Evidence for God from Science

I have a question of fairness and salvation, does everyone get a chance?

To make it short:
It is a little puzzling for me. In the past and in some regions of the world, God would not be known by those people.

And is it said that everyone has only one chance of Salvation and one chance of avoiding hell but for those who may have never even heard of God or anything in their lifetime because of various reasons , is it fair?

I need some help and answers on that situation I am describing above.

Suppose I live in a city where homelessness is a serious problem. I go down to my local diner and give the owner $100 and tell him to feed as many people as he can on that money who come in and ask for the meal so long as they mention that I sent them.

I walk downtown and tell a few dozen people about my offer. Some go. Some don't. It is obvious that those who chose not to go can't say anything about the fairness in their not getting a free meal. But what about all the people who I didn't get around to telling? They don't get a meal, either. Does that mean it was unfair of me to give the meal to those who believed my promise that food was waiting for them at the local diner?

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.


Thomas Talbott in the book “Universal Salvation? The Current Debate”. States,

“the whole thrust of Jesus's teaching, moreover, pointed in the same direction. He categorically rejected the prevailing understanding of the retaliatory justice.
Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

the prevailing understanding of limited forgiveness…

Mat 18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

and the prevailing understanding of a limited obligation to love

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Why, according to Jesus, are we to love our enemies as well as our friends? So that we might be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect Why should there be no limit to our forgiveness? So that we might be perfect as even our Father in heaven is perfect. Why must we forsake retaliation of a retributivist kind? So that we might be perfect for even as our Father in heaven is perfect. As I see it, then, we have here overwhelming evidence that God, as Jesus understood him, never ceases to love his own enemies, never ceases forgiving them, and sees no ultimate justice in punishment of the retributivist kind. The idea that we are expected to be better than God is unthinkable.

Our mightiest telescopes through which our astronomers gaze cannot begin to pierce the length and breadth of this universe which God in His omnipotent power has created. We cannot in our finite minds begin to comprehend the power of Him who can create the Milky Way or even the solar system we know. And yet, as limitless and infinite as the power and omnipotence of God is, even so limitless is HIS LOVE. It is without measure and without boundary. It is absolutely illimitable.

When we speak of God's attributes we may say, and many do, that God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal and unchangeable in His being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. This is a very beautiful definition; but it largely defines only God's attributes, whereas the text, "God is Love," tells us WHAT HE HIMSELF IS. This text reveals His nature, His state of being. For instance, in speaking of justice, we know that God has justice as one of His attributes, but He is not justice; God IS love. This fact gives us a revelation of GOD'S VERY NATURE.

This brings us face to face with the great central message of the Bible which is a message of love. We need to remember that the Personage about whom the Bible is written IS LOVE - a Being whose very nature is love. In our day that is something that can become distorted because we live in an age of distortion; we live in a time when even the truth of anything, whether it be the nature of God or the nature of human sexuality, is distorted and perverted. They have used the old shopworn cliché "God is love, God is love, God is love" until love has become such a one-sided, mushy, gooey, syrup-sweet thing, and they have not told about the dark side of the love of God: "Whom the Lord loves, He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives" (Heb. 12:6). They have watered love down, making it sickening rather than stimulating… The balance in the love of God was summed up by the sweet singer of Israel thus: "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other" (Ps. 85:10).

"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son ... beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and HIS LOVE IS PERFECTED IN US" (I Jn. 4:10-12). Can words make it plainer that God's love in Christ is given to pass into us and to become our life? We shall then love God as He loved us. We shall then love one another as Christ has loved us. And we shall then love the world with the same love which God in Christ revealed upon the cross!

Some who read these lines may be bruised and battered by life. Some of you may be lonely and cast down. Some of you may feel all alone. If you are a father, or a mother, then you know something of the love of a parent for a child. You know something of a love that reaches out after a child, even in its waywardness; a love that reaches out to a child that has been hurt; a love that reaches after a child who has deserted its family; a love that NEVER LETS GO. All of that tender compassion of a parent's love is but the faintest shadow of the infinite love of God which knows no measure; a love that, indeed, could never let us or any man go. When we become children of God, we enter into that parental love of God. How sad that so many who call themselves children of God are, as the apostle warned, "without natural affection," stubbornly willing to consign the vast majority of God's wayward sons to everlasting damnation, yea, demanding, as judge and jury, that they be damned, rather than loving them infinitely and omnipotently as God loves them!

Jac3510 wrote:But what about all the people who I didn't get around to telling? They don't get a meal, either. Does that mean it was unfair of me to give the meal to those who believed my promise that food was waiting for them at the local diner?

No, but it does mean that it's unfair if you punish those you never spoke to for not going to the local diner to get the meal no one told them about.

The analogy was designed to look at the fairness of punishment. That's a separate issue. It was designed to look at the fairness of a limited offer of salvation. You, then, agree that a limited offer of salvation is fair. Hopefully so can the OP.

Don't read something into an argument it isn't designed to deal with. If you want to bring up an objection, bring it up in its own right.

Jac3510 wrote:The analogy was designed to look at the fairness of punishment.

I think you need a 'not' in there somewhere.

That's a separate issue.

I agree. But it was the issue raised by the OP, and should be addressed. The other issue is whether or not it's fair to offer salvation to some and deliberately not offer it to others. You only asked it if was fair to give a meal to those who believed your promise (which it is), but the OP asked if it was fair to only restrict the promise to a certain number in the first place. You didn't actually address that.

It was designed to look at the fairness of a limited offer of salvation. You, then, agree that a limited offer of salvation is fair.

Yes I do. But you haven't addressed the OP's issue.

Don't read something into an argument it isn't designed to deal with.

I didn't. I just pointed out that you didn't address the OP's issue.

My answer...

Fairness and Grace are opposites. In fairness, no one should be allowed to go to heaven. Thanks be to God for His amazing grace.

Gal 6:10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Yes, we should do good to all men! And especially our fellow believers!

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Yea, try and figure that one out! Let's try anyway shall we?

2Sa 14:14 "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him.

What? Surely this does not figure in with 1ti 4:10!

Isa 52:10 The LORD has bared His holy arm In the sight of all the nations, That all the ends of the earth may see The salvation of our God.

“All” or just the 5% of humanity who have the privilege of having heard his word?


Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

The second ALL men here is ALL wrong! Only the first All men are correct! Right?

Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Show mercy in Hell! Right?

1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We are not saved through fire!!! Uh Oh does it say through? (dia) ?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

This is just as wrong as Rom 5:18! Only the first "All" applies! Right!

2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
No no no! This is all wrong too! not counting their trespasses?


1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

What proper time? Only 5 % of humanity have ever even heard of Jesus! This is all wrong! He gave Himself a ransom to the 5% that have heard of Him!

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Taste death for everyone? Surely not! He must taste eternal torment for everyone! Clearly Cain was warned of eternal torment! Clearly Sodom and Gomorrah was warned of eternal torment! Clearly in the days of Noah they were warned of eternal torment! Who care if it not in our scriptures! We know the truth! So what if Sodom will be restored!
Eze 16:55; Eze 16:62; Eze 16:63 so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done," the Lord GOD declares.


1Jo 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
No, he means only ours! Not the worlds. Just read 1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Oops ?

I regard to Pierac verses and questions:
All are forgiven. But not all accept that they are forgiven. If I forgive someone that has done something wrong to me but they deny that what they did was wrong, even though they know deep in their heart that it was, then although I have forgiven them, forgiveness is not complete until they have accepted the forgiveness. Many people hear the Gospel of their salvation but either believe 1. Their sin was too great and they do not deserve to be forgiven. Or 2. They have not committed a sin that needs forgiveness. But regardless God still has forgiveness for all people.

As for the OP question:
These are just the thoughts of one man, so take them with a grain of salt.
I believe your question is the reason that we have the Great commision, to make disciples throughout the world.

I also think that scripture shows us that God knows our own hearts and desires better than we do. He knows who will be saved and who will not. He knows that there are some out there that there hearts are so hardened that they will never receive the gift of forgiveness. Some he knows will receive the gift but they are not yet ready to hear it. And some he knows are ready to hear it now.

I think we are held more accountable by God for those things we know to be true.
Therefore, I suspect that those that never heard the Gospel are judged less harshly in Hell. But for those that heard the Gospel and rejected it they will be judged more Harshly.

So, for this reasoning I think God only sends someone to share the Gospel to those that He knows will receive it.
I believe that it is at these times that the Holy spirit is working in us.

Some times someone hears the Gospel that does not ever receive it. I believe this may be the will of man that is sharing the Gospel. He may be just sharing with the wrong motive. He may not be listening to the Holy Spirit. In any case when this happens it is not from God. For this Christian that particular work of sharing the Gospel will be burned up because it was not by God's grace under the power of the Holy Spirit that he was sharing the Gospel. It was by the power of man and his sinful nature that He thought he was serving God, when he was really only serving himself.

Could it be that because of His mercy, God will not send someone to share the Gospel to someone whom he knows will not receive it, unless of course He knows this is the catalyst necessary for someone else to receive salvation? I think this might be possible.

But man, If he is not listening to the HS, MAY share the Gospel to those who God knows will not receive it, but they will receive the harsher condemnation. But either way God is glorified.

God knows all of our hearts and how each of us will react to an infinite number of a infinite series of circumstances. God can bring about those circumstances and still give us the free will to decide how to live our life. Because of this God also knows that some people will never receive the Gospel, because he forsees no possible set of circumstances that this person would receive it, unless God were to force their will to do so.

Could God force us to obey? Yes, but he does not. He wants our obedience, because we love him, not because he forced us to. This would not be love. We would then be robots. But the world is too imperfect for that to be the case.

I am not completely committed to all of these ideas. I am just thinking out loud (so to speak). Do any of you see any flaws behind this train of thought?

YLTYLT wrote:I regard to Pierac verses and questions:
All are forgiven. But not all accept that they are forgiven. If I forgive someone that has done something wrong to me but they deny that what they did was wrong, even though they know deep in their heart that it was, then although I have forgiven them, forgiveness is not complete until they have accepted the forgiveness.

Where is that in the Bible? If you're forgiven, then it doesn't matter if you accept it or not - the fact is that you're forgiven.

My understanding is that God does not want all men to be saved in their life time. Let me show you some scriptures that may be beneficial to our discusion.
ESV Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

There is no free will or choice here, it has been removed by God who hardened their heart. Clearly these people would have repented if they were not hardened. The point is clear “lest they turn and be forgiven.” Why would God purposely refuse to let them hear and Repent ? Was it because Satan was too powerful or because it was not their appointed time?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, (remainder) when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

So what about Satan? Yes, in most people's theology He is a fallen angel! Such that God had no control over!

Mar 4:15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.

Now most people's God created such a powerful being that He can only watch him completely destroy His loving plans for humanity by plucking away His word (logos). This must really suck for their God!

It seems the supremely powerful Satan just plucks out the weak words of God right out of the minds of God's own children. Yep, your theology has God helpless and only able but to watch Satan beat up his creation and if he is lucky, He can come to earth and die for the whole world then MAYBE a very few will accept him and be saved from Satan's more powerful hell. I don't think so!

First of all Hell is destroyed in the Lake of Fire! Now what is the Lake of fire? First we need to do a word study on the word lake! Let's look at Strong's definition of the word!

LAKE G3041 Λίμνη limnē
Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.

A POND? Yes, Satan and hell are thrown into the pond of fire! That's one hell of a pond! (Pun intended!)

Now what's in the pond? Fire, Oh my! But then there is brimstone! Nooo, not that! Hey, wait a minute what is brimstone anyway? Well, let's look and see!

G2303 θεῖον theion
Probably neuter of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur: - brimstone.

What? SULPHUR? What the Hell is sulphur used for? (Pun intended) It seems it was used as an purifying agent in past times! What? A purifying Lake of Fire? surly not?
Could this fit with Mal 3:2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.

Who is like a refiner's fire? Heb 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Mar 9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire. Everyone or only those in the pond?

Luk 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Is there any brimstone in this fire?

Isa 4:4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, What? By the spirit of burning He has washed away the filth?

1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. What fire will test our work?

Rev 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
What is the second death?

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

What? Those who overcome must go through the pond of fire, yet shall not be hurt?
Could the pond of fire be the death of death? The destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord?

1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

My God is Lord over Satan, and uses him for his propose! My God always has Satan where he is needed!


Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


Yet, your theology tells us he could not keep the Satan the god of this world from taking away the (Logos) from His creation! Mar 4:15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word (logos) which has been sown in them.

Whose God is in control? Yours or mine?



YLTYLT, you will never understand God's word until you understand one little word twisted by most translations!

That word is Strong' number G165 αἰών aiōn

I challenge any one here on this forum to give me a word used in any scientific study or journal that has such a conflict in meaning as this word and is accepted, as this definition prescribed by the theologians of our Bible. An Age has a beginning and an end! Eternity is timeless! The two definitions are incompatible! The word World is also incompatible with eternity, yet no one blinks an eye!

Our King James version renders it, together with the adjective aionios as: "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture!

And now in reviewing the Scriptures we have just quoted, we note that this aion is something which has a king; it has princes; it is in darkness; it had a beginning; it has an ending; it is evil; it has wisdom; it has children who marry; it has cares. The aions we find were made through (dia) Christ, and we also find in Col. 1:26 that the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory, has been hidden from these aions.

If I was to write a scientific journal and describe the color Black as very dark, a shade of night, gray, a type of bone white, you would scream bloody murder, yet theologians get a blank pass in their definitions of an Age. Yes, it seems an age can also mean eternity if it's in the bible! Yet try that in a scientific journal.

In order to find the truth you must be looking for it. Are you looking for the truth or do you think you already have it? I'm still looking and learning many amazing truths. My journey has just begun.

puritan lad wrote:My answer...

Fairness and Grace are opposites. In fairness, no one should be allowed to go to heaven. Thanks be to God for His amazing grace.

Amen!

In order to find the truth you must be looking for it. Are you looking for the truth or do you think you already have it? I'm still looking and learning many amazing truths. My journey has just begun.

I hear you. Sometimes it helps to give something a second and third look even if it seemed to leave a bad taste in your mouth the first time. God grant us your wisdom.

Pierac wrote:YLTYLT, you will never understand God's word until you understand one little word twisted by most translations!

That word is Strong' number G165 αἰών aiōn

I challenge any one here on this forum to give me a word used in any scientific study or journal that has such a conflict in meaning as this word and is accepted, as this definition prescribed by the theologians of our Bible. An Age has a beginning and an end! Eternity is timeless! The two definitions are incompatible! The word World is also incompatible with eternity, yet no one blinks an eye!

Our King James version renders it, together with the adjective aionios as: "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture!

And now in reviewing the Scriptures we have just quoted, we note that this aion is something which has a king; it has princes; it is in darkness; it had a beginning; it has an ending; it is evil; it has wisdom; it has children who marry; it has cares. The aions we find were made through (dia) Christ, and we also find in Col. 1:26 that the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory, has been hidden from these aions.

If I was to write a scientific journal and describe the color Black as very dark, a shade of night, gray, a type of bone white, you would scream bloody murder, yet theologians get a blank pass in their definitions of an Age. Yes, it seems an age can also mean eternity if it's in the bible! Yet try that in a scientific journal.

I'm going to enter into disagreement with you over the word AIWN, and your apparently Universalist stance. I've been through all the standard issues with a Universalist in two separate debates (here and here). Important posts on AIWN are here, here, and here.

I also take issue with the idea that the lake of fire is for the purpose of purification. The fact that even 'hades' is thrown into it demonstrates that the purpose of the lake of fire is destruction, not purification (you cannot 'purify' death).

Hi Fortigurn, I will try to read your links, work is starting to pick up so time is getting short. Thanks


Edit... Did I read correctly? Do you have over 36,200 post on that site? Are you retired?

Paul