Evidence for God from Science

I decided to start a new thread rather than have a different one go off topic.

In another thread, (the one about my baby ) i mentioned my ten-year-old having troubles (his name is Josh).

Well, Josh is bipolar and struggles a lot with anger. A lot. My wife gets home from work at 2:30, about the same time he gets home from school. They have problems. He says she's mean (but when he is in trouble or does something wrong, isn't she supposed to yell at him? [i use the word yell losely, she doesn't ever yell] I certainly do). He will get mad at her if she tells him to do something (ie take out the trash, clean your room, whatever). But moments after he explodes (and i mean explodes), he is fine and sorry and sweet as anything. This never happens when i'm home, but i don't get home until 6:30.

Anyway, it's obvious he cares a lot about her. He says she doesn't act like she loves him (breaking her little pregnant heart right now). But the only time she yells at him, it is because he has done something wrong. I know he is acting up for attention, but how do we give him attention and punish him for acting up at the same time?

Also, i hate him being on bipolar medication. It kills me. But my wife (and his doctor) say he needs it. I'm lost. Comepletely lost.
Been praying a lot. A friend of mine gave me a number for FOcus on the Family. They apparently have programs for kids like him. Haven't called them yet.

Anyway, any advice?

Not that I have any personal experience in this specific situation....so please understand I am just thinking out loud here

Sometimes I have heard that it helps to have all of the chores and expectations established and written out in some contractual agreement. Certainly they teach you in education classes that the classroom rules should be clearly established and that the consequences are outlined. Can't imagine a home situation is too different.

Maybe this could help. I mean, in his rational mometns, you guys could sit down with him, pray with him, and explain to him the expectations. When he comes home from school, he needs to...., If he do not, then this will be what happens.....No arguments, no negotiations, no discussion.....did not help with setting the table, no TV. No argument, no discussion. You could write this up and create a contract that becomes an easy reference....

I know from teaching that sometimes you can also have them participate in the discussion. He must do some chores when he gets home. Is there a list of four or five that he could then choose two or three to get done? This might allow him to feel part of the decisions. But you have established that you and your wife are the ones who will mete out the consequence. And there could be one or two that are non-negotiable.

In the emotional moments, it is tempting to engage in the debate, as if you should be able to argue him to your side. But there really does not need to be any debate, especially in the emotioanl times. At that point, all you have to say is "No discussion... consequence" "This is non-negotioable" ESPECIALLY in the emotional, irrational moments. (I spent a frustrating couple of years as a beginning teacher thinking that I must win every argument, disciplining became a lot easier when I simply would look at the student and say....no discussion....you broke the rule....here's the conseuence. ) and tyo be honest....it becomes a bit of a relief to the students....you are calm, you are not reacting in *response* to their emotion but simply following the rules. That very "impersonal" reaction allows me to then get back to being a teacher. "Yeah, you were late....this is the third tardy to class....here's the detention....no discussion....let's get back to class..." and then you can give them attention in the class that's appropriate attention.


On the flip side....is he tired after school, could he benefit from some sort of palnned downtime? quiet time? Could this be a moment that he and your wife could share a snack and "vent" together? I remember fondly coming home from school and having a snack with my mom while I briefed her on the day. Then it was on to homework Some days this meant crying, some days just being tired at the kitchen table. Maybe this could be a prayer time? Just brainstroming here....

And this might be a silly question....but does he get recess at school? Could he be frustrated with energy? I am constantly amazed at the energy the boys at school have....I think they could play ALL day long. They play before school, they play at lunchtime, and they play in gym, and they play after school....(youth is wasted on the young )

NOT THAT THIS EXCUSES INSOLENCE OR RUDENESS, but just thinking of simple reasons for frustration....

Does he give you any reasons for afternoons as being particularly frustrating?

Sounds like me when I was younger. I was the "problem child" and labelled depressed, anger problems, etc.

I had OCD and extreme anger. In retrospect, I readily see it was caused by the great anxiety produced in the home environment by my own mother who always screamed. Everything was always out of control. Things may be different with you guys, however my acting out, especially at a young age (8-12 years) I see was a reflection of the turmoil in the home environment.

It may not be your wife yelling, but I think a good way I think to test whether it is the home environment is to let him stay with someone else for say 2-3 weeks (grandparents or close friends perhaps). If he normalises and they report him being fairly well adjusted then I would say you need to look more closely back at home to analyse whether there is in fact anything making him feel out of control.

Just talking from my own experience.

Kurieuo wrote:Sounds like me when I was younger. I was the "problem child" and labelled depressed, anger problems, etc.

I had OCD and extreme anger. In retrospect, I readily see it was caused by the great anxiety produced in the home environment by my own mother who always screamed. Everything was always out of control. Things may be different with you guys, however my acting out, especially at a young age (8-12 years) I see was a reflection of the turmoil in the home environment.

It may not be your wife yelling, but I think a good way I think to test whether it is the home environment is to let him stay with someone else for say 2-3 weeks (grandparents or close friends perhaps). If he normalises and they report him being fairly well adjusted then I would say you need to look more closely back at home to analyse whether there is in fact anything making him feel out of control.

Just talking from my own experience.

Is there anything else going on with him that you may not know about? Perhaps problems at school? Bad influences? I was a problem child and full of anger and self centered. I think it came from feeling like nobody liked me, and being insecure and out of control. It was just easier to take stuff out on people at home.

zoegirl wrote:Maybe this could help. I mean, in his rational mometns, you guys could sit down with him, pray with him, and explain to him the expectations. When he comes home from school, he needs to...., If he do not, then this will be what happens.....No arguments, no negotiations, no discussion.....did not help with setting the table, no TV. No argument, no discussion. You could write this up and create a contract that becomes an easy reference....

I know from teaching that sometimes you can also have them participate in the discussion. He must do some chores when he gets home. Is there a list of four or five that he could then choose two or three to get done? This might allow him to feel part of the decisions. But you have established that you and your wife are the ones who will mete out the consequence. And there could be one or two that are non-negotiable.

In the emotional moments, it is tempting to engage in the debate, as if you should be able to argue him to your side. But there really does not need to be any debate, especially in the emotioanl times. At that point, all you have to say is "No discussion... consequence" "This is non-negotioable" ESPECIALLY in the emotional, irrational moments. (I spent a frustrating couple of years as a beginning teacher thinking that I must win every argument, disciplining became a lot easier when I simply would look at the student and say....no discussion....you broke the rule....here's the conseuence. ) and tyo be honest....it becomes a bit of a relief to the students....you are calm, you are not reacting in *response* to their emotion but simply following the rules. That very "impersonal" reaction allows me to then get back to being a teacher. "Yeah, you were late....this is the third tardy to class....here's the detention....no discussion....let's get back to class..." and then you can give them attention in the class that's appropriate attention.

We do this very often. We never really debate or argue with him. For example, he got a clarinet from my mom and we are going to buy a reed (sp) today after school. I said "if you are good until then" (or somehting along those lines) then we will get one after school.

never wrote it down, might try that.

zoegirl wrote:Could this be a moment that he and your wife could share a snack and "vent" together? I remember fondly coming home from school and having a snack with my mom while I briefed her on the day.

This is a really good idea. He likes talking to her. It might be a good thing.

[quote"zoegirl"]Does he give you any reasons for afternoons as being particularly frustrating?[/quote]

We get a lot "things make me mad." And it can be anything. I got punished at school, i wasn't first in line, the cat scratched me, Keon (his two-year-old cousin) was crying. It seems he doesn't know how to control his anger.

Kurieuo wrote:Sounds like me when I was younger. I was the "problem child" and labelled depressed, anger problems, etc.

I had OCD and extreme anger. In retrospect, I readily see it was caused by the great anxiety produced in the home environment by my own mother who always screamed. Everything was always out of control. Things may be different with you guys, however my acting out, especially at a young age (8-12 years) I see was a reflection of the turmoil in the home environment.

It may not be your wife yelling, but I think a good way I think to test whether it is the home environment is to let him stay with someone else for say 2-3 weeks (grandparents or close friends perhaps). If he normalises and they report him being fairly well adjusted then I would say you need to look more closely back at home to analyse whether there is in fact anything making him feel out of control.

Just talking from my own experience.

Yelling was a very bad word choice for me. She doesn't actually raise her voice. I've always used the word yelling when i mean to say disciplining or grounding or punishing or any of the above. When she says, you need to go to your room now, i would use the word yelling even if she didn't raise her voice. So yelling is a bad word for the particular situation.

Also, he only came to live with us since november of last year. He was MUCH MUCH worse then. He would spray toothpaste on the floor, yell and scream over nothing. And i mean nothing. But since he has been with us, he has better control of his anger and his medications have gone way down. Way way down.

When he lived with his adoptive mother (same adoptive mother as my wife) he was much worse.

FFC wrote:Is there anything else going on with him that you may not know about? Perhaps problems at school? Bad influences? I was a problem child and full of anger and self centered. I think it came from feeling like nobody liked me, and being insecure and out of control. It was just easier to take stuff out on people at home.

My sister-in-law and her husband and two-year-old have just moved in. They have nowhere else to live. And now my wife is pregnant. I think it is a combination of the above doing it. A lot new stressers in the house.

zoegirl wrote:Maybe this could help. I mean, in his rational mometns, you guys could sit down with him, pray with him, and explain to him the expectations. When he comes home from school, he needs to...., If he do not, then this will be what happens.....No arguments, no negotiations, no discussion.....did not help with setting the table, no TV. No argument, no discussion. You could write this up and create a contract that becomes an easy reference....

I know from teaching that sometimes you can also have them participate in the discussion. He must do some chores when he gets home. Is there a list of four or five that he could then choose two or three to get done? This might allow him to feel part of the decisions. But you have established that you and your wife are the ones who will mete out the consequence. And there could be one or two that are non-negotiable.

In the emotional moments, it is tempting to engage in the debate, as if you should be able to argue him to your side. But there really does not need to be any debate, especially in the emotioanl times. At that point, all you have to say is "No discussion... consequence" "This is non-negotioable" ESPECIALLY in the emotional, irrational moments. (I spent a frustrating couple of years as a beginning teacher thinking that I must win every argument, disciplining became a lot easier when I simply would look at the student and say....no discussion....you broke the rule....here's the conseuence. ) and tyo be honest....it becomes a bit of a relief to the students....you are calm, you are not reacting in *response* to their emotion but simply following the rules. That very "impersonal" reaction allows me to then get back to being a teacher. "Yeah, you were late....this is the third tardy to class....here's the detention....no discussion....let's get back to class..." and then you can give them attention in the class that's appropriate attention.

We do this very often. We never really debate or argue with him. For example, he got a clarinet from my mom and we are going to buy a reed (sp) today after school. I said "if you are good until then" (or somehting along those lines) then we will get one after school.

never wrote it down, might try that.

zoegirl wrote:Could this be a moment that he and your wife could share a snack and "vent" together? I remember fondly coming home from school and having a snack with my mom while I briefed her on the day.

This is a really good idea. He likes talking to her. It might be a good thing.

[quote"zoegirl"]Does he give you any reasons for afternoons as being particularly frustrating?[/quote]

We get a lot "things make me mad." And it can be anything. I got punished at school, i wasn't first in line, the cat scratched me, Keon (his two-year-old cousin) was crying. It seems he doesn't know how to control his anger.

Kurieuo wrote:Sounds like me when I was younger. I was the "problem child" and labelled depressed, anger problems, etc.

I had OCD and extreme anger. In retrospect, I readily see it was caused by the great anxiety produced in the home environment by my own mother who always screamed. Everything was always out of control. Things may be different with you guys, however my acting out, especially at a young age (8-12 years) I see was a reflection of the turmoil in the home environment.

It may not be your wife yelling, but I think a good way I think to test whether it is the home environment is to let him stay with someone else for say 2-3 weeks (grandparents or close friends perhaps). If he normalises and they report him being fairly well adjusted then I would say you need to look more closely back at home to analyse whether there is in fact anything making him feel out of control.

Just talking from my own experience.

Yelling was a very bad word choice for me. She doesn't actually raise her voice. I've always used the word yelling when i mean to say disciplining or grounding or punishing or any of the above. When she says, you need to go to your room now, i would use the word yelling even if she didn't raise her voice. So yelling is a bad word for the particular situation.

Also, he only came to live with us since november of last year. He was MUCH MUCH worse then. He would spray toothpaste on the floor, yell and scream over nothing. And i mean nothing. But since he has been with us, he has better control of his anger and his medications have gone way down. Way way down.

When he lived with his adoptive mother (same adoptive mother as my wife) he was much worse.

FFC wrote:Is there anything else going on with him that you may not know about? Perhaps problems at school? Bad influences? I was a problem child and full of anger and self centered. I think it came from feeling like nobody liked me, and being insecure and out of control. It was just easier to take stuff out on people at home.

My sister-in-law and her husband and two-year-old have just moved in. They have nowhere else to live. And now my wife is pregnant. I think it is a combination of the above doing it. A lot new stressers in the house.

enigma wrote:We get a lot "things make me mad." And it can be anything. I got punished at school, i wasn't first in line, the cat scratched me, Keon (his two-year-old cousin) was crying. It seems he doesn't know how to control his anger.

Sounds like the proverbial hitting the nail on the head. If during the day he is building up experiences that are making him angry, he comes homes and everything just comes out.

The fact that he does so well with you other times of the day or is doing better with you I would think means that he does want to do well and just struggles to handle his anger.

I would think a combination of talking with your wife and/or just having some playtime after school before the chores start might help diffuse his anger and might help him gain perspective.

SOunds like you are doing marvelously well...keep it up!!

zoegirl wrote:If during the day he is building up experiences that are making him angry, he comes homes and everything just comes out.

But it usually doesn't seem to be a building up of experiences. It's something sudden, and then in a flash it's over. If he wants a snack and he can't have one (too late, too close to dinner, whatever) he will sometimes flip out and then a few minutes later he is really sorry.

BOy, that's tough.

How about asking him about the rules the next time he asks? Direct him to verbalize....?

"What's our rule about snacks right before dinner?"

I know my sister-in-law will allow things like carrots or apples and will say to them when they ask for a snack "you may have..."

Sometimes if I have a student that is prone to these sudden reactions, I will approach them as they enter the classroom and remind them (pre-emptive strikes ) of whatever the problems are.

Sorry, my experience is primarily with teenagers....hopefully some more parents will offer some advice.

Dunno...Keep praying

Enigma7457 wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Sounds like me when I was younger. I was the "problem child" and labelled depressed, anger problems, etc.

I had OCD and extreme anger. In retrospect, I readily see it was caused by the great anxiety produced in the home environment by my own mother who always screamed. Everything was always out of control. Things may be different with you guys, however my acting out, especially at a young age (8-12 years) I see was a reflection of the turmoil in the home environment.

It may not be your wife yelling, but I think a good way I think to test whether it is the home environment is to let him stay with someone else for say 2-3 weeks (grandparents or close friends perhaps). If he normalises and they report him being fairly well adjusted then I would say you need to look more closely back at home to analyse whether there is in fact anything making him feel out of control.

Just talking from my own experience.

Yelling was a very bad word choice for me. She doesn't actually raise her voice. I've always used the word yelling when i mean to say disciplining or grounding or punishing or any of the above. When she says, you need to go to your room now, i would use the word yelling even if she didn't raise her voice. So yelling is a bad word for the particular situation.

Also, he only came to live with us since november of last year. He was MUCH MUCH worse then. He would spray toothpaste on the floor, yell and scream over nothing. And i mean nothing. But since he has been with us, he has better control of his anger and his medications have gone way down. Way way down.

When he lived with his adoptive mother (same adoptive mother as my wife) he was much worse.

Ahh, that puts a different spin on things if he has only been with you since November.

Situation sounds complicated so no wonder. Just hang in there as much as possible and be there for him. The people I remember the fondest when I was young who knew somewhat of what went on are those who treated me normally and not as someone with a problem. I think you guys are doing well if you have noticed great improvements already. So it is just a matter of being able to hang in there during the tough times and keep showing love.

Not much help I know...

Had another 'episode' yesterday. It was over nothing, like it sometimes is, but he got very angry and took it out on his stuff.

I sat down with him when i got home from work. After talking a while, he said he didn't feel like my wife cared about him. To me, it sounded very much like he was still a little angry. That and the distraction from the pregnancy and the new people in house may have divided her time more than he would like.

Maybe what i said next wasn't exactly perfect, but it seemed to hit a spot and he reacted differently than he had ever before. I said that she did care very much about him. I said that we had made huge sacrifaces in adopting him. If we didn't care about him, he'd be gone. But we care a lot, and we aren't planning on giving up. I tried to be as firm and loving as possible, and i think he got the message.

We'll see what happens.

Enigma7457 wrote:Had another 'episode' yesterday. It was over nothing, like it sometimes is, but he got very angry and took it out on his stuff.

I sat down with him when i got home from work. After talking a while, he said he didn't feel like my wife cared about him. To me, it sounded very much like he was still a little angry. That and the distraction from the pregnancy and the new people in house may have divided her time more than he would like.

Maybe what i said next wasn't exactly perfect, but it seemed to hit a spot and he reacted differently than he had ever before. I said that she did care very much about him. I said that we had made huge sacrifaces in adopting him. If we didn't care about him, he'd be gone. But we care a lot, and we aren't planning on giving up. I tried to be as firm and loving as possible, and i think he got the message.

We'll see what happens.

I think you are doing great. It sounds like it may be some insecurity surfacing as anger. They do say the root of anger is fear. You may have many more episodes, but I feel like this may be necessary for him until he really sees that you guys aren't going anywhere. Of couse I'm not a parent, so take everything i say with a grain of salt.

Sounds like you have been given some insight here. Praise God!! I will be praying for you and your wife and son. In the end, isn't is simply amazing how strong and effecvtive the power of prayer can be? Keep praying with him....make it a habit and make it a constant response to problems.

zoegirl wrote:Sounds like you have been given some insight here

I certainly have. Thank you everybody.

I hate to be the one to get this thread going again, but here it is.

The past week or two have been worse than ever. I seem to get a call everyday about Josh's behavior and i am running out of things to do. I've tried everything.

My wife suggested a while ago and i am starting to believe it: Maybe we are not the best home for him. Maybe we need to let someone else try. He has been with us almost a year, and although his medicine has gone down a lot and his outbursts are less violent (i think), he seems to have regressed. And i mean regressed a lot. Everyday i get a call, everyday he loses his temper. Everyday.

Maybe we aren't the right home for him. It's killing me. I've fought the idea of giving up on him for a long time. I always thought that us "abandoning him" would set him back, i thought that giving up was the easy way out and we shouldn't do it. And (unfortunately) i was afraid of what people would think of me. But, as time wears on, i think it might be hurting him rather than helping him to stay with us. I'm afraid i'm not giving up because of my stubborn pride (i hate quitting). I'm afraid that i'm only keeping him so people don't think i'm a bad person (again, stubborn pride).

I don't want to give him up, i really don't. But if he stays with us, it needs to be for the right reasons. And, the right reasons don't seem to be good reasons to keep him with us. It may be setting him farther back and i don't want my pride to cost him a year of his life that he could have spent improving. He may need something we can't give.

What do i do?