to proclaim "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16-17). This was also true in the Old Testament (Psalm 65:4).

I will agree that there are varying degrees in judgment, as those who have not heard the gospel will be judged less severely than those who heard it and rejected it. But they will still be judged.

Maybe i phrased it poorly, since i agree with most of what you said. I had that verse in mind when i wrote my post.

I agree that everyone is aware of God, although they may not be aware that what they are aware of is God. They may know something is there, just be unaware that the name is Christ. Now, as long as they submit to that calling, and attempt to conform somewhat to the moral code inside them, then i don't see why they would be judged any differently than someone who did the same things but knew the name of Christ. If anything, those who know of Christ should be held to a higher standard.

Enigma7457 wrote:They may know something is there, just be unaware that the name is Christ. Now, as long as they submit to that calling, and attempt to conform somewhat to the moral code inside them, then i don't see why they would be judged any differently than someone who did the same things but knew the name of Christ.

This is where we disagree, as this would be tantamount to salvation by works (moral code). If this were true, than to what purpose was Christ's Sacrifice? "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (John 3:18)

Let me ask you this. You suggest that one should be judged the same as a Christian if they "attempt to conform somewhat to the moral code inside them". How good is good enough? What if they attempt to do this and fail? Do not even those possessed by the worst devils attempt this?

The Bible is clear that "...there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12). The moral code inside of us cannot save us. In fact, it does just the opposite. It is our damnation (Romans 3:19).

I believe that those who hear the gospel and reject it are guilty of greater sins and will receive greater condemnation than those who never hear it. Nonetheless, those who never hear it are still condemned already.

Enigma7457 wrote:If anything, those who know of Christ should be held to a higher standard.

I agree. God's grace delivers us from both the penalty as well as the dominion of sin (Romans 6:14). He that claims to know Christ "but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him," (1 John 2:4).