The New Heavens

[dad]

The new heaven and earth will not be the same as this present universe! These heavens and earth as we know it will pass away.

Science cannot say a thing about it.

The tree of life grows fruit every month, and there is a light there, there is unlike light man has known, not the light of the sun. The sun and earth and stars will never decay away there, but last forever. Man will not die, but live forever.
Gravity will not limit us, any more than time, as we will also be able to fly. Even New Jerusalem as big almost as the moon, comes down to earth, defying gravity as we know it now.

This means that we are in a temporary state at the moment, that cannot last. Yet it is this state that is the basis for 'natural' science'. A science that cannot be extended into the future, save by dreams!

When did this temporary state start?? Creation? The fall?? After the flood??? At the flood?? This is another question that science cannot address! They simply assume it was always here.

[Harry12345]

The new heaven and earth will not be the same as this present universe! These heavens and earth as we know it will pass away.

Science cannot say a thing about it.

The tree of life grows fruit every month, and there is a light there, there is unlike light man has known, not the light of the sun. The sun and earth and stars will never decay away there, but last forever. Man will not die, but live forever.
Gravity will not limit us, any more than time, as we will also be able to fly. Even New Jerusalem as big almost as the moon, comes down to earth, defying gravity as we know it now.

This means that we are in a temporary state at the moment, that cannot last. Yet it is this state that is the basis for 'natural' science'. A science that cannot be extended into the future, save by dreams!

When did this temporary state start?? Creation? The fall?? After the flood??? At the flood?? This is another question that science cannot address! They simply assume it was always here.

I'd say it started at Creation. Adam and Eve were mortal when they were created, and the second law of thermodynamics was in effect at this time.

[dad]

I'd say it started at Creation. Adam and Eve were mortal when they were created, and the second law of thermodynamics was in effect at this time.

That you actually don't know. In fact many believe that Adam was made to live forever. The tree of life, even after the fall would have restored this eternal state, as the bible says. That means that the state of the universe could not have changed then. Why? Because that would mean that the earth and sun were as they now are, and could not also last forever. (If Adam ate the tree again, and lived forever, the sun and earth would not last for him to live on) There is no reason to assume that the present laws were in effect, on the contrary, they could not have been.
Another indication is the tree of life that was there still. Later in the bible we get details of this tree of life, and how it grows fruit every month. Trees cannot do that now.

Yet another possible indication is the light that was there before the stars and sun. In heaven also, we see there is a different light, but we are in the new heavens there.

Another indication is the state of matter, and rock. Under the present laws, we cannot separate the whole planet's water from land, moving it around, and expect to have life put on the planet in a few days! There would be too much heat. The same concept applies at the flood time, with the aters that were above. Even water coming down under the present state laws would likely, say many scientists, steam all life to death in a hurry. Again, we know that the land masses separated. This could not happen in a bible timeframe without cooking all life. Too much heat involved if we have rapid separation under this present state universe laws.

That is the reason that many have tried to interpret days as something other than days, etc. The two just don't jive. If the universe was different, it does jive.

Another reason that the different state fast evolving of created life could not have stopped (universe change of state) is that it was REQUIRED after the flood as well. The ark was not big enough, and a lot of rapid evolving of kinds had to occur to give us the thirty odd species of tigers, and whatnots we now have.

In other words, if the bible is actually real stories that actually happened, the state of the past has to have been like the state of the coming new heavens.

[Harry12345]

So, let me get this straight: you believe Adam was made to live for ever in this universe, right? Living forever in an imperfect world? Um... no. Just no. Instead, he was made mortal in this universe, he was only put on this Earth to make a choice - reject God or obey him. Adam would have died after ~900 years after living in the garden and would have gone to Heaven or Hell depending on which choice he made. He did choose wrong, but God was gracious and merciful and gave him a second chance. That's the way I see it.

[dad]

So, let me get this straight: you believe Adam was made to live for ever in this universe, right? Living forever in an imperfect world?

Who says the world was imperfect when he was made, and still was to live forever?? That I don't think you can support with the bible. The imperfections came later.

Um... no. Just no. Instead, he was made mortal in this universe, he was only put on this Earth to make a choice - reject God or obey him.

Well, we did have a choice, yes. What that has to do with being imperfect, I have no idea. We were made in His image, so He has choice as well. Is He imperfect as well according to you???
(Of course the ground we walk on, or surface of the earth did get real imperfect fast at the fall, as it was cursed. But the heavens above, and earth deep below may still have been in the original state! That would explain why we lived so long, etc.

Adam would have died after ~900 years after living in the garden and would have gone to Heaven or Hell depending on which choice he made.

That is conjecture, based on the lifespans we had after the fall. Period.

He did choose wrong, but God was gracious and merciful and gave him a second chance. That's the way I see it.

True. That was why the savior was promised from the beginning. But the issue here is the state of this universe and earth we stand on, not whether He had a plan to save us.

I think almost all believers would admit that it will not be the same, and that this heavens and earth we know, as is, is temporary. Your point is that it was made temporary. I lean toward the state of the universe having been changed to this temporary state, and that the true eternal state is simply different. Both in the past, and in the future.

If this was the case, the flood really did happen, there really was water above the earth, and etc!

Since science cannot challenge that idea, and it leaves the future and past as the bible says, why not accept it???

[Harry12345]

The world was still imperfect before the fall; Adam and Eve could have sinned if they'd taken the fruit from the Tree of Knwoledge. That's not perfection.

In the Heaven that is yet to come, there will be no sinning AT ALL. That's perfection.

This universe was never perfect, it had a perfect purpose.

But yeah, I agree with everything else.

[dad]

The world was still imperfect before the fall; Adam and Eve could have sinned if they'd taken the fruit from the Tree of Knwoledge. That's not perfection.

Well, you could say heaven was not perfect, because some angels rebelled, I suppose. But the issue is not the morals, but the actual state of the universe in the future, or past. We cannot live forever, if you notice, nor can the sun, and earth, in this state heavens and earth. Since Adam could have it had to be another state. Just as it has to be another state in the future, where we live forever. Plant growth rates, and the state of matter, and light, and decay, and the fundamental forces have to be different.

Whether you think the eternal state was or will be perfect is a separate issue. After all, there will still be a lake of fire at the start of the new heaven state. Is that perfect?? There will still be some tears that need wiping away. Is that perfect? There will still be, outside the city, nations in need of some sort of healing, is that perfect??

But the state of the universe will no longer be this state heavens and earth, but the eternal state.

In the Heaven that is yet to come, there will be no sinning AT ALL. That's perfection.

The heaven or New Jerusalem that is coming will be full of saved people, yes. Outside that city, will still be people that need ruling, and healing. Sudden perfection is not the issue, but what the state of the universe is at the time. Perfection for man could take a while. But the tree of life growth rates, non decaying away of the sun, and stars and earth, and etc. all mean that this temporary state of the universe we call natural, will be no more.

This universe was never perfect, it had a perfect purpose.

Your idea of perfection bears no relation to the state of the universe in the past or future. Claiming that free choice is imperfect is merely an opinion on how God did things. The earth was anything but perfect at the time of Babel, yet there was a spiritual layer of some sort near the world of man, on the surface of the earth. They tried to get up physically to it with the tower! The spirits or sons of god at the time even had kids with earth girls. Yet those sons of god were immortals, and not subject to the cursed surface physical only laws and limits of man!

But yeah, I agree with everything else.

OK.