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The Real Church of God

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:57 pm
by zeppmeister
There was somebody who said that, the true church is not the congregation of the Apostles because the Apostles were destroyed by satan and they were killed. Therefore, theirs was not the true church. He said that, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Mat. 16:18). It means that the true church would not die. And for that reason, the members of that church would not experience death either. And they alleged that the Apostles died because their church was not the true church, theirs was the true church.

We will consult the Bible to find out if the claim of many churches, that they are the true church, were true, or not. Let us find out also if there is any truth to their assertion that they are the only true church, and whosoever does not join their church will never be saved.

It is but natural that people develop the feeling that their church is the true church, and that only they will be saved. And those who are outside their church have no salvation. Actually, this is already an old claim by different religious organizations, and until now, this is still their claim.

But let us find out from the Bible, which is the true church. As far as some people are concerned, theirs is the true church, while all the others are impostors. That is why we better ask the Bible, which is the true church? What comprises it? Where is it? Is it in the Philippines? Did it originate here? We will try to seek answers to these questions from the Bible. For us not to be misled, let us start our discussion from the very beginning.

First and foremost, let us find out, which is the very first church? Nothing could be better than the original. Please, bear in mind; we are referring to the first real church. The Bible speaks of “firsts,” or “originals”. Let us cite an example. I Corinthians 15:45 says--

“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”

The Bible said, the first man, Adam, became a living soul. The very first man, the original, was Adam. Do not forget that nobody came ahead of Adam. Although, nowadays, there are some who believe that there were already a group of people who had come before Adam and they alleged that they were even more intelligent than him. They were referring to those who build the pyramids of Egypt. Apparently, they marveled at the great architectural design of the pyramids of Egypt. But if we are going to base our belief on the Bible, the very first man is Adam. And according to St. Paul, who is an authority of the Bible, he said that nobody came ahead of Adam. The book of Genesis in chapter 3 verse 20 also speaks of another “original”.“And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.”

Very clearly, the reason why she was called Eve was because “she was the mother of all living.” In other words, Eve is our original mother, while Adam is the original, or the first man. If, in matters like this, there are “originals”, when it comes to the church, there is also an original, or the first church. And this is what we are going to talk about. Now, let us begin. Let us consult the Bible and ask: what was the very first church? Let us read Hebrews 12:23--

“To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to the God the judge of all?”

St. Paul said,“To the general assembly and church of the firstborn.”.” Could there be another church that had come ahead of this? None, because this is the church of the firstborn! Firstborn means the very first; none has come before a firstborn. In other words, the very first church in the Bible is the church of the firstborn.

Now, let us find out, to whom was the Bible ascribing the name “church of the firstborn”? Remember, we are not talking about the first church in the Philippines! We are talking about the first church insofar as the biblical account is concerned. And from the Bible, we have learned about the church of the firstborn. Now, let us read Exodus 4:22--

“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thou saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.”

Which was referred to as the firstborn? Israel is the very first nation that served God. It was the first nation on earth that was chosen by God. Deuteronomy 7:6-7 says,

“For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you because you were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people.”

God chose Israel, despite the fact that it was the smallest then. There were already a number of nations on earth that time. Egypt was one of them. There were already the seven nations, which were a lot bigger than Israel. Yet, God chose Israel to serve Him. (Israel refers to the Jews). Let us read Deuteronomy 7:1--

“When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgasthites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Parizzites, and the Hevites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou.”

There were seven nations greater in strength and in number than Israel. But it was Israel that was chosen by God to be His nation. The Bible said, “The LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Although there were greater and mightier nations, God still chose Israel. In fact, the Bible even said, that they were the fairest of all people.

That is why, if we are going to talk about service to God, Israel was the first. The Bible calls them as the Church of the Firstborn. And the Israel that is being referred to here is the group of people that Moses led out of Egypt — the people who crossed the Red Sea, which was parted by Moses (Exodus 14). They were the people who witnessed the many miracles of God so that they would be freed from the hands of the Pharaoh. Those very people of God were the ones being called as the church of the firstborn. After freeing them from slavery, Moses brought them to the wilderness of Mount Sinai, where they stayed for a long time. God made a covenant with them, thru Moses. That was the church of the firstborn, the church in the wilderness. What is our basis in saying that it was, indeed, Israel? In the Acts of the Apostles chapter 7 verse 38 it says--

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who received the lively oracles to give unto us.”

This is the Moses in the church in the wilderness. If you will trace the beginning, there was already a church even before Jesus Christ assumed the image of a man. That was the church which was led by Moses, and this was called church of the firstborn or the church in the wilderness. This is the reason why the ministers of other religious groups should be cautious. Imagine they are making their members believe that their church is the original because it was the first. That is a big lie! The very first church is the church of the firstborn, and that was Israel. The word “firstborn” means that none had come before it. None had come ahead of the firstborn.

In the Bible, a firstborn refers to the child that opened a mother's womb. In Luke 2:22-23 it says--

“And when the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord).”

The firstborn refers to the child that opens his mother's womb; a firstborn implies the first. In the Bible, the church of the firstborn refers to the Israelites, not the Filipinos. Therefore, even during the time of Moses, there was already a church. Even before Christ made Himself manifest in the flesh, there was already a church. This was the church in the wilderness of Sinai — the Church of the Firstborn.

Is there any verse that would affirm that Israel was the church of the firstborn? In James 1:18, “Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.” The Israelites were the first. Do we have a proof that Israel is the church in the wilderness and church of the firstborn, which God acknowledged then? Romans 9:4-5 says--

“Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came . . .”

It was from their race that Christ sprang from when He made Himself manifest in the flesh. It says, to them pertains the adoption, the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. Whose are the fathers, and in whom as concerning the flesh Christ came. In the beginning, Israel was the only city that was acknowledged by God. Let us read what II Kings 5:15 says,

“And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before them; and said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel.”
There was no God in all the earth but in Israel. And this was confirmed by the “Pasyon” of the Catholics, which says,


Lalong dakila ang sala
Ng tanang anak ni Eva
Anakin idolatria
Kahit ano sinasamba
Pinaparang dios nila
Iisang nasyon sa mundo
Ang kumilalang totoo
Sa Dios kumapal sa tao
Ito ngang mga Hudyo
Bukod na walang anito



(Greater is the sin)
(By all of Eve's children)
(Who practice idolatry)
(They worship anything)
(They regard them as their god)
(There was but one nation on earth)
(That truly acknowledged)
(The God who created man)
(the Jews)
(Were the only ones who did not worship false gods)

Israel was the only nation that truly acknowledged God. Israel refers to the Jews — the race where Jesus Christ came from. Both Mary and Joseph were Jews. The Jews were called the church of the firstborn, the church in the wilderness. And the church of the firstborn is the very first church of God. Read the verse, which a particular group uses as a basis in claiming that there is the true church, Matthew 16:18--

“And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

It is in this verse where they usually begin. After reading this, the minister would ask, “Whose is the church? Christ said, “my church”, therefore, it is the church of Christ!”

But wait a minute. Let us ask Christ why did He says,“Upon this rock I will build my church.”Christ said, I will build my church. He did not say He will establish His church. What is the biblical connotation of the verb “will build”? Let us read the explanation of the Apostles in Acts 15:16-17--

“After this, I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down, and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.”

Therefore, whenever the Bible uses “will build”, it suggests that something has fallen down. According to God's prophecy, He would return and He would build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen. He would build it again because it was destroyed.

Now, let us find out from the Bible, why had David's tabernacle fallen? Is there any other verse in the Old Testament that confirms this? Amos 9:11 says--
“In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breeches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old.”

The reason why the word “will build” was used is because something had fallen. We have cited two verses to prove that. The tabernacle of David in Israel had fallen, that is why God said, “I will build it as in the days of old.”

We have read in Acts 7:38 that the first church was the church of the firstborn, the church in the wilderness. Why, what happened to this church in the wilderness? Why did it have to be raised up? What happened? Psalms 147:2 says--

“The LORD doth build up Jerusalem; he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel.”

The Israelites were scattered; they had fallen. Do you know why the church that was built in Sinai, which was called the church in the wilderness, fell? What is the story behind it? Let us read Ezekiel 34:2-5--

“Son of man, prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flock? Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye tell them that are fed but ye feed not the flock. The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost, but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. And they were scattered.”

When Moses and the faithful Judges and Kings died, what used to be an orderly Israel was abused by their shepherds, or pastors. So, God told Ezekiel, “prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock?”

In your respective churches, who is feeding you? Is it your pastor? Or, are you the one feeding your pastor? There are, indeed, churches wherein the flocks are the ones feeding their shepherds. Ezekiel 34:2 says--

“Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds: Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks?”

It should be the shepherd, or the pastor, who should feed his flock. But nowadays, it has become the other way around. The flock now is the one feeding the shepherd. Your pastors have made you their sources of livelihood. They ask tithes from you; they make you mendicants in the streets; they make you carry pouches where your collections should be dropped. Are these things true, or not? Of course, they are true. We are all witnesses to these things. Therefore, what the Bible said was true.

In Ezekiel 34:3: “Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool . . .” The shepherds are dressed up with the finest clothing material. “Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed but ye feed not the flock.”

It would be very bad had you been the fattest in the flock because you would be killed. Too bad, also, if your daughter happened to be the prettiest in the flock because she would be taken by the pastor. All the women with fair and flawless thighs belong to the pastor. This is not a joke. This is a reality. We have documents to prove that there was a pastor who had 36 wives. And mind you, he was claiming to be a messenger of God. What kind of messenger is that? I am not maligning anybody. What I am telling you is the truth because the public has the right to know the truth. Why am I divulging all these? In religion, if you are ignorant of the truth, you will be taken advantage. Just like what they are doing to you now, instead of your pastors feeding you, you are the ones feeding your pastors.

What does that mean? Be it literal or spiritual, that is what pastors do to their flocks. They abuse their flock. Imagine the pastor lives in a palace while his members live in the squatters' area! And what is worse, these poor people even give donations to their leader who lives in the palace. Is that fair? Isn't it that the one living in the palace should be the one who should give donations to the ones living in the squatters' area? There is no such thing in the Bible. The admonition is for the rich to give to the poor. Your pastor is already very rich, but you still give him your money. He already has a lot of money, yet he never stops from collecting money from you. If he is sensitive to the plight of his flock, he should distribute to the poor the rest of his collections. Just like us. The donations that our members give are being spent in serving other people. Our members cannot accuse us that we are a burden to them. No member of this congregation can accuse me of spending his donations for my personal needs. The truth is their donations are not even enough to pay our airtime expenses on radio and television. Thru the mercy of God, food is not really a problem to me. I have my brothers and sisters and nephews who could feed me. Our main problem is how to reach out to as many people for them not to be abused and deceived by those pastors. The Bible says,“Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks? Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed but ye feed not the flock. The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and cruelty have ye ruled them.”

A lot of religious leaders are very strict to their members. Strict in what aspect? In terms of money! If the members do not give tithes, they accuse them of robbing God. And because they are robbing God, they will surely go to hell. That is how they threaten their members. But because the members do not want to be condemned in hell, they keep on giving tithes. That is the reason why the pastor is able to live a very comfortable and luxurious life. The pastor rides a very beautiful car. In fact, he owns a total of 16 cars, aside from a helicopter and an airplane. He has five mansions, several condominium units, and three rest houses. The pastor lives a very extravagant life, and I couldn't help but be reminded of the Israelites. Their shepherds took advantage of them. Jeremiah 32:31-33 says--

“For this city hath been to me as a provocation of mine anger and of my fury from the day that they build it even unto this day; that I should remove it from before my face. Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests and their prophets and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And they have turned unto me the back . . .”

There was connivance among the kings, the priests, the prophets, and the men of Judah to turn their back to God. They did nothing but enrich themselves. This is what Micah 3:11 says--

“The heads there of judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money.”

All for reward and money! Just like what many religions do today. If you want to be baptized, you have to pay. You have to pay again if you want a confirmation. If you want to get married, you have to pay also. If you are dying and you want to receive the so-called last sacrament, you still have to pay. When you die and you want to receive a benediction in the altar, you have to pay again. Has not religion become a very lucrative business for many? Isn't it that they make a lot of money out of it? Correct me if I am wrong. What the Bible says is very clear. “The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money.” What keeps them busy? They are busy enriching themselves. What was the result? Jeremiah 5:26-27 says--

“For among my people are found wicked men they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. As a cage is full of birds, So are their house full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.”

The pastors in Israel made themselves very rich. As a result, they neglected their duties to the organization. God's organizational set up was lost. Israel had fallen; the flocks were scattered; they lost a pastor or shepherd who truly cared for them. Although the pastors were not literally gone, however, all of them were only after material gains. What happened later on? II Chronicles 15:3 says--

“Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.”

In other words, God abandoned Israel.We have read in II Kings 5:15 15 that there was no God, then, on earth except in Israel. During that time, God was with them, but now, Israel is without a God, and without a teaching priest. Why? They were replaced by shameless and greedy pastors. And that is how most pastors are in our time. No wonder we experience so many earthquakes and other calamities. Many pastors today are only interested in the money of their members. They sell them handkerchiefs, stickers, and magazines. They make a lot of money out of their members. That was what happened to Israel then. That was the reason why God cursed them. So, they were scattered and they were driven to different places. Now, will God let His church be disintegrated and scattered for long? Will God completely abandon them? This is what Psalms 147:2 says--

“The Lord doeth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel.”

The scattered sheep will once again be gathered together by God. He will raise Israel up again. That is what God wants. God didn't want His people to be scattered for long. He will find a way on how to rebuild what had fallen. How will He do it? Amos 9:11 says--

“In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breeches thereof: and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old.”

What had fallen will be raised up again. Therefore, God didn't want His flock to be scattered. He will rebuild Israel. What will He do to rebuild it? Will He descend from heaven to personally rebuild it? How will He do it? This is the prophecy in Zechariah 6:12--

“And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of host, saying, Behold the man whose name is the BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD.”

In the prophecy, there is a man whose name is Branch. Where will that Branch emerge from? Read Jeremiah 23:5--

“Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign.”

So, the Branch will come from David. Do we have any proof? Jeremiah 33:15 says--

“In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up into David.”
The man, whose name is Branch, will raise up the tabernacle of David that had fallen. And this refers to Israel, the city of God . . . the church of the firstborn . . . the church in the wilderness, which fell because of the abusive pastors. Who will raise it up? It will be raised up by the man who shall spring from David, and his name is Branch. Who is He? Let us read Revelations 22:16--

“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

Who is the offspring of David? Who is the Branch? CHRIST! Therefore, Christ, who also came from Israel, will be commissioned by God to raise up Israel which had fallen. In fact, this is what Matthew 15:24 says--

“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

What did our Lord Jesus say? “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” He was sent to gather them all together. That is why Christ became an instrument in raising up Israel, which had fallen. Did Christ fulfill this when He came? This is what Matthew 16:18 says--

“And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church …”

Is that the first church? No! But there is a religious organization that considers Mat. 16:18 as the first church ever. That is not the first! The first was Israel, but it fell. God wanted it to be rebuilt. And in order to rebuild it, God will send a man whose name is Branch. And that is Christ. He will rebuild what had fallen. This is the reason why, when Christ came, He said--

“And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church.”

Why will He raise the church up? The church in the wilderness, the church of the firstborn, which is Israel, had fallen. So when Christ came, He shall rebuild it. Israel was ruined. It was abused by the pastors. But this time, it will be different.Matthew 16:18 says--

“And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Its rebuilding was accompanied with a promise. Because the first church was destroyed by abusive pastors, this time, when Christ rebuilds it, He gave an assurance that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” What does that mean? Was He able to rebuild the church? Jesus said,“I will rebuild my church.” Was He able to do it? If He did, where was it built? Is it in the Philippines? in the far east? in Rome? in the US? If it had been rebuilt, how is it called? What is its name?

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:19 pm
by Genoteleno
The establishment of the original church of scripture is one of simplicity. Here are the facts as taken directly from Biblical text:


The first century church, that started on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2, is our pattern today.

There exists now a common salvation for all (Jude 1:3). What God requires of one He requires of all.

The Old Testament is to be relied upon for learning. We are no longer bound by its laws but rather, are under a new law, that being the New Testament (Hebrews 8:13).

We are Christians only. One cannot find out what one must do to become a Christian in the pages of a human creed. The Bible is the only book we have that teaches how to be numbered with the saved (Acts 2:47).

The name "Christian" was not used before the establishment of the church (in Acts 2).


Yes, there are particulars in scriptural teaching concerning the specific activities of the church, the boundaries of how it was/is organized and its purpose... however its simplicity is quite often elusive to people who tend to go to great lengths to get to their point...

2Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Also, hear the advice we are given in 1 John chapter 1:

1Jo 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1Jo 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

1Jo 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

1Jo 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.

1Jo 4:6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

I respectively submit that the information "zeppmeister" has given in length has bits and pieces of accuracy, but is mostly in error and textually incorrect.

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:36 pm
by Gman
Genoteleno wrote: Yes, there are particulars in scriptural teaching concerning the specific activities of the church, the boundaries of how it was/is organized and its purpose... however its simplicity is quite often elusive to people who tend to go to great lengths to get to their point...
Ah... Ok. Seems pretty simplistic to me. :)

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:09 am
by YLTYLT
I always thought the church consisted of whomever belongs to the body of Christ. (saved people)

Is not Abraham included in this Group?

Christianity did not start with the birth of Jesus. It started with the Promise of a Messiah which was first eluded to in Gen 3:15.

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:16 am
by Genoteleno
Not under the current law which was put into effect at the death/resurrection of Christ. Abraham was under another dispensation (law) and was chosen by God to lead his people. He couldn't have been called a "Christian" because he lived centuries before Christ. Christians (disciples) were first called by this name in the city of Antioch as stated in Acts 11:26. This happened in the infancy of the new age (Christian age) in which we now live. God adds to the church those who are saved. The name "church" means "called out". God established a way for anyone to come to Him... not only the Jews(who were His select people) but anyone can now be "called out" from the world (wickedness) into fellowship with God through Jesus, who gave His life as a ransom for all. This is the function of the church. To enable us all to have a path to God through Jesus. Take heed,however, to these warnings from God: "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible." (Mark 13:22). In other words, not everyone who "believes" will be saved: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."(Matt 7:21). Also: "But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."(Matt 7:26). So, yes, there were those throughout the beginning of time that were saved who were not within the church, but it was because God's plan for mankind was in it's first phase. Just as the men of old can't be saved by the church, WE also cannot be saved by following the old laws that THEY were following during their lifetime.

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:46 am
by BavarianWheels
Genoteleno wrote:Not under the current law which was put into effect at the death/resurrection of Christ. Abraham was under another dispensation (law) and was chosen by God to lead his people. He couldn't have been called a "Christian" because he lived centuries before Christ. Christians (disciples) were first called by this name in the city of Antioch as stated in Acts 11:26. This happened in the infancy of the new age (Christian age) in which we now live. God adds to the church those who are saved. The name "church" means "called out". God established a way for anyone to come to Him... not only the Jews(who were His select people) but anyone can now be "called out" from the world (wickedness) into fellowship with God through Jesus, who gave His life as a ransom for all. This is the function of the church. To enable us all to have a path to God through Jesus. Take heed,however, to these warnings from God: "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible." (Mark 13:22). In other words, not everyone who "believes" will be saved: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."(Matt 7:21). Also: "But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."(Matt 7:26). So, yes, there were those throughout the beginning of time that were saved who were not within the church, but it was because God's plan for mankind was in it's first phase. Just as the men of old can't be saved by the church, WE also cannot be saved by following the old laws that THEY were following during their lifetime.
Wrong...see Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2. Abraham had faith in a coming Messiah...we have faith in a risen Messiah. No difference...other than we know Jesus' name...Abraham didn't know "Jesus", but knew God and His promise.
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Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:46 pm
by Genoteleno
you're gonna have to elaborate on which part of scripture you are saying is "wrong". Those chapters you listed are definitely referring to faith and law, but have nothing to say about Abraham being a member of the church.
Taken from YOUR references: (Romans 4:13) "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.". Yes, we are to have faith like Abraham, but I'm missing the connection as to where it's talking about (in any of your references) where this made them members of the church.

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:57 pm
by BavarianWheels
Genoteleno wrote:Not under the current law which was put into effect at the death/resurrection of Christ. Abraham was under another dispensation (law)
Basically it was of this...

See Romans 4:16, 9:7-8, 2 Corinthians 11:22, Galatians 3:29, Hebrews 2:16.
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Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:31 pm
by Cross.eyed
BavarianWheels wrote:
Genoteleno wrote:Not under the current law which was put into effect at the death/resurrection of Christ. Abraham was under another dispensation (law) and was chosen by God to lead his people. He couldn't have been called a "Christian" because he lived centuries before Christ. Christians (disciples) were first called by this name in the city of Antioch as stated in Acts 11:26. This happened in the infancy of the new age (Christian age) in which we now live. God adds to the church those who are saved. The name "church" means "called out". God established a way for anyone to come to Him... not only the Jews(who were His select people) but anyone can now be "called out" from the world (wickedness) into fellowship with God through Jesus, who gave His life as a ransom for all. This is the function of the church. To enable us all to have a path to God through Jesus. Take heed,however, to these warnings from God: "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible." (Mark 13:22). In other words, not everyone who "believes" will be saved: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."(Matt 7:21). Also: "But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."(Matt 7:26). So, yes, there were those throughout the beginning of time that were saved who were not within the church, but it was because God's plan for mankind was in it's first phase. Just as the men of old can't be saved by the church, WE also cannot be saved by following the old laws that THEY were following during their lifetime.
Wrong...see Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2. Abraham had faith in a coming Messiah...we have faith in a risen Messiah. No difference...other than we know Jesus' name...Abraham didn't know "Jesus", but knew God and His promise.
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And don't forget the "Hall of Fame of Faith" in Hebrews. All of them saw the Messiah coming.

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:40 pm
by Genoteleno
[.[/quote]

And don't forget the "Hall of Fame of Faith" in Hebrews. All of them saw the Messiah coming.[/quote]


somehow we've strayed from the original discussion.. I don't disagree with the fact that from Abraham on, there was a promise of God that would be fulfilled in Jesus. My original response was to understand how this makes everyone in Biblical history a "church" as stated in an earlier comment. No one before the death of Jesus could be a "God-added" disciple within the church that Jesus established. "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47) Correct me on this point, if wrong, but I don't read about God adding anyone to the church before the death of Jesus. Not to infer that the patriarchs of old are left out, but they were governed under the old law which required many works including animal sacrifices to wipe away their sins. Jewish law was, indeed, in force and necessary during that time because it was God's plan. Jesus came as an ultimate sacrifice for all when he established the new law and fullfilling God's plan so that ALL might come to him.. not just the Jewish nation. This was the fulfillment of the promise of God all the way back to the very beginning. BUT, it doesn't mean that everyone from day one is a part of the church because the church wasn't established until the day of Pentecost in Acts 2,

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:30 pm
by zoegirl
If it is "by faith we are saved" and Abraham "faith was credited to him as righteousness" then he was saved. The Body of CHrist, His church, is made of those who are saved.
BUT, it doesn't mean that everyone from day one is a part of the church because the church wasn't established until the day of Pentecost in Acts 2,
Surely we can see that the established "church" that Paul refers to is simply that localized time and place. The Body of Christ, His Bride, His church, is made oof all those He has redeemed through HIs grace and faith.

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:47 pm
by Cross.eyed
BUT, it doesn't mean that everyone from day one is a part of the church because the church wasn't established until the day of Pentecost in Acts 2,
zoegirl wrote:Surely we can see that the established "church" that Paul refers to is simply that localized time and place. The Body of Christ, His Bride, His church, is made oof all those He has redeemed through HIs grace and faith.
Which was Gods plan all along. Do I hear an :amen: ?

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:02 pm
by Genoteleno
scripture to support you claims?

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:19 pm
by Cross.eyed
Genoteleno wrote:scripture to support you claims?
Most certainly! Start with Hebrews and tell me what you think. I don't have much time tonight, but if possible, I'll have more on this tommorrow.
BTW, welcome to the board.

Re: The Real Church of God

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:25 pm
by bizzt
I love Scripture!!!

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

From Barnes
"Heb 12:1 -
Wherefore - In view of what has been said in the previous chapter.
Seeing we also are encompassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses - The apostle represents those to whom he had referred in the previous chapter, as looking on to witness the efforts which Christians make, and the manner in which they live. There is allusion here, doubtless, to the ancient games. A great multitude of spectators usually occupied the circular seats in the amphitheater, from which they could easily behold the combatants; see the notes on 1Co_9:24-27. In like manner, the apostle represents Christians as encompassed with the multitude of worthies to whom he had referred in the previous chapter. It cannot be fairly inferred from this that he means to say that all those ancient worthies were actually looking at the conduct of Christians, and saw their conflicts. It is a figurative representation, such as is common, and means that we ought to act as if they were in sight, and cheered us on. How far the spirits of the just who are departed from this world are permitted to behold what is done on earth - if at all - is not revealed in the Scriptures. The phrase, “a cloud of witnesses,” means many witnesses, or a number so great that they seem to be a cloud. The comparison of a multitude of persons to a cloud is common in the classic writers; see Homer II. 4:274, 23:133; Statius 1:340, and other instances adduced in Wetstein, in loc.; compare notes on 1Th_4:17.
Let us lay aside every weight - The word rendered “weight” - ὄγκον ogkon - means what is crooked or hooked, and thence any thing that is attached or suspended by a hook that is, by its whole weight, and hence means weight; see “Passow.” It does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. The word is often used in the classic writers in the sense of swelling, tumour, pride. Its usual meaning is that of weight or burden, and there is allusion here, doubtless, to the runners in the games who were careful not to encumber themselves with anything that was heavy. Hence, their clothes were so made as not to impede their running, and hence, they were careful in their training not to overburden themselves with food, and in every way to remove what would be an impediment or hindrance. As applied to the racers it does not mean that they began to run with anything like a burden, and then threw it away - as persons sometimes aid their jumping by taking a stone in their hands to acquire increased momentum - but that they were careful not to allow anything that would be a weight or an encumbrance.
As applied to Christians it means that they should remove all which would obstruct their progress in the Christian course. Thus, it is fair to apply it to whatever would be an impediment in our efforts to win the crown of life. It is not the same thing in all persons. In one it may be pride; in another vanity; in another worldliness; in another a violent and almost ungovernable temper; in another a corrupt imagination; in another a heavy, leaden, insensible heart; in another some improper and unholy attachment. Whatever it may be, we are exhorted to lay it aside, and this general direction may be applied to anything which prevents our making the highest possible attainment in the divine life. Some persons would make much more progress if they would throw away many of their personal ornaments; some, if they would disencumber themselves of the heavy weight of gold which they are endeavoring to carry with them. So some very light objects, in themselves considered, become material encumbrances. Even a feather or a ring - such may be the fondness for these toys - may become such a weight that they will never make much progress toward the prize.
And the sin which doth so easily beset us - The word which is here rendered “easily beset” - εὁπερίστατον euperistaton - “euperistaton” - does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. It properly means, “standing well around;” and hence, denotes what is near, or at hand, or readily occurring. So Chrysostom explains it. Passow defines it as meaning “easy to encircle.” Tyndale renders it “the sin that hangeth on us.” Theodoret and others explain the word as if derived from περίστασις peristasis - a word which sometimes means affliction, peril - and hence, regard it as denoting what is full of peril, or the sin which so easily subjects one to calamity. Bloomfield supposes, in accordance with the opinion of Grotius, Crellius, Kype, Kuinoel, and others, that it means “the sin which especially winds around us, and hinders our course,” with allusion to the long Oriental garments. According to this, the meaning would be, that as a runner would be careful not to encumber himself with a garment which would be apt to wind around his legs in running, and hinder him, so it should be with the Christian, who especially ought to lay aside everything which resembles this; that is, all sin, which must impede his course. The former of these interpretations, however, is most commonly adopted, and best agrees with the established sense of the word. It will then mean that we are to lay aside every encumbrance, particularly or especially - for so the word καὶ kai “and,” should be rendered here “the sins to which we are most exposed.” Such sins are appropriately called “easily besetting sins.” They are those to which we are particularly liable. They are such sins as the following:
(1) Those to which we are particularly exposed by our natural temperament, or disposition. In some this is pride, in others indolence, or gaiety, or levity, or avarice, or ambition, or sensuality.
(2) those in which we freely indulged before we became Christians. They will be likely to return with power, and we are far more likely from the laws of association, to fall into them than into any other. Thus, a man who has been intemperate is in special danger from that quarter; a man who has been an infidel, is in special danger of scepticism: one who has been avaricious, proud, frivolous, or ambitious, is in special danger, even after conversion, of again committing these sins.
(3) sins to which we are exposed by our profession, by our relations to others, or by our situation in life. They whose condition will entitle them to associate with what are regarded as the more elevated classes of society, are in special danger of indulging in the methods of living, and of amusement that are common among them; they who are prospered in the world are in danger of losing the simplicity and spirituality of their religion; they who hold a civil office are in danger of becoming mere politicians, and of losing the very form and substance of piety.
(4) sins to which we are exposed from some special weakness in our character. On some points we may be in no danger. We may be constitutionally so firm as not to be especially liable to certain forms of sin. But every man has one or more weak points in his character; and it is there that he is particularly exposed. A bow may be in the main very strong. All along its length there may be no danger of its giving way - save at one place where it has been made too thin, or where the material was defective - and if it ever breaks, it will of course be at that point. That is the point, therefore, which needs to be guarded and strengthened. So in reference to character. There is always some weak point which needs specially to be guarded, and our principal danger is there. Self-knowledge, so necessary in leading a holy life, consists much in searching out those weak points of character where we are most exposed; and our progress in the Christian course will be determined much by the fidelity with which we guard and strengthen them.
And let us run with patience the race that is set before us. - The word rendered “patience” rather means in this place, perseverance. We are to run the race without allowing ourselves to be hindered by any obstructions, and without giving out or fainting in the way. Encouraged by the example of the multitudes who have run the same race before us, and who are now looking out upon us from heaven, where they dwell, we are to persevere as they did to the end.