Ok, now I have a question about this. Let's assume I've been saved and I sin again would that fall under this rule? Would I then lose my salvation?
Let's assume my previous sins were anger and lust. I've been forgiven for these sins and commit them again, would that be a sin unto death?
Charlie Brown,
No. That is not what this passage is talking about.
None of us becomes without sin practically when we are saved. Positionally, God attributes to us the righteousness of Christ and on that basis we are declared redeemed or bought back based upon what Christ has done.
We were not saved based upon anything we did. We do not maintain our salvation based upon anything we do or don't do. We cannot sin, away our salvation. If we could, that would mean that our righteousness is what saved us in the first place.
The main thrust of this passage relates to apostasy. There are differing views upon it and what the death spoken of equates to.
As I stated above in my more detailed post going through the entire passage, I believe that the passage is directed to believers and it is speaking of prayer for fellow believers. The issue is idolatry which is equated as a sin unto death. The question then becomes whether it is speaking of spiritual death, which would equate to a loss of salvation, assuming that were possible, or it can equate to physical death.
While as believers we cannot, I believe, sin away our salvation, that doesn't mean that there are not serious consequences for sin. Acts 5:1-11 as has been mentioned earlier in this thread gives an example of this sort of thing, I believe in the case of Annanias and Sapphira. Their sin was lying to the Holy Spirit and to the congregation by seeking to receive praise for their generosity while secretly holding back a portion of the money they received for the sale of their property. They had the right to do what they wanted with that money. That is not why they were struck dead. They lied about it not just to men, they lied directly to God. As a result, they lost their lives. I don't believe they necessarily lost their salvation, but the consequences were high.
The question of apostasy is a very difficult one. There are passages, such as this one, as well as some in Hebrews which appear to indicate that it is possible for a believer to turn their back on God and walk away from their salvation.
They are difficult passages to deal with, but in general, the traditional ways of viewing them fall pretty much into these categories:
1. Apostasy is not possible. God saved us apart from any action on our part and therefore no action on our part can take us from His hand. Sin may and does have serious temportal consequences. God may take the physical life of a believer who is in rebellion in order to limit the damage their rebellion causes to themselves and the rest of the body.
2. Apostasy is possible, however it is a one time decision every bit as radical as conversion in which a person does a 180 degree turn from God away from God and places their trust faith and allegiance in something other than God, which is in essence idolatry. This passage in I John is often used as a proof text for this concept. Once a person does this, they are spiritually dead and unable to return to God. The blood of Christ, no longer has any affect upon them, nor can it, as they have received their pardon and in turn have turned away and counted the blood of Christ an unholy thing.
3. Apostasy is possible, and in fact someone can move in and out of salvation multiple times based upon their current relationship and whether or not their is unconfessed sin or active rebellion in their life.
Personally, I believe option 3 to simply be contrary to the Gospel. If this were true, the classic illustration is that as Christians, the kindest thing we could do for a new convert would be to baptize them and then hold them under so that they don't put their salvation at risk. What a miserable existence it would be to worry from moment to moment whether we were in a state of grace or not.
Between 1 and 2 there is a lot of dispute among believers, with supporters of both positions who are sincere and orthodox. I tend toward position 1 myself. But, as I read this passage in context, I have to confess that there is much here that gives me pause and makes me aware of the seriousness of sin.
Romans 1 - 8 is very important in forming a framework to understand this.
Again, this is a 30,000 foot fly over and you'll find a great deal of discussion about this on some other threads. It's an important issue to consider.
BUt in terms of individual sins such as you mention with Lust and Anger, we were not saved based upon our ability to maintain a perfect standard. Our salvation is not maintained on that basis. To attempt or believe otherwise would in fact, be stating to God that our righteousness is as good as His. We are saved by Grace and maintained by God, not ourselves. Nevertheless, Sin has very serious consequences that for the believer can extend right up to the loss of our physical lives.
Hope this helps,
Bart
