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A theist takes on an atheist: Hitchens vs. Hitchens. Who win

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:39 am
by Blind Electric Ray
The following is a transcript of an interview conducted this morning on BBC Radio 4. I would be very interested in a sztraw poll amongst members on this site as to who you think "wins" the debate:
Interviewer: The author Christopher Hitchens has a new book out. It's called God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, and in it he contends that religion is violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry; contemptuous of women and coercive towards children. He joins is here in the studio, his brother Peter Hitchens, who's a columnist for the Mail On Sunday, is in Oxford. Good morning to you both. Christopher Hitchens, it's quite a series of claims made there — that religion poisons everything. Do you think that religious faith has done no good whatsoever?

CH: Well let me put it like this: I've been issuing this as a kind of challenge to the various priests and ministers and rabbis and so on that I've been debating in the United States in the last few weeks, and — in order to win my prize (so far undisclosed!) - you have to name an ethical statement made or action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer. No-one's yet been able to produce one, so it's no good saying that, “well I used to know a jolly nice priest who worked with disabled children and was an absolute sweetie” or “was a hero against tyranny” or something of this kind, because I could produce just as easily a German Communist who died heroically in the name of Joseph Stalin fighting Adolph Hitler. It would vindicate his party, would it?

Interviewer: Can you take up that challenge, Peter Hitchens?

PH: Not really, because it's a dud question. The question isn't whether a believer or an unbeliever could have done it; the question is whether the ideas which led the person to do it could have existed without the idea of an absolute morality and an absolute good, which atheism denies. And if there is no such thing as an absolute good then, for instance, there is no basis for things such as selfless courage which have absolutely no objective self-interested justification or, indeed, for the idea on which our civilisation rests that there exists such a thing as Law which is above power, and which has to be observed however powerful and however rich you may be.

CH: That went straight past my bat. Atheism does not deny that there is an absolute right or wrong. It's not relativistic — an atheist can be, of course — an atheist can be anything: can be a nihilist, but atheism is in my view only a necessary condition for clarity of mind, it's not a sufficient one.

PH: Atheism has no basis for deciding what right and wrong is.

CH: But no more does religion do so. If I was to ask anyone who's listening to this to imagine a wicked action performed by a religious person that was performed because of their faith, everyone could immediately think of an example; it would take no time at all. Religion makes people behave worse all the time and often preaches wicked things. For example, it's founded on a lie: the lie that we can escape death.

PH: Well, you've just changed the subject. The subject is: “what is the origin of any absolute idea of right and wrong?” Atheism denies that there is any origin for such an idea. All ideas of right and wrong which atheists can come up with are situational, ad hoc, designed for the times, and they're alterable. The point about the theist position is that it maintains that there is an absolute source of good, and that absolute source cannot be overcome by any particular worldly need that you have at any given time. The problem with people is that when they are left to their own devices, they will always find excuses for doing things which suit them.

CH: This involves the absurd belief that, say, the Jewish people wandering towards Sinai were under the impression that murder and usury and theft were all right until they were told by God that these things were not kosher. It's innate in people to know that these things are wrong; it's part of our evolution as humans top know that solidarity and mutuality are essential. We do not do a right action in order to please a celestial dictator, which is in my view an immoral basis of morality.

PH: We re-categorise actions which suit us. We all know that killing babies is wrong, and yet we kill 186,000 of them every year in the womb, in this country alone, and we call it abortion and instead of babies we call them foetuses to get round this problem, and there are many, many other things we do: actions of betrayal and dishonesty which we tell ourselves are all right because that's the way in which human beings evade the obligations of absolute morality

CH: The supreme being mandates the genital mutilation of babies, something no morally normal parent would consider doing.

PH: Again, you've changed the subject. You can't address, and no atheist has addressed, nor ever will, the simple problem that if you don't believe in any kind of supreme authority then ultimately you make your own mind up about what's good and bad, and that leads to the consequences we all know.

CH: That would mean logically, wouldn't it, that if there was no objective evidence that could be provided for the existence of this dictator who you worship, you'd have to say then I don't feel any longer I have any moral promptings. A perfectly nihilistic conclusion. Moral chaos results from your first premise.

PH: You can decide whether you want to believe that we are the products of random chaos or whether we live in a created, ordered, purposeful universe. Having taken that decision you than then try and discover what it is that we're supposed to do. No-one's offering any evidence; again, you're changing the subject ...

Interviewer: I'm going to come in, if I may, to change the subject slightly to ask both of you whether you have a theory as to why the two of you who were brought up, presumably, in the same way have come to such completely different conclusions?

CH: Well, there's nothing remarkable at all in any two people having divergent opinions. I certainly don't think it's very rare within families.

Interviewer: But on religion, on politics, the two of you are poles apart. Peter, do you have a ...?

CH: This doesn't help to sell my book at all!

PH: there is a simple answer to this one. We were both brought up with independence of mind and independence of mind doesn't necessarily lead you to agree with each other, but id does lead you to take positions as a result of thinking about them and as a result of consideration and experience rather than following conventional wisdom. I think you'll find neither of us follows conventional wisdom: that much we definitely have in common.

Interviewer: And you've always taken the decision not to review your brother's books, yet you've made an exception in this case. Why?

PH: Well, I don't think he's any more expert on the subject than I am. I wouldn't dream of taking him on on Henry Kissinger; I'm sure he knows more and cares more about Henry Kissinger than I do. But I think on the question of whether there should be religion in the world and whether for instance it should be classified as child abuse and therefore effectively stamped out, I think I can both disagree with him, and be as knowledgeable on the subject as he is.
Also interested in the reasons for your views.

Blind Electric Ray

Re: A theist takes on an atheist: Hitchens vs. Hitchens. Who win

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:54 am
by Canuckster1127
I'm biased of course but I believe the Theist brother does a good job of pointing out where the atheist continues to jump around and refuses to stay on point.

Atheism logically reduces to nihilism, no matter what examples to the contrary you wish to attempt to point out. Exceptions to a rule do not negate the general observation which is an assessment in total.

This is just as true in the case of the overall good of religion's contributions to society when examples of its misuse are presented and attempts made to characterize all religion in this light.

The fact remains that if man is simply a result of random chance in a universe with no meaning, then there is no purely rational basis to act contrary to one's immediate wants and desires beyond immediate consequences and biologically all purpose in life is void once reproduction is achieved.

Other than that ......

Re: A theist takes on an atheist: Hitchens vs. Hitchens. Who win

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:29 am
by Kurieuo
Canuckster1127 wrote:... the Theist brother does a good job of pointing out where the atheist continues to jump around and refuses to stay on point.
I agree with Canucks comments about Chris jumping around and not staying on point. Chris I am sure would be a better rhetorician, but beyond that there is no real argument with any weight I see him putting forward. So I voted for Peter for these reason and because as I see he makes more sense stays more on topic. But it could be said Chris also wins most since he gets a bit of promotion on his new book. ;)

Does either side really win with their arguments though? I mean what do they achieve? I do think they both present a good snapshot of what both sides usually offer.

Re: A theist takes on an atheist: Hitchens vs. Hitchens. Who win

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:54 am
by Blind Electric Ray
Does either side really win with their arguments though? I mean what do they achieve? I do think they both present a good snapshot of what both sides usually offer.
A very, very good question.

Re: A theist takes on an atheist: Hitchens vs. Hitchens. Who win

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:11 pm
by Joseph
one of the many things that those of us who do battle with CH let him get away with, is that we let him totally deflect the argument from God (Yahweh); from His very existence and the evidence thereof, and allow him to wallow and draw us into his comfort zone of berating religion, a manmade construct which is indeed flawed and imperfect; which indeed has committed atrocities as he suggests; and which, sadly, has gotten it wrong more often than perhaps any of us would like to admit. We take up the banner of religion. And while it is indeed true that he lays all of the maladies of man at the doorstep of religion while ignoring the immense good done by religious institutions, it is also true that we immediately sound the battle call on his terms: we defend religion when the fact is that we have a much better and more infallible defense: our perfect and almighty Creator. When we stop taking him on on his terms and fearlessly trumpet our perfect and incorruptible ace, the poor sap has no chance! The title of his book boldly proclaims, "God is not Great." In the very next breath, the subtitle, he manages to deflect the argument from a position to which he cannnot possibly mount any argument against to a realm he can comfortably manage. The argument he initially proposes is not about human error. The man is, if nothing else, brilliant. I am amazed how seemlessly we let him get away with this slight of hand. I would love to take him on on his initial proposition because there, he is completely out of his league!

Re: A theist takes on an atheist: Hitchens vs. Hitchens. Who win

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:15 am
by Banky
I'm biased of course but I believe the Theist brother does a good job of pointing out where the atheist continues to jump around and refuses to stay on point.
I didn't see him jumping around or deflecting the argument any more than his brother wanted to maitain control of the "subject."

The initial question regarded "can religion do no good." He answered the position by stating that, if the same act can be done without religion, then is the religion required for "good."

Following that it is then Peter who changes the subject himself by rewording the question so that it suits him. The new question is then not can good be done without religion but can their be good without a creator (more or less). The assertion is that athiests have no basis for right and wrong. Chris responded that neither does religion. Changing the subject? No....only changing the perspective of the argument....which again, f you remember, the original question was can religion do no good. Peter wants Chris to defend the atheists view of morality and Chris responds by making Peter defend that the religious perspective isn't any different.

Both are using the classic debate tactic of keeping their adversary on the defensive.

Peter responds in kind by claiming the subject is being changed, which it is to a degree, but no more so than he is doing it himself.

Each time peter responds that the subject has changed, its when Christopher points out the atrocities caused by religions, which of course is a subject that Peter doesn't want to talk about.

Next Peter talks about abortion (which, BTW, believers have at a higher rate than non-believers). Christopher responds with circumcision.

......change of subject? Only as much as Peter does.


The point of the discussion, in the end, is that a religious person contends that a belief in a higher power is necessary to be a moral person. The athiest contends that morality exists without such a belief. The religious person wants to know what motivation one would have to do good things if they didn't believe in a higher power and the athiest wants to know if that is the only reason a religious person does good things. If so, then can one really say they are being moral.

Christophers entire point is that the religious continually make this assertion, yet, at the same time, have not behaved any more morally (as a whole) than the non-believers.

As for who won the debate? I think it was pretty much a tie. They both got their points out. I don't think either one convinced anyone to change their minds.

Re: A theist takes on an atheist: Hitchens vs. Hitchens. Who win

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:12 am
by Banky
then there is no purely rational basis to act contrary to one's immediate wants and desires beyond immediate consequences and biologically all purpose in life is void once reproduction is achieved.
You have a good point, though I'll contend that one not need a "rational basis" to be have in a seemingly moral manner.

A person's sense of morality (using the academic meaning, not the Christian meaning. The only reason why I distinguish the two is to avoid word smithing.) is a product of culture and instincts more than anything else. God can define what is right or wrong, but it is up to man to deliver this message to others (your children, for example) and then it is up to those to determine if they will behave in a moral manner or not.

For many it depends on what the motivators are and how strong they are. Kohlberg has defined several stages of morality as children develop into adults. I recommend this link to read:

http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

On the simplest level, you follow the rules (morals) out of fear of what will happen if you don't (eternity in hell). A moral can also be followed for a reward (eternal life). Rewards and punishments can be taught through th echurch, but they are also taught by the parents, the, schools, you rmilitary seargent, your coach, your boss, etc. These other influences may not constitute what is "ultimately right," but rather "right" for the purposes of the organization. A drill seargent isn't concerned with the 10 commandments (necessarily) as much as he is concerned with a functioning platoon. For that reason a certain system of morality is developed within the platoon.

In addtion there is also an emotional component that drives human moral decisions. You may cry when your dog dies or when you see a starving child. Empathy is something that can be influenced by extrenal factors, but it is these very feelings of empathy that drive moral decisions. In this case, you may do "whatever you want" but at the same time, what you "want" happens to be to do seemingly "moral" things. IE there are pleanty of doctors, nurses, fireman, research scientists, etc. who are athiests yet still have a compassion for humanity, feelings of empathy, and a desire to help our fellow humans. The only reward is a "sense of accomplishment for the greater good." Thi scan be, and is, done without a belief in an ultimate reward of treasures in heaven.

My point is that there are many different motivators that drive a person's sense of morality. A belief in a supernatural reward/punishment is but only one of those motivators. The idea that an athiest is without motivation for moral behaviour is simply not true. Otherwise you need to ask yourself why there are so few athiests in prison......or at the very least ask yourself why the few athiests that you know behave in a seemingly moral manner.

The whole point that C.H. was making is that religious people don't do "good" at any higher a rate than non-believers do.

Re: A theist takes on an atheist: Hitchens vs. Hitchens. Who win

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:26 pm
by SaintGeorge
CH: This doesn't help to sell my book at all!
Ah...a nice, cold glass of truth. Christopher's real motivation shines through brilliantly in a moment of frustration and anger. He's only in this for himself, to sell his book. He begins to whine when the debate ceases to support his self-interests.